Wi: Napoleon dies an infant

[Evil_evol]

What would the world been alike, had Napoleon I died an infant?

[Rex Imperator]

Originally Posted by Evil_evol

What would the world been alike, had Napoleon I died an infant?

Ah ha! I've thought mused and contemplated this question before. What if he had died an infant? Or for that matter, had he died in his early or mid teens? The world would be very different indeed, at least Europe would be.

Militarily, Europe's armies would have taken a lot longer to modernise their battlefeld tactics. It was the French columns, skirmishers, and great masses of 12-pounder artillery batteries coupled with Napoleon's frequent employment of such massed tactics that eventualy drove the Austrians, Prussians, and Russians to adopt counter-tactics. They countered the French with their own tactics by developing Allied skirmisher units such as the Jager companies and battalions as well as deployment of the attack column. The British were forced to develop their famed two-rank deep "thin red line". Thanks to Maj. General Sir John Moore's tactical experiments, he contributed not a little part to Wellington's overall victory over l'Empereur.

There would have been no grapeshot fired at the Paris mob, no expulsion of the British at Toulon, no victory over the Austrians at Marengo, no crossing of the St. Bernard Pass, no Grande Armee, no Trafalgar, no Austerlitz and its infamous "red sun", no Continental Blockade, no Russian adventure (no 1812 Overture for that matter), no Waterloo, no Continental Blockade...I could go on almost forever...

Politically, with Napoleon gone, the 18th century contines to influence much of the 19th. The Holy Roman Empire isn't disbanded. There is no Confederation of the Rhine. Russia, Prussia, and Austria continue to occupy Poland as per the Third Partition. Italy is still a bunch of separate states united only in the Catholic faith. It's worse for Germany, where more than 2,000 "principalities" claim sovereignty, and all the different tolls, taxes, and dues that go with it. The Napoleonic Code isn't formed, leading to perhaps severe civil implications. French industry doesn't get the "kick" it needs from Napoleon and his hoarde of gold in the cellars of the Tuileries, the list goes on and on...

[Dave Bender]

The answer to that question depends on who assumes power in France after King Louis gets beheaded. I have no idea who that will be.

France will still fight a war with her European neighbors. The existing monarchys did not like the idea of a King being deposed. France will be crushed quickly unless a competent government comes into existence.

[Wendell]

Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte may have become King of France instead of Sweden...

[Cloudy Vortex]

HARHARHAR!! Bernadotte deserves it.

[Hendryk]

Apart from the geopolitical consequences, another long-lasting difference with OTL is that Clausewitz will never write his book and redefine the Western military paradigm. The concepts of total war, nation in arms, etc., are seen as historical flukes of the revolutionary period, and don't become theorized as the next form of warfare.
But then, with no unified Germany, it's unlikely there'll be a WW1 anyway.

Another question: would the Romantic movement develop regardless? In OTL it got a tremendous boost from the post-Napoleonian growth of a proto-German national/cultural identity.

[Molobo]

would the Romantic movement develop regardless? In OTL it got a tremendous boost from the post-Napoleonian growth of a proto-German national/cultural identity.

The national movement already existed in such places like Poland before XIX century.I think such processes as growing national identity and desire to change political situation in Europe were already in place without the Napoleon.There were already two constitutions in Europe by XIXcentury that talked about nation, rights of the invidual etc.And there reactionary polices of tyrannies such as Prussia, Russia, Austria etc. So the social upheaval would likely gain momentum in the following century.

[Dr. B]

One thing that would have been affected later on was Hitler's WWII stratagy. From what I've read, Hitler was an admierer of Napoleon, and and early death by Napoleon could have resulted in a different WWII

[luakel]

Originally Posted by Dr. B

One thing that would have been affected later on was Hitler's WWII stratagy. From what I've read, Hitler was an admierer of Napoleon, and and early death by Napoleon could have resulted in a different WWII

Hitler wouldn't even exist though...

Welcome, BTW.

[Soyuz]

Ahhhh, no Napoleon = no metric system!!! Us Europeans can't LIVE without the metric system! I can't count in dozens, I'm missing 2 fingers for that! *shoots himself*

But, otherwise, why wont there be a unified Germany? Austia and Prussia long existed and it would be easier for them to pick off 100 tiny nations rather than meddle with 37 bigger ones.

[NFR]

There won't be a Patriotic War, for one thing.

And the Netherlands would stick to patronymic naming conventions, making their eventual inevitable absorbtion by the Russian Empire smoother.

[Faeelin]

[QUOTE=Rex Imperator]There would have been no grapeshot fired at the Paris mob, no expulsion of the British at Toulon, no victory over the Austrians at Marengo, no crossing of the St. Bernard Pass, no Grande Armee, no Trafalgar, no Austerlitz and its infamous "red sun", no Continental Blockade, no Russian adventure (no 1812 Overture for that matter), no Waterloo, no Continental Blockade...I could go on almost forever...[/quote[

Hmm. Let's remember that Napoleon was only one of the many bright stars of the Republic. There's Hoche, Desaix, Bernadotte, etc.

