Barbaria: A World Without Rome

There are a lot of TL's out there about a world where Rome continues or gets bigger, so on, so forth. As awesome as they all are, I would like to examine a world without Rome. I have since given up on my Eire TL, generally because no one really seemed that interested, so I failed to see the point. I'm also fickle, so here is a new TL. Enjoy amigos!


In the year 387 BC, the Senones, a Gallic tribe, sacked Rome. Their leader, Brennus, razed the city and defeated the Roman General Camillus in battle. The Senones destroyed the city, and all hope for Roman dominance over Italia. Brennus claimed Camillus' head, and hung it from around the neck of his war-horse. The Gallic War Horns howled like monsters on the battle field, and the war drums seemed to never stop. The Senones claimed much of central Italy as their own. The Gauls continued to subdue and sack other Itallic and Latin tribes, taking in massive amounts of booty. Brennus and his Senones establish a short-lived kingdom in central Itlay.

360, the Etruscans rose up, and gathered a force to destroy the Senones. Many of the tribes flocked behind the Etruscan war-drums. The Gallic Army, and the Italian army met outside Siena. The Etruscans and their Italian allies managed to push the Celts into retreat, and the Etruscans routed them. In 359 BC, the Senones were expelled from Italy by Etruscan rebels. The Etruscans reasserted dominance in the region.

Please develop this further. Does this mean that civilzation's development is barbaric and set back by hundreds of years? That today, we would be at a 18th century level?

I just see things being a shit ton different. Technology might very well be further back by now, but don't expect it to look like OTL's 19th century. Languages will be all kinds of different, as will politics, maps, religion, culture. Just about anything and everything we know today as Western Culture will be altered.

Errnge said:

I just see things being a shit ton different. Technology might very well be further back by now, but don't expect it to look like OTL's 19th century. Languages will be all kinds of different, as will politics, maps, religion, culture. Just about anything and everything we know today as Western Culture will be altered.

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So how will things look?

Youngania said:

Please develop this further. Does this mean that civilzation's development is barbaric and set back by hundreds of years? That today, we would be at a 18th century level?

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*facepalm*

Rome and the Greeks were not the only peoples around to have urbanization, trade and civilization in General, there were many such groups not only in Asia but even in Europe.

archaeogeek said:

*facepalm*

Rome and the Greeks were not the only peoples around to have urbanization, trade and civilization in General, there were many such groups not only in Asia but even in Europe.

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But what if the Chinese were conquered by barbarian groups from Mongolia. These groups destroy Chinese culture. What would happen?

Youngania said:

But what if the Chinese were conquered by barbarian groups from Mongolia. These groups destroy Chinese culture. What would happen?

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People in Beijing talk Hungarian or Mongolian or Turkish instead. They're not going to completely wipe out civilization, the reverse tends to be true and even if the local culture assimilates they still assimilate them into settled, urbanized, trading life.

Youngania said:

So how will things look?

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Let's be patient. The world will be vastly different. If you must see a glimmer of what I imagine, here you go: Celtic spread. Stronger Carthage. Greek Colonialism in Europe. Spread of Germanic Tribes. Conflict, conflict, conflict.

Youngania said:

But what if the Chinese were conquered by barbarian groups from Mongolia.?

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Uh, didn't that happen in OTL?

The Celts themselves were well on their way to a Roman-level of civilization. They had urban centers and much of the technology of Rome. Indeed, they probably introduced soap to the Romans.

Here I expect a Celtic empire that eventually comes into conflict with the Germanic tribes. The Etruscans consolidate Italy (Etruscia?) probably clashing with the Cartheginians while the Greeks meander on for a while, perhaps consolidating themselves again, becoming a major force in the Balkans. The Ibro-Celts become a battle ground between Carthage and Gaul. Basically a multi-polar ancient mediterranean world instead of a superpower conquering everyone. I would be interested in seeing whether the Celts could stop the Germanic tribes, who might then overrun much of Western Europe, becoming the inheritors of the Celtic cultural and technological innovations.

