The title tells it all - in 1890 Britain holds onto and fortifies Heligoland, to the wrath of Kaiser Wilhelm and the dismay of Chancellor Bismarck. I'll see about a TL starter. This POD is early enough to do some serious damage and butterflies in the World Wars.
HMS Heligoland - The Boil On The Kaiser's Bum
- Thread starter corditeman
- Start date
archaeogeek
Banned
In return Germany just got a larger African empire since them not being hungry in the scramble for Africa was pretty much the price for Helgoland. Most of the lands falling under the sultanate of Zanzibar are likely (so German Kenya). Even ignoring that butterfly (and given your history you will and likely will go on about how it's impossible and Britain will obviously get everything), if Heligoland remains british it falls pretty much on day 1 of WW1, too close to Germany for the fleet to do much. It won't be Sealion, it's more like a coastal hop. The north german coast will be even more horribly fortified in Hannover and Oldenburg as a result and any fleet movement close to the coast will likely get mauled. If by "lots of damage" you mean to the RN by trying a northern (and even more disastrous) Gallipoli, I agree fully.
If you think this opens the Baltic coast for a successful amphibious invasion, you're even more wrong than the idiots who thought the war would be over by christmas.
If you think this opens the Baltic coast for a successful amphibious invasion, you're even more wrong than the idiots who thought the war would be over by christmas.
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Grey Wolf
Donor
I don't think it would be very easy to take - but it won't be very easy to use it for much either.
Given British power projection into Heligoland Bight in OTL it may well be possible to defend it long-term
This might require more of the first-class battlefleet to be based in the Humber, or even Dover and in fact the existence of Heligoland in strategic thinking may well preclude the idea of gathering the Grand Fleet as per OTL at all
As mentioned above, a by-blow would be a greater German East Africa, and possessing Zanzibar would mean that there would be a larger cruiser fleet based out of there. Given how the Konigsberg and Von Lettow-Vorbeck performed in OTL, it may well make German East Afrika a nut that can only be cracked with a major invasion/expeditionary force.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Given British power projection into Heligoland Bight in OTL it may well be possible to defend it long-term
This might require more of the first-class battlefleet to be based in the Humber, or even Dover and in fact the existence of Heligoland in strategic thinking may well preclude the idea of gathering the Grand Fleet as per OTL at all
As mentioned above, a by-blow would be a greater German East Africa, and possessing Zanzibar would mean that there would be a larger cruiser fleet based out of there. Given how the Konigsberg and Von Lettow-Vorbeck performed in OTL, it may well make German East Afrika a nut that can only be cracked with a major invasion/expeditionary force.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
archaeogeek
Banned
I admit "falls from day one" may have been overstated, it would probably be defended, within what's possible to scramble in a few years, like Gibraltar and Singapore. However it would also be facing, instead of Spain or Japan, one of the most powerful land armies in the world and the third navy (or fourth I have a moment of doubt) of its time. So it would be a tough nut to crack but would probably be much less easy to keep hold of.
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You ain't seen nothin' yet, archaeogeek...
... SO DON'T ASSUME! Nitpick, nitpick...
Damage = change. Butterflies = The Unexpected.
... SO DON'T ASSUME! Nitpick, nitpick...
Damage = change. Butterflies = The Unexpected.
archaeogeek
Banned
Butterflies aren't random. And you still gave Uganda and Kenya to the Germans without giving a significant strategic advantage to the british (they already have easy access to the part where Heligoland is).
I have a 19th century 'textbook' that assumed that Heligoland would be quickly eroded away - implying that that is why they did not mind exchanging it.
I guess in this TL you are going to change that understanding? Why keep or fortify an area you expect the sea to destroy in the next 10 -15 years?
I guess in this TL you are going to change that understanding? Why keep or fortify an area you expect the sea to destroy in the next 10 -15 years?
Helgoland in British hands at the start of TTL WWI would mean that Royal Navy would try for a close blockade of Germany. Also, in Kaiserliche Marine it's likely that there'd be less focus on battleships and more on light forces (destroyers and submarines). The U-boots will have a fine hunting field, it seems.
