Map Thread VII

[Nekromans]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

Yes beside the changes, in diet and prayer, we would likely also see Nordic Islam take up much of the organisation structure of Norse paganism. That would be a much more radical changes, ironic the closest comparison would likely be Iranian structure, with a strong and organised priesthood of mullahs rather than the more rabbinic structure of Imams much as the rest of Islam follows. The isolation from the rest of Islam and the heretical doctrines would likely also mean a move away from using Arabic to any large degree.

So would a Islamic branch which doesn't have haram/halal duality, have fewer prayers, use a solar year rather than lunar, allow drinking, have a organised priesthood and use Norse as church language really be Islamic?

It's very different to Islam, certainly, but I don't think the difference is too much larger than the difference between (say) Lutheranism and the Coptic Church.

[TotrueTufaar]

Originally Posted by Ephraim Ben Raphael

January- June 1916

-The Bohemian and Hungarian SSRs join the USSR. The Silesian Autonomous SSR and the Kars Oblast are annexed to Russia.

-The last remaining Austro-Hungarian forces dig into Tyrol and western Austria where the mountinous terrain gives them an advantage against tanks. Most of the Empire is occupied and already being dismembered. The aristocracy and intelligensia are either executed or deported for use as forced labour. Bulgaria surrenders to the USSR and recieves the same treatment as Romania. With Greece staying steadfastly neutral Allied resistance in the Balkans is coming to an end.

-Sweden surrenders.

-Stalin wants to invade Norway and Greece but at the urging of his generals agrees to wait until Germany falls before making any new enemies.

-Marshal Voroshilov launches the 1916 Spring Offensive intended to break the Allied lines and drive Germany out of the war. The Offensive is a failure. Although the Soviets do advance considerably, taking Kiel and capturing part of Bavaria they loose incalculable men and materials including over two hundred irreplaceable T-34s attacking fixed defensives and machines guns.

-Adolf Hitler is taken prisoner and executed, as a future charismatic leader he is a threat and is dealt with accordingly.

-Although the Red Airforce still controls the skies over Germany they are being challenged increasingly by RAF planes under Sir Charles Longcroft and the new German Fokker monoplane.

-The French Renault FT-17 carries a 45mm gun and is able to go toe to toe with the lightly armoured Russian BT-7. It's greatest weaknesses are it's slow speed, light armour, and tendency to break down but for the first time Russian tank commanders are forced to be wary of their enemy's machines.

-In the Battle of Kattegat the Soviet Baltic Fleet faces off against the combined British, French, Dutch, Belgian, Danish, and German Atlantic fleets. Although the invasions of Denmark still is able to proceed, the Soviet losses in terms of tonnage mean they won't be able to sortie into the North Sea for a while until the damage is made good.

-The Sultan and most of the Ottoman nobility who havn't fled are captured in the fall of Istambul and killed. The city itself and the surrounding region become the Constantinople Oblast. The rest of Anatolia comes under the puppet government of Turkey. What remains of the Ottoman empire is maintained largely by the British under a nominal Sultan with a distant relationship to Mehmed V.

-Lightly populated Arabia is quickly being subdued as the Communists snap up the coast. On the meditteranean coastline the Peoples Republic of Syria ia established as Russian troops blitz through Palestine. In the Sinai the British and other Allies frantically dig in to protect the Suez Canal. If it is lost then any hope of holding onto East Asia goes with it.

-In India General Beauchamp is relieved of command and replaced by Charles Alexander Anderson. Taking advantage of the long Soviet supply lines and the hesitancy of the Russian commanders General Anderson is able to use localized counterattacks and raiding to slow the Russian advance. The first use of Allied tanks in Asia occurs when several obsolete Landcruiser MkIs are send into battle at Mumbai.

-In response to active resistance in the Afghan SSR Stalin orders the deportation of large numbers of Afghans to Siberia for use as forced labourers.

-The Himalayas slowsthe invaders as most of their advantages are nullified by harsh terrain.

-The BFJC Joint Command (British French Japanese Chinese) is being thrown back in China before General Zhukov but Chinese partisans and early French tanks are slowing the advance. The Peoples' Republic of China is established as a Russian dependency with its capital in Beijing. President Yuan Shikai of the Republic of China has relocated the government to Hanian and promises to prosecute the war to victory.