I don't see Christianity rising without an empire to spread it, or indeed create it by its presence in Judea. Perhaps the Judeans become a power in the Middle East or are crushed by surrounding powers eventually. Ultimately they don't spread to Europe in such large numbers without the Romans resettling them.

Youngania said:

Please develop this further. Does this mean that civilzation's development is barbaric and set back by hundreds of years? That today, we would be at a 18th century level?

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I don't know about that I mean even though the guals weren't as advanced as the rman's were technoligy wise I think that spain would be our next bet to create a highly advanced culture

archaeogeek said:

*facepalm*

Rome and the Greeks were not the only peoples around to have urbanization, trade and civilization in General, there were many such groups not only in Asia but even in Europe.

Click to expand...

Hey don't forget about Carthage

Errnge said:

Let's be patient. The world will be vastly different. If you must see a glimmer of what I imagine, here you go: Celtic spread. Stronger Carthage. Greek Colonialism in Europe. Spread of Germanic Tribes. Conflict, conflict, conflict.

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if that's true what would that mean for spain would greek colonies go into spain or would Carthage have a complete monopoly in that area.
Till things blow up

wiking said:

The Celts themselves were well on their way to a Roman-level of civilization. They had urban centers and much of the technology of Rome. Indeed, they probably introduced soap to the Romans.

Here I expect a Celtic empire that eventually comes into conflict with the Germanic tribes. The Etruscans consolidate Italy (Etruscia?) probably clashing with the Cartheginians while the Greeks meander on for a while, perhaps consolidating themselves again, becoming a major force in the Balkans. The Ibro-Celts become a battle ground between Carthage and Gaul. Basically a multi-polar ancient mediterranean world instead of a superpower conquering everyone. I would be interested in seeing whether the Celts could stop the Germanic tribes, who might then overrun much of Western Europe, becoming the inheritors of the Celtic cultural and technological innovations.

I don't see Christianity rising without an empire to spread it, or indeed create it by its presence in Judea. Perhaps the Judeans become a power in the Middle East or are crushed by surrounding powers eventually. Ultimately they don't spread to Europe in such large numbers without the Romans resettling them.

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I have to say with multiple emperor's clashing againsts eachother the need for military technology and other technologies would increase
and these empire's might even become more technologically advanced.

And about Christianity since the Jewish kingdom at this point is probably a protectorate the best way to sort of increase their power would be for christian convert's to go into arabia and have a christian arabia

Russian Sailor said:

And about Christianity since the Jewish kingdom at this point is probably a protectorate the best way to sort of increase their power would be for christian convert's to go into arabia and have a christian arabia

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Protectorate of whom? Without the Romans executing Jesus, why would there be OTL Christianity? Also, how would it spread if the practioners are killed, as ITTL they will likely be persecuted for heresy, just like OTL (assuming butterflies don't remove any for of this sect).

wiking said:

Protectorate of whom? Without the Romans executing Jesus, why would there be OTL Christianity? Also, how would it spread if the practioners are killed, as ITTL they will likely be persecuted for heresy, just like OTL (assuming butterflies don't remove any for of this sect).

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Egypt, the Seleucids or the Parthians.
The rest I agree, even assuming Jesus is a historical figure, lacking the state power of the 4th century Roman empire, the religion won't be able to spread much.

Youngania said:

But what if the Chinese were conquered by barbarian groups from Mongolia. These groups destroy Chinese culture. What would happen?

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If you have read up on any kind of history, the Mongolians DID conquer China, and Chinese culture survived very well under Mongol rule. You seem to be under the illusion that "barbarians" intentionally wished to destroy civilization. Some so-called barbarians were, contrary to popular perception, quite advanced and sophisticated in their own right, while others merely wanted to become part of a more advanced culture.