Shooting grapeshot at a crowd was nothing new; and Toulon wasn't exactly a strategic masterpiece. "Let's place cannon on top of the hill."

But the levee en masse had already happened by 1795; by the time of Napoleon's invasion of Italy, the French controlled the Rhineland and Low countries.

The Holy Roman Empire isn't disbanded. There is no Confederation of the Rhine.

Maybe; although the secularization and mediations still occur.

Italy is still a bunch of separate states united only in the Catholic faith. It's worse for Germany, where more than 2,000 "principalities" claim sovereignty, and all the different tolls, taxes, and dues that go with it.

Perhaps, but the mediations that occurred to compensate states who lost land in the Rhineland still occur.

The Napoleonic Code isn't formed, leading to perhaps severe civil implications.

Yes; perhaps the republican code of Hoche or some one who wasn't born from Corsican gentry isn't as harsh on women.

French industry doesn't get the "kick" it needs from Napoleon and his hoarde of gold in the cellars of the Tuileries, the list goes on and on...

OTOH, no massive bankruptcies in 1809, endless conscription, wars fought for the benefit of the autocrat in charge of France...

[ShawnEndresen]

Agree that some other up and comer will rescue the Directorate from itself; I tend to favor Davout, but Bernadotte works too. Lucien Bonaparte claws his way to the top of the Directorate without any help from his brother (as OTL), recognizes that France needs a strongman, and probably picks the general who scattered the mob. Unless you rule that in Napoleon's absence, Lucien was sent to the military academy in his place, in which case the Directorate may not be salvageable.

I'm not sure peace is a real possibility. Britain is devilishly hard to invade and quite rich; perfidious Albion will be able to buy continental allies and hurl them at the French for a long time. I don't see it ceasing this behavior until France is destroyed or Britain suffers domestic revolution. Estimates as to when France can crush Britain run from 1815 to never, and even 1815 is probably too late unless Britain gets, erm, distracted.

I tend to prefer Davout because, while he would gladly become Consul-for-life, there's no evidence he had any interest in a heriditary position, or in setting up his family. His peace after 1806 would have been...unpleasant...for the Habsburgs. Bernadotte probably would have settled down to be King of France, which might not be so bad depending on Britain.

We are supposing a military man in any case, so I agree that the Code which emerges will probably be comparable to the Napoleonic one, perhaps more kind to women as suggested.

No idea how Russia develops without these dificulties. Germany and Poland would still unite, but Germany might manage to do so peacefully (at least the western half) without Prussia being thrust to the top of the heap through its good fortune in the wars.

[Ivan Druzhkov]

I wonder...might this delay Russia's full entry into Europe? Russia was getting more involved in European affairs in the 18th century, but I was under the impression that it took the Napoleonic Wars to get Europeans to consider Russia as important as, say, Austria.

Incidentally, no Russian armies deployed in Germany means a lot of the reform movements that appeared in the first part of the 19th century will be stillborn. No Decemberist Revolt, in any case.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by Ivan Druzhkov

I wonder...might this delay Russia's full entry into Europe? Russia was getting more involved in European affairs in the 18th century, but I was under the impression that it took the Napoleonic Wars to get Europeans to consider Russia as important as, say, Austria.

Incidentally, no Russian armies deployed in Germany means a lot of the reform movements that appeared in the first part of the 19th century will be stillborn. No Decemberist Revolt, in any case.

What were the reasons for Constantine's refusal of the throne and its passing over to Nicholas I ? Would this have been changed ? Pointing the dynasty, as much as Russia, in an entirely different direction could be doubly intriguing

Grey Wolf

[ShawnEndresen]

Konstantin's personal reasons are perhaps unknowable. His family suggested and agreed to his refusal of the throne because he was too pro-Polish; he took a Polish wife, enjoyed Polish literature and theatre in the original language, and actually advocated Polish interests to his brothers the Czars (a Grand Duke of Poland attempting to protect Polish interests! the horror!) by 1825, Konstantin was simply not Russian enough, while Nikolai was.

Mikhail is completely unworkable, so to keep Konstantin you pretty much have to get rid of Nikolai.

[The Gunslinger]

Would we still end with a "Napoleonic War" in this TL, or would it be "Napoleonic Wars Lite"? Would the US still fight an undistracted Britain in such a scenario?

[Wendell]

We are assuming here that the Revolution in France will fizzle out. I'm not so sure that someone else couldn't rise and behave in a similar fashion to Napoleon. Marshall Ney, maybe?