-The People's Republic of Korea is formed under Moscow's tuttelage.

-The Russian advance down Honshu is slowed by a new Japanese tactic; having civilians strap bombs to themselves and then blow themselves up taking Russian soldiers with them. Some units have just taken to shooting any Japanese they see. Shortages of food and ammunition plaugue the invasion force as the navy scrambles to keep them supplied since the Japanese burn or destroy anything in the path of the Russian army. These problems are compounded by Stalin ordering a second invasion of Kyushu.

-Elements of the Japanese government start work on a bunker system on Iwo Jima as a fall back location to make their last stand should the home islands fall.

-On May 5 1916 President Wilson asks Congress for a declaration of war against the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. "The Germans," he says "are fighting to defend civilization from those who would take away those freedoms to which American citizens have become accustomed; freedom to worship, freedom to speak, freedom from want, and freedom from fear. It is with a heavy heart that I must come before you supporting war but I do so knowing that by defending Germany we defend America, and by defending China we defend our homes from the eventual attack." Soon American troops are on their way to the front lines.

Wait a moment. Istanbul? Not Constanstinople? Did you accidently get them backwards? It seems far more likely that the Soviets would rename it to remove the religious connotations from it. Then again, the Turks enjoyed it enough... Ehhh. I'll not go into Bombay because it's just nitpicking, especially since I see you gave Russia Crimea. Or turned it into a smaller unit. Though why does Romania have that bit of territory jutting into the Soviet Union? Hypothetically, would it be to the advantage of the Soviet Union or to everyone else if ships began sinking themselves in the Straits to clog them? I'm hoping the Soviets try a naval attack on Hong Kong very quickly. A typhoon is due there next month. And Asians are so difficult to tell apart to many, especially between the Koreans and Japanese... Any chance of the Hui taking a note out of the Japan's book? I doubt that the Russian's could shoot and deport all of East Asian. Might I also ask what is happening to the missionaries and their flocks in China? Though I likely do not need ask. And it is almost a shame that the Russians will likely not make it into Africa. I would have adored you if a joint Crusade of the Ethiopians, Ugandans, Sudanese, Congolese, Kenyans... Not sure how many Christians they had back then that weren't stepped on by the colonialsts back then. But the mouth waters at the thought. The Red Flag could only fall in darkest Africa. As for Mecca and Jerusalem? They will not be missed. Also, might I ask how many Finns, White Russians, and Swedes escaped into the Norwegian mountains? And should I guess that they have been using this time to get the Nordic gold and civilians onto their merchant marines to send them elsewhere? Hopefully with a good many ice breakers...

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Nekromans

It's very different to Islam, certainly, but I don't think the difference is too much larger than the difference between (say) Lutheranism and the Coptic Church.

I would say the difference are much greater than that, and most Muslims don't even consider Ahmadiyya or Alawites to say nothing of Druzes to be Islamic, and those group are a lot more similar to standard Islam. Of course it may be seen as Islamic still by other Muslims, because of its isolation and lack of interaction with other Muslims, but theological it would as different from standard Islam as Islam are from Christianity.

[TotrueTufaar]

Originally Posted by Emperor-of-New-Zealand

And the map:

I am afraid that Guyana was a bit of a hellhole. The British did studies on whether or not to stick the Assyrian Christians who were not slaughtered by the Turks and Kurds there, though decided it was not exactly livable. As for Croatia, didn't they have some revolts when the Hungarians once tried to leave Austria, taking them with them? Also, I do not believe it would have been possible for the Spaniards to either build a canal nor keep Panama. Why would Gran Colombia have announced independence, except for a long chunk of their land up north? Besides, the French couldn't dig the canal. It needed steam shovels, dynamite, huge chunks of resources, and thousands of American and Haitian labourers. And please explain the Alaskan-Canadian border. Especially considering that gold was discovered, and the swarms of Russians, Brits, Americans, and whatnot whould have realized the stuff was on both sides. It could even be enough to tempt the Russians, Americans, and perhaps even the likely extremely anti-British Mexicans to reestablish claims to the Oregon Country again. I certainly don't see any reason for the Americans, who had Maine and Washington stolen from them without any explanation of the war's reasons, would consider the British as allies. And about the "execution of non-Christians"... What on Earth does that mean? The southerners had already driven most of the Natives, Christians included, clear onto the otherside of the Mississippi. They also silenced, deported, or beat to death any preacher who did not praise slavery, while most Blacks, free or otherwise, were Christian, with the exception of some voodooists who were kept around New Orleans for the entertainment value. And you got rid of one of the two South American buffer states... Do the Argentinians and Brazilians really trust each other that much? If so, how long 'til Uruguay goes? On a side note, what of Texas and California? I would think that their would be a great many butterflies there, especially in wars between them, the Confederates, and Mexico, along with the balances in the House and Senate.