I'll doubtless be accused of ignorant Britwankery here, but why does Germany wanting more automatically translate into Germany getting more? And especially why does the absence of a Heligoland treaty invalidate the results of the Berlin conference of 1885, which assigned most of Kenya and Uganda to the British sphere of influence? As for Zanzibar, Germany got most of the sultanate's mainland territories anyway, they formed the basis of German East Africa. If the Heligoland treaty didn't happen then the main difference in Kenya would probably be that Germany retained the Sultanate of Wituland in the far south east corner - nice, but hardly critical. Oh, and Germany almost certainly doesn't get the rather larger Caprivi Strip. The broad outlines of European settlement in Africa were decided at the Berlin conference, all the Heligoland treaty did was settle some of the outstanding details and resolve some inconsistences that had been left vague. It did not fundamentally redraw the map of Africa and nor would it's absence so do.
Grey Wolf
Donor
My worry is that it would change the strategic reality and may well lead to different alliances or areas of interest.
Was not some of Kenya still leased (?) in some way from Oman (not Zanzibar) ?
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
archaeogeek
Banned
I am fairly sure most of the Swahili coast went with Zanzibar...
Also other interesting changes; the treaty which let the british gain the Zanzibar protectorate I think also touched the other african colonies; I'm not quite sure how it affected Togoland, but I'm pretty sure Namibia's panhandle was one of the borders settled there.
Also, the germans would not simply want more; they already HAD more: Wituland and parts of the Swahili coast were already German protectorates. It did fundamentally redraw the map of East Africa by giving up this protectorate, which happens to include pretty much the entire northern coast of Kenya, with the part of the region effectively part of British Kenya being smaller and IIRC not terribly united. I'm not going to randomly accuse people of being britwankers, it's just that the OP has pretty much acted like one in a number of threads
- so basically it's not as simple but the British East Africa is quite a bit smaller as a result, and the situation could lead to another series of Fashodas.
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Princess Alexandra's Revenge...
Princess Alexandra of Denmark was married to Crown Prince Albert Edward, Queen Victoria's eldest son, in 1851. Theirs was a comfortable marriage, but he did heed her advice and interests, as he showed in the way he supported Denmark in the Second Schleswig-Holstein War. Queen Victoria and her other Saxe-Coburg children preferred Germany's interests and on the First of August 1865, Germany forced Denmark to give up Holstein, Schleswig and Lauenburg. Princess Alexandra was furious, but privately - and quietly - resolved to find a way to put a spoke in Germany's wheels.
Her opportunity came in 1890; Bismarck wanted Heligoland to guard the entrances to the ports of Hamburg and Bremen and the Kiel Canal. British Heligoland had been taken in 1807 from Denmark, was awarded to Britain in 1814 and in 1890 was coming up to its seventy-third year in British hands. From 1826, the sleepy fishing (and smuggling) haven, had become a fashionable spa, but all was to change. Alexandra had learnt from Albert Edward that Bismarck had proposed giving up a largely-spurious claim to Zanzibar and parts of the Kenya Territory, in return for Heligoland. At her suggestion he went to see the First Naval Lord, to ask a single question.
"In the event of our giving Heligoland to Germany, what will happen to the Royal Navy if we are at war in the future?"
Admiral Sir Richard Vesey-Hamilton made a simple reply. "In that case, Your Royal Highness, we lose control of the Heligoland Bight, for the Kaiserliche Marine could deploy battleships in the North Sea."
"I thought so... Maybe the Admiralty would like to make that clear? By the way - myself and Princess Alexandra will be happy if you and your wife can visit us."
The Vesey-Hamilton Memorandum lead to the Admiralty making strong representations to the Prime Minister about the risks of concentrating on Africa, whilst raising the risks in the North Sea. The result was that the 1890 Anglo-German Treaty defined the boundaries of German possessions in Africa and the line from Mombasa to Lake Victoria had to be re-aligned. Zanzibar and Pemba - independent in any case - were to fall to the Royal Navy in 1896, rather than to Germany; the Sultan felt British protection was preferable to German domination.