Lysandros Aikiedes said:

If you have read up on any kind of history, the Mongolians DID conquer China, and Chinese culture survived very well under Mongol rule. You seem to be under the dillusion that "barbarians" intentionally wished to destroy civilization. Some so-called barbarians were, contrary to popular perception, quite advanced and sophisticated in their own right, while others merely wanted to become part of a more advanced culture.

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Indeed, both the Yuan and Qing dynasties (and the Ming?) were founded by 'barbarians' from Mongolia and Manchuria, yet they adopted chinese culture and civilization, added a few of their own tastes into the mix and became, essentially, chinese after a few generations.

The demographics of the world are as follows (please correct me if I'm wrong, the information on some of these places at this time period is scarce):

North Africa is populated by Berber tribes with Phoenician settlements dotting the coast, most notable of which is Carthage, an up-start, but promising port-city.

Iberia is cut up between Lusitanians in the south, Celts in the North and West, Euskara in around the center of the Bay of Biscay, and Greek and Phoenician colonies along the eastern coasts.

Greeks have colonized the island of Sicily as well as much of southern Italy. They have established cities such as Syracuse and Napoli. North of these settlements are Italian tribes, most of which are currently ruled by the Etruscans. The Etruscans are actually not of Italian heritage. Their language is something like Hittite, and their bloodline a mixture of Ionian, Italian, and Celt. North of them, still, are the Celts loosely affiliated with the tribes of Gaul. By these Gallic Celts, the city of fortress of Milan has been founded.

OTL Modern-day France is mostly dominated by Gaul, a confederation of Celtic tribes that are just starting to turn into something like a republic. They have already overrun the Greek settlements on the Mediterranean coast. The Basques and Aquitainians remain un-offilliated to the direct South and West of Gaul. Gaul finds a natural border on the Rhine.

Across the Rhine are various Celtic and some small Germanic tribes. They mix quite often, and it is hard to discern if a "Celtic" tribe is actually German, or if a "German" tribe is actually Celtic. Across the Elbe, however, the populous is considerably more Germanic than Celtic.

Across the sea, on the British Isles, there are Picts in the far north (possibly related to the Basques and Aquitainians, and Celts to the South. Ireland is almost completely dominated by Celts with some small Pict minorities.

Scandinavia is considered the "homeland" of the Germanic tribes. The men here are large, but due to overpopulation, they have taken to the ship, and crossed the sea to the lands south. Every year there are more Germans in Europe. North of them are the Sami and/or Lapps.

The Eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea is the dominion of the Illyrians (possible ancestors of the Albanians). The populate the mountains ranging down the Balkans until the Mountains turn into rugged hills and reach the territory of the Macedonians. The Macedonians are an expansionist tribe with its eye on its famous and un-unified neighbor to the south, the Greek City States. To the North West of Greece is Thrace. The Thracians (considered another possible ancestor of the Albanians) are looked at as barbarians by the Greeks, but are actually very similar to the Greeks in all but language. Their language family tree is shared by there Northern neighbor from across the Danube, the Dacians. Dacia is a rich country (OTL, Modern Day Romania). But the mountains to the direct east, are populated by a Celtic tribe known as the Carpi (hence Carpathian mountains).

The dense forests to the North are sparse in human population. Some Celts here, some Germans there, some Balts even, and the occasional Scythian tribe might make a home here. The Baltic coast is populated by, you guessed it, Baltic tribes (ancestors of the Lithuanians, Old Prussians, and Old Pomeranians).

The steppes north of the Black Sea are ruled by nomadic tribes on horseback called the Scythians. To their west are Turkish tribes, and to the North are Slavs.

In Asia Minor, Greeks have colonized the West Coast, but Persia holds dominion over much of the peninsula. The Persians rule over almost all of the Middle East, except Arabia. They even rule the great halls of Egypt. Their mighty empire sprawls from Asia Minor to the Indus river valley.

Whoa, Persia? I hope you mean the Seleucids, and what about Ptolemaic Egypt? The Etruscans were also just as "advanced" as the Romans at this time.