[Timmy811]

The tragic death of George Augustus, heir to George I had set the wheels of
bloodshed in motion years ago. With George I’s passing in 1727, his
daughter Sophia, the Queen in Prussia had inherited the throne of Great
Britain and Ireland while his brother Ernest Augustus inherited the
Electorate of Hannover.

Ernest Augustus was old however and without issue. Given Salic law, the
Electorate should have passed down to Louis Rudolph of Brunswick-Lüneburg. But
he too was old, 62 and without issue. One had to go to Louis Rudolph’s first cousin
and husband of his youngest daughter, Ferdinand Albert to find an heir with any sons.

It was intolerable to Ernest Augustus that Hannover should pass so far
down the line of a branch family that had separated centuries ago. In
defiance of Salic law he willed that his sister’s son Frederick should inherit
the Electorate. When he passed at the age of 58 in 1733 and Augustus II of
Saxony and Poland followed him within the month, Europe girded itself for conflict.
(I couldn't find the cause of Ernest Augustus death so I've no idea how likely him
living another 5.5 years is)

Augustus William protested and looked to the French for aid. Louis XV saw
this has his opportunity to cripple British power in Western
Europe. Hannover would be detached from the British sphere and the pro
French Stanisław Leszczyński would be placed on the Polish throne.
Hopefully Leszczyński would manage to hold on to his throne, but as long
as he held out long enough for France to overrun the Austrian Netherlands
and Hannover, while the Spanish overran Austria's southern Italian holdings,
it would be enough for Louis.

Austria though it ordinarily would have combated any attempt to solidify
Prussian power in northern Germany, was forced by circumstance to
acquiesce given the far graver threat of the loss of the Netherlands and Poland
falling under a king beholden to France.

In Britain, though Walpole deplored getting involved in such a continental
struggle, rising tensions with the Bourbon powers, particularly Spain, led to
the enthusiastic participation of Britain in the coming struggle.

With the death of Ernest Augustus, Fredrick inherited Hannover (though at
only 16 his father Fredrick William would rule as regent until his majority),
and Europe plunged into war. France and Brunswick declared war on
Hanover and in Poland Stanisław Leszczyński seized power in a coup
supported by the majority of the nobility.

The Hopes of the French were dashed however. The Russians and Saxons triumphed
in Poland by the end of '34 and the Prussians, Austrians and British in the Austrian
Netherlands by the end of '35. The War of Polish & Hannoverian Succession was a
relatively short conflict.

With the ascension of Maria Theresa to the Imperial Throne war once again came to
Europe as Fredrick II of Prussia overran Silesia beginning the war of Austrian Succession.
Britain, still under the rule of his mother Sophia, and already embroiled in a war with
Spain stayed neutral. Sophia wished to help her son, but Parliament had no wish to come
into any war with Austria on the side of France.

[Timmy811]

Originally Posted by Ephraim Ben Raphael

January- June 1916

Shouldn't the Japanese and British Far East Fleets by able to cut the logistical support of the invasion even in the face of Soviet air control? They don't really have any dedicated naval bombers do they?

[taylortjc]

Soviet warships and planes would still have the edge technologicaly

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

Yes beside the changes, in diet and prayer, we would likely also see Nordic Islam take up much of the organisation structure of Norse paganism. That would be a much more radical changes, ironic the closest comparison would likely be Iranian structure, with a strong and organised priesthood of mullahs rather than the more rabbinic structure of Imams much as the rest of Islam follows. The isolation from the rest of Islam and the heretical doctrines would likely also mean a move away from using Arabic to any large degree.