Heligoland's North and South Anchorages were to be a posting for a small naval squadron, thenceforewards; the dockyard at Chatham carried out maintenance, Captains and Rear-Admirals complaining at the lack of defences until Sir Anthony Fredericks became First Naval Lord in 1893 and built massive defences from 1895 under the Naval Works Act. That would mean that the battleships and cruisers of the 1889 Naval Defence Act had at least some defence against torpedo and gunnery raids from ships in Hamburg, Bremen and Wilhelmshaven. It was becoming increasingly clear that Heligoland was an obstacle to the Kaiser's plans for a High Seas Fleet, so the Royal Navy were to turn it into the 'Gibraltar of the North Sea' over some twenty years.
Princess Alexandra of Denmark was married to Crown Prince Albert Edward, Queen Victoria's eldest son, in 1851. Theirs was a comfortable marriage, but he did heed her advice and interests, as he showed in the way he supported Denmark in the Second Schleswig-Holstein War. Queen Victoria and her other Saxe-Coburg children preferred Germany's interests and on the First of August 1865, Germany forced Denmark to give up Holstein, Schleswig and Lauenburg. Princess Alexandra was furious, but privately - and quietly - resolved to find a way to put a spoke in Germany's wheels.
Her opportunity came in 1890; Bismarck wanted Heligoland to guard the entrances to the ports of Hamburg and Bremen and the Kiel Canal. British Heligoland had been taken in 1807 from Denmark, was awarded to Britain in 1814 and in 1890 was coming up to its seventy-third year in British hands. From 1826, the sleepy fishing (and smuggling) haven, had become a fashionable spa, but all was to change. Alexandra had learnt from Albert Edward that Bismarck had proposed giving up a largely-spurious claim to Zanzibar and parts of the Kenya Territory, in return for Heligoland. At her suggestion he went to see the First Naval Lord, to ask a single question.
"In the event of our giving Heligoland to Germany, what will happen to the Royal Navy if we are at war in the future?"
Admiral Sir Richard Vesey-Hamilton made a simple reply. "In that case, Your Royal Highness, we lose control of the Heligoland Bight, for the Kaiserliche Marine could deploy battleships in the North Sea."
"I thought so... Maybe the Admiralty would like to make that clear? By the way - myself and Princess Alexandra will be happy if you and your wife can visit us."
The Vesey-Hamilton Memorandum lead to the Admiralty making strong representations to the Prime Minister about the risks of concentrating on Africa, whilst raising the risks in the North Sea. The result was that the 1890 Anglo-German Treaty defined the boundaries of German possessions in Africa and the line from Mombasa to Lake Victoria had to be re-aligned. Zanzibar and Pemba - independent in any case - were to fall to the Royal Navy in 1896, rather than to Germany; the Sultan felt British protection was preferable to German domination.
Heligoland's North and South Anchorages were to be a posting for a small naval squadron, thenceforewards; the dockyard at Chatham carried out maintenance, Captains and Rear-Admirals complaining at the lack of defences until Sir Anthony Fredericks became First Naval Lord in 1893 and built massive defences from 1895 under the Naval Works Act. That would mean that the battleships and cruisers of the 1889 Naval Defence Act had at least some defence against torpedo and gunnery raids from ships in Hamburg, Bremen and Wilhelmshaven. It was becoming increasingly clear that Heligoland was an obstacle to the Kaiser's plans for a High Seas Fleet, so the Royal Navy were to turn it into the 'Gibraltar of the North Sea' over some twenty years.
Britwankers?
archaeogeek, I never forget either a politeness or a rudeness. This is not designed as a Britwank, just as a historical investigation.
The consequences of a Heligoland Gibraltar are not all positive for Britain, which is the point. Neither are they wholly negative. The ambivalence is crucial and worth examining.
Fashodas are inevitable in Africa - like children squabbling over the best piece of pie. Cape to Cairo railway is less likely. The effects on WW 1 and possibly WW 2, are more intriguing.
I find wanks a bore - particularly those that proclaim North America as the world's saviour. The British Empire? Well, let's await the judgement of (alternate) history, shall we?
archaeogeek, I never forget either a politeness or a rudeness. This is not designed as a Britwank, just as a historical investigation.
The consequences of a Heligoland Gibraltar are not all positive for Britain, which is the point. Neither are they wholly negative. The ambivalence is crucial and worth examining.
Fashodas are inevitable in Africa - like children squabbling over the best piece of pie. Cape to Cairo railway is less likely. The effects on WW 1 and possibly WW 2, are more intriguing.
