AH challange: make market garden succeed

[mats]

it always bugged me that market garden could have gone so much better
i'd like to see how this works out and what would be the effects...

[BlairWitch749]

we discussed this last week or so.

the answer is that it can't based on the otl timeframe that lead up to market garden. the british could have less casualties by being better prepared and actually paying attention to their intel assets, but the plan itself was so flawed that even success meant failure

meaning this, even if the British drive through and capture bridges over the Rhine, there is no reason that the Germans in Western Holland will surrender; also the Germans still control all the territory to the south where the dykes and sluices are and will blow them if they feel fell they can't contain the advance... blowing them will flood the country side and turn allied supply lines into a total freaking swampy nightmare and trap them on the far side of the bridges; which in turn will create a MASSIVE humanitarian crises in Holland (since all the farmland in the countryside will be flooded) and leave the farthest spearheads vulnerable to counterattack from new German reserve divisions coming online (detailed for the ardennes) and they would have a damn difficult time getting support and could be destroyed

advancing down a two lane highway (heavily defended) that wasn't wide enough for medium tanks to turn around, and that had trees on both sides to screen anti tank guns and infantry with panzerfausts; that opens abruptly into urban areas that also screen anti tank forces was just not a good idea

[Sachyriel]

Market Garden succeeds do to a Nameless (OTL unknown) German Officer sucuumbing to mind-numbing nihilism while in the reserves and committing suicide, instead of OTL where he descended into mind-numbing nihilism and killed people before dying on the battlefield, providing morale to his troops.

Because of this slight typewriter error in a logistics tent farther away from the front, the situation takes longer to address and the position is kinda imbalanced even more so. Day by day goes by without his competant leadership and morale sinks.

Market Garden then starts, defeating the segment of Bridge-protectors that would have been more battle-ready from the Unknown's death in battle the Allied forces take less casualties and the resistance forces link up with them sooner.

However as our Particular Officer Divergence continues to affect the world logistics are completely different; one thing leads to another, and before long missions planned to sabotage Allied supply lines are cut back jsut a tiny bit; this leads to a larger supply of weapons and explosives for Market Garden. Not much, but combined with the other PODs we see that the effect is far from negligible.

Operation Market Garden goes down as a daring success, but at a high cost.

[NoOneFamous]

Take it away from the Brits and give it to Bradley and Patton

[mats]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

we discussed this last week or so.

the answer is that it can't based on the otl timeframe that lead up to market garden. the british could have less casualties by being better prepared and actually paying attention to their intel assets, but the plan itself was so flawed that even success meant failure

meaning this, even if the British drive through and capture bridges over the Rhine, there is no reason that the Germans in Western Holland will surrender; also the Germans still control all the territory to the south where the dykes and sluices are and will blow them if they feel fell they can't contain the advance... blowing them will flood the country side and turn allied supply lines into a total freaking swampy nightmare and trap them on the far side of the bridges; which in turn will create a MASSIVE humanitarian crises in Holland (since all the farmland in the countryside will be flooded) and leave the farthest spearheads vulnerable to counterattack from new German reserve divisions coming online (detailed for the ardennes) and they would have a damn difficult time getting support and could be destroyed

advancing down a two lane highway (heavily defended) that wasn't wide enough for medium tanks to turn around, and that had trees on both sides to screen anti tank guns and infantry with panzerfausts; that opens abruptly into urban areas that also screen anti tank forces was just not a good idea

that for one already happend in OTL know as the "hongerwinter" there was no food or fuel in the cities etc.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by mats

that for one already happend in OTL know as the "hongerwinter" there was no food or fuel in the cities etc.

It could have been a lot worse if the Germans blew all the dykes and entrenched themselves in the highly populated urban areas to the west and held out for stalingrad type pitched battles

[mats]

problem is there was nothing for the germans to so they then they are practicly under siege

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by mats

problem is there was nothing for the germans to so they then they are practicly under siege

Well based on what the Germans generally did up to that point when they where surrounded (Cherbourg, Brest and the other French ports come to mind) the situation could be very much worse than otl... especially since they had a bunch of paratroops in western holland... and we know how nasty they could be in close quarters combat from the battles at the gustav line

[mats]

yep, lot of people would die