So would a Islamic branch which doesn't have haram/halal duality, have fewer prayers, use a solar year rather than lunar, allow drinking, have a organised priesthood and use Norse as church language really be Islamic?

I personally believe that, the first Muslim to make it to Scandinavia, tried to convert a Viking went something like this-

The viking sat down, and listened very closely to what he was hearing, he stood up and said

"Are you not aware? This is Hyperborea! The sun does not always rise from the horizon, and sometimes it stays stuck in the sky! All we have to eat is pork, we have no other option. And no mead? We have naught else to drink! If I were to adopt your faith, my good guest, you would be killing me. So no, you may take your Allah and his servants back to the land of sand and fire, and I shall stay with Odin and his kind in this, the land of snow, fire, and eternal night."

[LordInsane]

It is worth noting that the Viking period was a warmer - not colder - period. And, er they did have other things to drink (Scandinavia is one of the centres of lactose tolerance), the inaccuracy of the sun staying stuck in the sky have already been touched upon...

[charl]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

I personally believe that, the first Muslim to make it to Scandinavia, tried to convert a Viking went something like this-

The viking sat down, and listened very closely to what he was hearing, he stood up and said

"Are you not aware? This is Hyperborea! The sun does not always rise from the horizon, and sometimes it stays stuck in the sky! All we have to eat is pork, we have no other option. And no mead? We have naught else to drink! If I were to adopt your faith, my good guest, you would be killing me. So no, you may take your Allah and his servants back to the land of sand and fire, and I shall stay with Odin and his kind in this, the land of snow, fire, and eternal night."

If the way Scandinavia was Christianised OTL is any indication what the Viking most likely would have said was: "So... how much gold are you offering me to convert?"

And then he would go on with his life as usual, not giving a crap about what the rules says he can't do.

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Originally Posted by TotrueTufaar

snip

Well, I did say things got a little out of hand, didn't I? You assume I know a lot more than I do - the extent of my non-NZ official history education is Weimar Germany-WWII, touching on Ireland and Black Civil Rights (important but boring).

As for the borders - yes, they are convergent in many places (including Alaska) but as I said, I don't know how or why that specific border was formed, only that it was like that before the Russians sold iOTL, and still is. ITTL Russia is a lot more aggressive and centralised during the latter half of the 19th Century through to the 20th, meaning more effort into industrialising and populating the Far East. Russia has a massive population, with a lot of viable manpower, so it's not that implausible that the border would remain that. The Anglo-American War would have been over the regions you mentioned. Oregon? And execution of non-Christians; I was assuming that the South wasn't simply white masters - black slaves. Muslims, Chinese, Jews...? They were around for 30 years, and that's 30 years of increasing pressure to give up their backwards society and join the rest of the proggressive world. When an unstable state gets destabilised, bad things happen. As for Spanish Panama - ITTL Spain wasn't quite the political mess it was OTL. Gran Colombia's War of Independence, while still a win for Colombia, ended at the Panama-Colombia border. Re your comments on Mexico - Look at it. Look at it. Texas is richer and recieves a lot of immigration from the USA, Mexico itself, Europe, etc., and so does California after the gold rushes there. Now Texas has oil too? Sure there were some wars between CA and TX, but CA is pretty firmly Britain's bitch lest the Yanks do some annexing.

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

Well.......actually, most everything does seem to be at least somewhat plausible.......well, except for British-backed California and the Russian Alaska, but other than that, not bad at all. Not bad at all.

Thanks! I've been trying to flesh out my brainchildren a little more these days, given how everyone's getting over the LOL WANK maps. I'm not always happy with them, but sometimes they pass

Originally Posted by Krall

Both of those seem pretty plausible to me. If Russia is on good terms with the British and gold has been found in Alaska, then Alaska is (or can be) profitable and is not at risk, so there's no reason to sell it. Similarly there are numerous reasons why Britain might want to back an independent California, from creating a stable and friendly nation which which the British can do good trade with, to preventing the USA from conquering the region as part of a larger "Columbian Game" for control of the West coast.

I like that idea.

Originally Posted by Krall

I like the history of your map, EoNZ. It's no where near as implausible as you make it out to be.