I find wanks a bore - particularly those that proclaim North America as the world's saviour. The British Empire? Well, let's await the judgement of (alternate) history, shall we?
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HMS Heligoland - and the Heligolanders
The establishment of a small dockyard at Heligoland Town in 1896 is the real start of modern Heligoland. Although there was a brief proposal to name it 'HMS Alexandra', the existence of the still-useful ironclad battleship (launched 1875) meant that 'HMS Heligoland' became the obvious choice. Because of the small size of Heligoland, most materials had to be shipped in by sea from Norway, Sweden and England. This is why the beaches and moles so often confuse visiting geologists - there is so much foreign material that the island has been claimed to be made of glacial moraine. The native sandstone and chalk were tunnelled extensively over nearly eighty years, so much so that maybe 15% of the island is voids or collapsed quarries.
'HMS Heligoland' began with muzzle-loading rifles on shore batteries, but by 1902 it became obvious that what Frederick called 'The Concrete Battleship' was inevitable. The first phase was eight 12-inch ex-battleship guns in coastal gun mounts and open surface emplacements, but Fort Drum in Manila Bay is a lesser example of what was planned in Heligoland - turreted and cupola'd battleship breech loader rifles that by 1914 had been intended to be sixteen 15-inch guns. The Oberland was turned into four deeply-buried battery systems that were linked by a light railway underground and provided with storage for thousands of rounds of ammunition. The water supply reservoirs resembled those of ancient Constantinople, holding up to two year's supply at normal use by the garrison. Rainwater was to be harvested, as at Gibraltar, but the delivery of water by the 'Aquarian Squadron' was sometimes essential.
There was an inevitable clash of interests with those of the native islanders, who on the one hand had jobs building, maintaining and garrisoning the fortress, but who grieved for the passing of agriculture and the wildlife of the Oberland. For a time, there was concern that the islands of Heligoland and Dune might be washed away, but storm-defences added to over decades saw that vanish. But those defences were also fortified against landings; blockhouses and pillboxes were fitted with searchlights, Maxims and Vickers guns, Hotchkiss and Elswick quickfirers. A full regiment of Royal Marines was brought in for coastal defence. The Old Harbour of stone and fishing-boats was an isolated relic amongst thousands of tons of imported granite, concrete and steel.
But Heligoland fell out of favour in 1904 when Sir John Arbuthnot Fisher became First Sea Lord, despite continuing Royal interest. Fisher cut the Naval budget by £3.6 million, which saw Heligoland reduced to eight 13.5-inch guns with a range of barely 36,000 yards at full elevation and the old eight 12-inchers in old turrets as a secondary battery armament. The savings paid for the 'Queen Elizabeth' class of battleships, but seriously weakened 'HMS Heligoland''s offensive capability. Whilst her guns could fight off a squadron of battleships, the 'Concrete Battleship' could not command all the channels to the Kiel Canal and Hamburg as Frederick had intended. The harbour - which would have spanned the whole area between the Island and Dune - was also reduced to three smaller mole-protected harbours for cruisers, destroyers, torpedo boats and submarines. Gone were the dreams of a forward assembly-area and anchorage for the Grand Fleet, Heligoland was filled with 'disposables' - turtle-back destroyers like 'Ardent', torpedo boats, three light cruisers and the once-respected 'HMS Alexandra', last of the broadside ironclad battleships, as guardship. But, in a gesture to the future, the submarines 'E-1', 'E-2' and 'E-3', the first of their class, were to be assigned to the Heligoland Squadron. Heligoland was to deny the enemy its strength and rely upon the small vessels for offensive work during a war. It was a sad come-down from the offensive role 'HMS Heligoland' had been intended to play.
"In the event of war, we'll have to evacuate all dependents to Britain." The Governor - always a Rear-Admiral - told the locals at a Town Hall meeting. "But the flag of British Heligoland remains - the White Ensign will not be the only flag on Heligoland." But the locals were not convinced; some were re-settled at Navy expense in Norfolk and in Denmark. A very few others were to try their luck in the Kaiser's Germany, with sad results in the future.
