WI: Best fighter for a developing country?

La Rouge Beret

La Rouge Beret

I am writing a timeline for a developing counry set in the 1950's to 60's and was considering various options for their first jet fighter. This country will be neutralist or slightly pro US in this timeline. So with a purchase date of the mid 1960's and with a requirement of:

1) Cost effectiveness
2) ease of Maintenance ability
3) Ability to operate from unpaved surfaces
4) Dual capability to perform interception and ground strike

At the moment I am considering MIG 17F, MIG 19 or Avon Sabre. What would the board members recommend?
 
RogueBeaver

RogueBeaver

I'd say the Sabre. It has a much heavier payload capability (5500 lbs vis-a-vis 550 for the Farmer and 1100 for the Fresco), with AAM capability lacking in the Fresco. Also much more maneuverable. MIGs are more cost-effective and easier for unpaved surfaces, though Sabres acquitted themselves well in Korea with temporary fields. All 3 can take off in 1500-1600 ft. Since your country is US-aligned or US-friendly, it will likely take the Sabre.
 

Mako_Leader

Agree with the Avon Sabre. Basically a traditional Sabre with a much more powerful engine and 30mm cannons rather than machine guns.
 

Just Leo

The choice of fighter aircraft will determine a bias in political preference. Maintenance requirements will require dealing with the country involved in the manufacture of the airframe, engine and sub-systems. Also, the precise date will determine availability of certain aircraft, such as Saab Tunnen/Lansen/Draken, Dassault Ouragan/Mystere/Super Mystere/Mirage III, Hawker Hunter, Folland Gnat, all nice little planes. Showing a need and sucking up to American State Department officials might bring some good deals on F-84's.
 
RogueBeaver

RogueBeaver

Leo: Of course, all of those are excellent choices for non-OP fighters. I'd take the Mirage III on everything except the fact that it's a tarmac hog with ridiculously long rollouts on takeoff and landing. Hunter and Gnat lack in intercept capability (no AAMs) and endurance. The Saabs check all the boxes, but would Sweden export to this hypothetical country's AF? I could see it being along the lines of their OTL Draken shipments to Austria.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
What kind of fighting are they expecting?
Would any counter-insurgency light fighter do or is it too weak?
(if it is, I'd say another one for the Sabre)
 
RogueBeaver

RogueBeaver

A COIN fighter would be more geared towards CAS and ground attack with minimal interception capability. Something like the Bronco, Warthog, Mirage V, Skyraider or Thud. Since it specifies a multirole fighter AA is obviously still an important part of the requirement.
 

Bearcat

Banned
A mix of Sabre and Skyraider would be very useful well into the 60s; in the third world, well into the 70s. Gives you dedicated air to air and air to ground platforms.
 

DuQuense

Why Jets???

?Weren't there several 3rd world nations that flew the Mustang into the 70's for anti insurgent roles?
 
RogueBeaver

RogueBeaver

You forgot interception as part of the OP, and those countries that did have the 'Stangs were in Central America such as Honduras. Their AFs often had some 1st or 2nd gen jets for mainline service. In Honduras' case it was Mysteres and Ouragans purchased from the IAF. At worst a larger ally had a protective AF screen over them. I do know Brazil had B-17s into the early '60s though.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
RogueBeaver said:
You forgot interception as part of the OP, and those countries that did have the 'Stangs were in Central America such as Honduras. Their AFs often had some 1st or 2nd gen jets for mainline service. In Honduras' case it was Mysteres and Ouragans purchased from the IAF. At worst a larger ally had a protective AF screen over them. I do know Brazil had B-17s into the early '60s though.
Click to expand...

I understand the OP asked for an aircraft that could do both, but wouldn't it ultimately be cheaper to use two specialized aircraft? Of course it depends on the country: a lot of third world countries don't really have the population for large specialized fighter dominated airforces but still...
 
RogueBeaver

RogueBeaver

The Mirage 50 wasn't popular in export sales, possibly because everyone snapped up Tigers, Rhinos or Fishbeds/Floggers depending on your alignment. I don't know how much it cost but it seems like the perfect multirole fighter for a US-aligned Third or Second World country that can't afford Rhinos.

Later on the FAs de Chile and Venezuela upgraded theirs to PANTERA (Chile) or DV/EV (Venezuela) standard with modern avionics, armament, and canards. 15% less takeoff distance, 35% increase in initial climb, higher ceiling, enhanced maneuverability. That's just the aerodynamics, not the new armament.
 
La Rouge Beret

La Rouge Beret

Cheers for the thoughts, the AF in question will already be operating the T 28 in a COIN / Light Strike role with the sqn of jet fighters maintaining airspace integrity. By the 1970's the first gen fighter has transitioned to a ground attack platform and would be replaced by another fighter (Mirage V, Tiger II, Kfir).

I had considered the Hawker Hunter and even the Draken for a third world country, how does that stack up against the Avon Sabre or Mig 19?
 

Just Leo

RogueBeaver said:
Leo: Of course, all of those are excellent choices for non-OP fighters. I'd take the Mirage III on everything except the fact that it's a tarmac hog with ridiculously long rollouts on takeoff and landing. Hunter and Gnat lack in intercept capability (no AAMs) and endurance. The Saabs check all the boxes, but would Sweden export to this hypothetical country's AF? I could see it being along the lines of their OTL Draken shipments to Austria.
Click to expand...

A Jordanian Hunter flown by a Pakistani pilot shot down 3 Israeli aircraft including a Mirage IIIC. 1967. 4 Pakistani F-86F's were met by 4 Indian Gnats. 4 Gnats returned. Only 1 Sabre. 1971. No intercept capability? Please remember the Pk of mid-'60 AAM's was near zero. Happiness was a warm gun. We still do not know the country, the probable foe, the budget, or the political will.
 
RogueBeaver

RogueBeaver

Draken or Hunter, especially if the country is neutral or US-aligned. Draken, though capable of carrying 6400 lbs of AG ordnance, was mostly used as an interceptor by its operators. I'd say a Hunter F6 is the best bet, given that the Swedes did not export outside of Europe in that era. By the 1980s the Hunter airframes will be approaching the end of their useful service lives at 25-30 years old. Replace everything with the Mirage 50, which can remain in service with suitable upgrades to PANTERA standards until the late 1990s/early 2000s to be replaced with early-model (A/B/early C blocks) Vipers if the country has the cash. If the 50s are late model (1989-1991) they can still be in service today. If not, Viper time.
 
RogueBeaver

RogueBeaver

Just Leo said:
A Jordanian Hunter flown by a Pakistani pilot shot down 3 Israeli aircraft including a Mirage IIIC. 1967. 4 Pakistani F-86F's were met by 4 Indian Gnats. 4 Gnats returned. Only 1 Sabre. 1971. No intercept capability? Please remember the Pk of mid-'60 AAM's was near zero. Happiness was a warm gun. We still do not know the country, the probable foe, the budget, or the political will.
Click to expand...

My mistake- a temporary brain fart, now corrected in my following post. :eek:
 
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