Thanks very much

[TotrueTufaar]

Originally Posted by Timmy811

Shouldn't the Japanese and British Far East Fleets by able to cut the logistical support of the invasion even in the face of Soviet air control? They don't really have any dedicated naval bombers do they?

On the same note, how did all the ships go back in time as well? Some would surely be in the ports, but submarines would be best to have out in the water before hand. Not even getting into the canals... Rapheal, how far out into the water did the Event go? And why kill Hitler?

[TotrueTufaar]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

I personally believe that, the first Muslim to make it to Scandinavia, tried to convert a Viking went something like this-

The viking sat down, and listened very closely to what he was hearing, he stood up and said

"Are you not aware? This is Hyperborea! The sun does not always rise from the horizon, and sometimes it stays stuck in the sky! All we have to eat is pork, we have no other option. And no mead? We have naught else to drink! If I were to adopt your faith, my good guest, you would be killing me. So no, you may take your Allah and his servants back to the land of sand and fire, and I shall stay with Odin and his kind in this, the land of snow, fire, and eternal night."

Is mead banned in the Quran? Or only alchoholic drinks made from grapes and wheat?

[Iori]

I have'nt finished the whole map (have 75% of Asia to finish), but here's the America's in in the first map of a map series and possible Timeline I'm doing.



I have'nt established the exact PoD(s), but basically Mexico and Texas ending up fighting to a stand still, leading to Mexico grudginly recognizing Texas's Independence, though not its massive land claims, however, this along with various internal strife leads to a Civil War in Mexico (which they were trying to avoid by recognizing Texas in the first place), which resulted in in Mexico splitting into two; the Federative States of Mexico and the Republic of California.

California, wanting to keep America from getting any 'Grand Ideas' negotiated a new border with the U.S. to satisfy Teaxan claims.


It's now 1855 (the civil war ended in 1851) and the new regime in Mexico (which is more democratic and concillatory) has managed to get the Yucatan to re-join and has since recognized California's independence.

Meanwhile California is in the process of adopting a Constitution and generally nation building, which has been helped along by the steady stream of immigrants not only from Mexico and the U.S., but even some from Europe (mainly Irish with some South Germans and Poles mixed in).

[Pischinovski]

First Post
Second Post

The third map of my Araldyana Series:

This time I depict the state in the year 1625.

The Federation:

The Araldyan Federation was founded back in 1541 as an alliance to defend against the European nations. But nowadays the Federation is the mighties power on the continent. The Europeans now have to defend their settlements in the New World.

Leader of the Federation is Emperor Thorvald(us) III. (sometimes also called Deivis III.). A council of experienced men and women advise him. Most of them are former imperial Vicars or princely officials. Capital is Rœhmiar.

The Federation consists of the (Roman) Empire and 14 Principalities:

The Empire:
Ruler of the Empire in personal union leader of the Federation is Thorvald III.
The Empire is the direct sucessor of the Western Roman Empire (see also first post). The most people speak a Gaellic language and are christians. But there is also a very large native minority especially in the southern part of the Empire who speak indigenous languages and are mostly pagans.
In religious questions is the Empire and also the whole Federation more tolerant than the most OTL states at this time (see also religion).
The Empire consists of 17 admistrative divisions called Dioceses which are ruled by an Imperial Vicar.
Some information about a few Dioceses:

Romarium:
-not to be confused with Romarum the latin name of the capital Rœhmiar which lies in the diocese
-the city of Rœhmiar is one of the world largest cities with over 600,000 inhabitans
-the region was settled by Romans since the late 13th century

Araldana Australis and Borealis
-named after the first Roman city in the new world
-today the city of Araldana is part of the diocese of Brytona not of one of the Araldan dioceses

Colonia Thorvaldium and Colonia Asvaldium:
-named after the present Emperor and the former Emperor
-founded in 1593 after the victory over the Lusitanish Viceroyality of Romana

Liberia Minor:
-a former Principality
-Liberia = Land of the Free
-named after the Iroquois, the Roman scholars were fascinated by the society of the Iroquois it seems them to be the ideal system


The Principalities
Principalities are de-jure ruled by an Prince but de-facto by the Council of Sachems. Women as well as men can reach high positions in the Principalities and in the Federation. The most Principalities very democratic organised.