The influence of Heligoland was not in fact to be very great; the guns had a known maximum range of 36,000 yards and whilst they were a nuisance to the Kaiserliche Marine, they did not halt German naval deployments or coastal commerce. The problem for Germany was that the heavy guns sterilised the sea for naval movements in a circle 66 kilometers in diameter during daylight hours. The solution would be night movements, but the Royal Navy would then be able to use searchlights (range up to 18,000 yards) to cover a lesser diameter. Germany's solution was to look into the use of high-speed diesel or steam turbine torpedo boats and the building of Unterseeboot to pass under the sea near Heligoland. But, even in 1910, there was serious concern in the Royal Navy that minelayers could isolate the whole place in barely three days.
Africa had been the main expense of Heligoland; the Kenya Protectorate or Colony was a smaller one than the 1890 settlement would have allowed and the Zanzibar Protectorate nearly triggered a war. Britain had to agree not to turn Zanzibar into yet another fortified naval base, which made Aden the most viable alternative. At the same time (1898) there were squabbles over Fachoda, but Britain forced France to back down and leave this part of what became the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. German East Africa remained as a powerful block to the 'Cape to Cairo' ambitions of such as Cecil Rhodes. There was no effect, however, on the Boer War, except that the High Seas Fleet exercised off Heligoland and almost dared the Marine and Royal Navy gunners to open fire.
The establishment of a small dockyard at Heligoland Town in 1896 is the real start of modern Heligoland. Although there was a brief proposal to name it 'HMS Alexandra', the existence of the still-useful ironclad battleship (launched 1875) meant that 'HMS Heligoland' became the obvious choice. Because of the small size of Heligoland, most materials had to be shipped in by sea from Norway, Sweden and England. This is why the beaches and moles so often confuse visiting geologists - there is so much foreign material that the island has been claimed to be made of glacial moraine. The native sandstone and chalk were tunnelled extensively over nearly eighty years, so much so that maybe 15% of the island is voids or collapsed quarries.
'HMS Heligoland' began with muzzle-loading rifles on shore batteries, but by 1902 it became obvious that what Frederick called 'The Concrete Battleship' was inevitable. The first phase was eight 12-inch ex-battleship guns in coastal gun mounts and open surface emplacements, but Fort Drum in Manila Bay is a lesser example of what was planned in Heligoland - turreted and cupola'd battleship breech loader rifles that by 1914 had been intended to be sixteen 15-inch guns. The Oberland was turned into four deeply-buried battery systems that were linked by a light railway underground and provided with storage for thousands of rounds of ammunition. The water supply reservoirs resembled those of ancient Constantinople, holding up to two year's supply at normal use by the garrison. Rainwater was to be harvested, as at Gibraltar, but the delivery of water by the 'Aquarian Squadron' was sometimes essential.
There was an inevitable clash of interests with those of the native islanders, who on the one hand had jobs building, maintaining and garrisoning the fortress, but who grieved for the passing of agriculture and the wildlife of the Oberland. For a time, there was concern that the islands of Heligoland and Dune might be washed away, but storm-defences added to over decades saw that vanish. But those defences were also fortified against landings; blockhouses and pillboxes were fitted with searchlights, Maxims and Vickers guns, Hotchkiss and Elswick quickfirers. A full regiment of Royal Marines was brought in for coastal defence. The Old Harbour of stone and fishing-boats was an isolated relic amongst thousands of tons of imported granite, concrete and steel.
But Heligoland fell out of favour in 1904 when Sir John Arbuthnot Fisher became First Sea Lord, despite continuing Royal interest. Fisher cut the Naval budget by £3.6 million, which saw Heligoland reduced to eight 13.5-inch guns with a range of barely 36,000 yards at full elevation and the old eight 12-inchers in old turrets as a secondary battery armament. The savings paid for the 'Queen Elizabeth' class of battleships, but seriously weakened 'HMS Heligoland''s offensive capability. Whilst her guns could fight off a squadron of battleships, the 'Concrete Battleship' could not command all the channels to the Kiel Canal and Hamburg as Frederick had intended. The harbour - which would have spanned the whole area between the Island and Dune - was also reduced to three smaller mole-protected harbours for cruisers, destroyers, torpedo boats and submarines. Gone were the dreams of a forward assembly-area and anchorage for the Grand Fleet, Heligoland was filled with 'disposables' - turtle-back destroyers like 'Ardent', torpedo boats, three light cruisers and the once-respected 'HMS Alexandra', last of the broadside ironclad battleships, as guardship. But, in a gesture to the future, the submarines 'E-1', 'E-2' and 'E-3', the first of their class, were to be assigned to the Heligoland Squadron. Heligoland was to deny the enemy its strength and rely upon the small vessels for offensive work during a war. It was a sad come-down from the offensive role 'HMS Heligoland' had been intended to play.
"In the event of war, we'll have to evacuate all dependents to Britain." The Governor - always a Rear-Admiral - told the locals at a Town Hall meeting. "But the flag of British Heligoland remains - the White Ensign will not be the only flag on Heligoland." But the locals were not convinced; some were re-settled at Navy expense in Norfolk and in Denmark. A very few others were to try their luck in the Kaiser's Germany, with sad results in the future.
The influence of Heligoland was not in fact to be very great; the guns had a known maximum range of 36,000 yards and whilst they were a nuisance to the Kaiserliche Marine, they did not halt German naval deployments or coastal commerce. The problem for Germany was that the heavy guns sterilised the sea for naval movements in a circle 66 kilometers in diameter during daylight hours. The solution would be night movements, but the Royal Navy would then be able to use searchlights (range up to 18,000 yards) to cover a lesser diameter. Germany's solution was to look into the use of high-speed diesel or steam turbine torpedo boats and the building of Unterseeboot to pass under the sea near Heligoland. But, even in 1910, there was serious concern in the Royal Navy that minelayers could isolate the whole place in barely three days.
Africa had been the main expense of Heligoland; the Kenya Protectorate or Colony was a smaller one than the 1890 settlement would have allowed and the Zanzibar Protectorate nearly triggered a war. Britain had to agree not to turn Zanzibar into yet another fortified naval base, which made Aden the most viable alternative. At the same time (1898) there were squabbles over Fachoda, but Britain forced France to back down and leave this part of what became the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. German East Africa remained as a powerful block to the 'Cape to Cairo' ambitions of such as Cecil Rhodes. There was no effect, however, on the Boer War, except that the High Seas Fleet exercised off Heligoland and almost dared the Marine and Royal Navy gunners to open fire.
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Grey Wolf
Donor
I am fairly sure most of the Swahili coast went with Zanzibar...
Also other interesting changes; the treaty which let the british gain the Zanzibar protectorate I think also touched the other african colonies; I'm not quite sure how it affected Togoland, but I'm pretty sure Namibia's panhandle was one of the borders settled there.
Also, the germans would not simply want more; they already HAD more: Wituland and parts of the Swahili coast were already German protectorates. It did fundamentally redraw the map of East Africa by giving up this protectorate, which happens to include pretty much the entire northern coast of Kenya, with the part of the region effectively part of British Kenya being smaller and IIRC not terribly united. I'm not going to randomly accuse people of being britwankers, it's just that the OP has pretty much acted like one in a number of threads
My mistake - it was Mombasa that was officially leased to Britain by Zanzibar, but formally retained the theoretical ownership
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
corditeman
A few questions/quibbles
a) I think the main armament by 1914 is way too high. 15" guns were only just entering service with the battle fleet so I doubt they would be available for Heligoland. Possibly 13.5", presuming no major butterflies in British gun design but even then I suspect that the RN would prefer them for ships. Also I think that generally fixed emplacements used smaller guns than mobile units. [The guns that caused a lot of concern for the allies off Normandy in 1944 were only 6", although admittedly that's for shore defence while it sounds like you're thinking more of Heligoland as a offensive position in itself, rather than defencive or as a base for offensive units]. I would say at most it would probably be say 6-8 13.5" guns, especially considering the main island is pretty small, only about 1km long.
b) I have read that the population was pretty pro-British and disappointed at being handed over to Germany. That in ~1919 when British forces were landed to demolish war-time defences in line with the peace treaty they were warmly welcomed by the locals who wished to return to British rule.
c) The islands are fairly soft stone and suffer from erosion but even without beach defences, something the Victorians seemed to have liked a lot, their still largely there now so I doubt if there would be serious concern about losing it to the sea.
Looks like it could be prompting the Germans to take an earlier and stronger interest in subs which could be nasty.