The Sachem system:
-all Sachems of an principality form the Council of Sachems
-a Sachem is in the most principalities elected by the council of elders
-there are many ways to form a Council of Elders by the Iroquois for example the council is formed by the clan mothers
-if a principality joins the Empire (like Liberia Minor) as a diocese the Sachems receive the right to elect the Imperial Vicar but the Emperor can depose him


The map also shows the trade route from Rœhmiar to Tanuctalium (Tenochtitlan) capital of the Actecs

THE MAP:

[Ephraim Ben Raphael]

Originally Posted by TotrueTufaar

Wait a moment. Istanbul? Not Constanstinople? Did you accidently get them backwards? It seems far more likely that the Soviets would rename it to remove the religious connotations from it. Then again, the Turks enjoyed it enough... Ehhh. I'll not go into Bombay because it's just nitpicking, especially since I see you gave Russia Crimea. Or turned it into a smaller unit. Though why does Romania have that bit of territory jutting into the Soviet Union? Hypothetically, would it be to the advantage of the Soviet Union or to everyone else if ships began sinking themselves in the Straits to clog them? I'm hoping the Soviets try a naval attack on Hong Kong very quickly. A typhoon is due there next month. And Asians are so difficult to tell apart to many, especially between the Koreans and Japanese... Any chance of the Hui taking a note out of the Japan's book? I doubt that the Russian's could shoot and deport all of East Asian. Might I also ask what is happening to the missionaries and their flocks in China? Though I likely do not need ask. And it is almost a shame that the Russians will likely not make it into Africa. I would have adored you if a joint Crusade of the Ethiopians, Ugandans, Sudanese, Congolese, Kenyans... Not sure how many Christians they had back then that weren't stepped on by the colonialsts back then. But the mouth waters at the thought. The Red Flag could only fall in darkest Africa. As for Mecca and Jerusalem? They will not be missed. Also, might I ask how many Finns, White Russians, and Swedes escaped into the Norwegian mountains? And should I guess that they have been using this time to get the Nordic gold and civilians onto their merchant marines to send them elsewhere? Hopefully with a good many ice breakers...

What exactly do you mean by "that bit of Romanian territory poking into Russia?

Do you mean the strait to the Black Sea? At the moment the Red Navy is still reasonably strong in the med and the Pacific, it's in the Baltic where they've been beaten. In terms of Hong Kong, right now the Navy in the Pacific is focused primarily on Japan, so not yet.

Well missionaries are class enemies usually, so you can probably guess what'll happen to them.

As for Africa, don't be too sure. It all depends on whether General Aslanov can force the Allied lines at Suez. On the flat North African Terrain Soviet tanks would rule.

Jerusalem already fell, and there will be a real dustup over Mecca.

There are active resistance movements in Finland and Sweden, the Swedish government managed to evacuate with most of the treasury to London where they maintain continuity in exile with a relic of their navy and military forces. There is even a suprising White Russian underground, since in this case the monarchy is recalled as relitively free compared to Stalin's dictatorship. And yes, significant refugee populations exist in Norway, Greece, and Switzerland.

[Ephraim Ben Raphael]

Originally Posted by TotrueTufaar

On the same note, how did all the ships go back in time as well? Some would surely be in the ports, but submarines would be best to have out in the water before hand. Not even getting into the canals... Rapheal, how far out into the water did the Event go? And why kill Hitler?

They didn't all go back in time, as you mentioned a large number of Submarines were left. The ISOT included everything within 12 miles of the coast (Russian Territorial Waters).

As for Hitler, Stalin has been executing all the future leaders he captures in occupied territory (I believe I mentioned Mustafa Kemal as well). In 1939 Hitler wasn't hated for operation Barbarossa, Holocaust, etc. but he was known as a highly charismatic leader. Exactly the sort of person who could pose a threat tio Stalin's power, therefore he has to go.

[Mathuen]

Originally Posted by Pischinovski

Text and Map

Oh my... it's perfect!!!

And I live in Romarium!!!

[KCammy]

Originally Posted by Pischinovski

*Awesome*

VERY cool map. I'll need to massively improve my GIMPsmanship to compete.