Steve
A few questions/quibbles
a) I think the main armament by 1914 is way too high. 15" guns were only just entering service with the battle fleet so I doubt they would be available for Heligoland. Possibly 13.5", presuming no major butterflies in British gun design but even then I suspect that the RN would prefer them for ships. Also I think that generally fixed emplacements used smaller guns than mobile units. [The guns that caused a lot of concern for the allies off Normandy in 1944 were only 6", although admittedly that's for shore defence while it sounds like you're thinking more of Heligoland as a offensive position in itself, rather than defencive or as a base for offensive units]. I would say at most it would probably be say 6-8 13.5" guns, especially considering the main island is pretty small, only about 1km long.
b) I have read that the population was pretty pro-British and disappointed at being handed over to Germany. That in ~1919 when British forces were landed to demolish war-time defences in line with the peace treaty they were warmly welcomed by the locals who wished to return to British rule.
c) The islands are fairly soft stone and suffer from erosion but even without beach defences, something the Victorians seemed to have liked a lot, their still largely there now so I doubt if there would be serious concern about losing it to the sea.
Looks like it could be prompting the Germans to take an earlier and stronger interest in subs which could be nasty.
Steve
Thanks for the constructive criticism...
I thought that it would cost Britain about the same as the Queen Elizabeth class of battleship and therefore went for that size of gun. The BL13.5 Mark V has a limited range as a battleship gun and I know of only three used as railway guns with a long enough range. The BL 15 Mk 1 seemed to fit the bill.
HMS Heligoland's main battery was deliberately intended to outrange and outweigh deployed German battleship guns. Hence the 'broadside' of the island was equal to three dreadnoughts. As you'll find out shortly, this was no obstacle to Krupps.
I'll downrate the guns to 16, but even so I feel that a pair of 4-turret lines would fit on the Oberland. As described, the Island has been turned into a superior kind of Fort Drum, designed to deter attack on the anchorage or even to hold its own against a battleship squadron.
Have I taken licence too far? Elswick might have been able to build the BL 15 Mk1 (Coastal) as a special job. Thoughts, please.
As for what Germany actually did in OTL http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F30810F93D5913738DDDA10A94D1405B838DF1D3
In the meantime, here's Heligoland at War : 1914.
I thought that it would cost Britain about the same as the Queen Elizabeth class of battleship and therefore went for that size of gun. The BL13.5 Mark V has a limited range as a battleship gun and I know of only three used as railway guns with a long enough range. The BL 15 Mk 1 seemed to fit the bill.
HMS Heligoland's main battery was deliberately intended to outrange and outweigh deployed German battleship guns. Hence the 'broadside' of the island was equal to three dreadnoughts. As you'll find out shortly, this was no obstacle to Krupps.
I'll downrate the guns to 16, but even so I feel that a pair of 4-turret lines would fit on the Oberland. As described, the Island has been turned into a superior kind of Fort Drum, designed to deter attack on the anchorage or even to hold its own against a battleship squadron.
Have I taken licence too far? Elswick might have been able to build the BL 15 Mk1 (Coastal) as a special job. Thoughts, please.
As for what Germany actually did in OTL http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F30810F93D5913738DDDA10A94D1405B838DF1D3
In the meantime, here's Heligoland at War : 1914.
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archaeogeek
Banned
I'll note that military thinking of the time on coastal batteries was that a single coastal gun was equivalent to three at sea in terms of equivalent firepower and accuracy since it was easier to stabilize.
Susano
Banned
Im not quite sure what a British naval fortress at Heligoland will actually do? I mean, even as it was IOTL the Germans were not able to reach the High Sea blockade anyway, while OTOH having a high-sea fortress in the German Bight stilly will not help with offensive amphibious actions at the German coast.
OTOH I dont see how it would give Kenya+Uganda to Germany. The Heligoland-Zanzibar Treaty was concluded after the colonial Berlin Conference, so borders were already fixed. Germany would have one small additional colony, Wituland, and thats it.
OTOH I dont see how it would give Kenya+Uganda to Germany. The Heligoland-Zanzibar Treaty was concluded after the colonial Berlin Conference, so borders were already fixed. Germany would have one small additional colony, Wituland, and thats it.