sources of horses

Hello,
I am writing an alternate timeline of Vijayanagar (a peninsular Indian empire), which I hope to make a naval power, rather than a land power. The question I have is this and the time I have in mind is between 1430 and 1490.

India had a chronic shortage of horses. Horses don't do all that well in Indian climate and India always imported horses (mainly from the Arabs, Persians and the Central Asians).

My question is this: Supposing a navally inclined Vijayanagar empire had problems with the Arabs because both are trying to grab trade opportunities, (the sea lanes from Persia were controlled by the Arab seamen and the land Persian and the Central Asian land routes were always far more difficult for importers in peninsular India), where else could they import horses from?

I have a potential solution - Manchuria. Manchuria certainly had an abundance of horses and the Jurchen used them to get whatever they wanted. There were Ming Chinese horse markets and the Jurchen traded extensively with the Ming, selling horses to get the Chinese goods. Would the Jurchen be willing to (or be allowed to by the Ming) sell horses to Vijayanagar, if the Vijayanagar navy got that far north? And assuming that Vijayanagar navy did get that far north, what would be the ports from which they could trade? Through Ming China? Through Joseon Korea? Or further north, through the east Siberian ports that were principally in Jurchen hands?

And what about Japan? Did they have an abundance of horses and would they be willing to sell? Ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Maidros

I'm not sure about Japan, but couldn't the horse trade be done using an overland route and a port link in Bengal instead?

As for the Ming allowing Manchuria to sell horses, if it's late enough you won't have to worry about that, while if it's early enough the links between both countries might be sufficiently loose for this not to matter. At worst smuggling the horses could work...

archaeogeek said:

I'm not sure about Japan, but couldn't the horse trade be done using an overland route and a port link in Bengal instead?

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It is a little iffy. Land trade from Central Asia and/or Persia usually stopped in Delhi. Few traders would bring horses to Bengal. Bengal, particularly east of the Hoogly-Bhagirathi is a riverine delta, and the Bengal rulers had little use for horses in that river broken land. Also, if Vijayanagar got into trouble with the Delhi sultanate (as often was the case), the land route to Bengal might not be available.

As for the Ming allowing Manchuria to sell horses, if it's late enough you won't have to worry about that, while if it's early enough the links between both countries might be sufficiently loose for this not to matter. At worst smuggling the horses could work...

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Yes, smuggling would probably work, that is true. The Ming had some - shall we say - strange policies. They had their tributary system, wherein they allowed certain countries to trade only once every 2/5/10 (depending on who the trading country was) years in only three Chinese ports (Macao, Guangzhou and Ningbo). And I cannot see Vijayanagar accepting that - their need for horses is too great to accept that condition.

As for Joseon, they were strongly conservative and did not encourage anyone to trade. It is up in the air whether they would allow Vijayanagar to import Manchurian horses through their ports.

maidros said:

Hello,
I am writing an alternate timeline of Vijayanagar (a peninsular Indian empire), which I hope to make a naval power, rather than a land power. The question I have is this and the time I have in mind is between 1430 and 1490.

India had a chronic shortage of horses. Horses don't do all that well in Indian climate and India always imported horses (mainly from the Arabs, Persians and the Central Asians).

My question is this: Supposing a navally inclined Vijayanagar empire had problems with the Arabs because both are trying to grab trade opportunities, (the sea lanes from Persia were controlled by the Arab seamen and the land Persian and the Central Asian land routes were always far more difficult for importers in peninsular India), where else could they import horses from?

I have a potential solution - Manchuria. Manchuria certainly had an abundance of horses and the Jurchen used them to get whatever they wanted. There were Ming Chinese horse markets and the Jurchen traded extensively with the Ming, selling horses to get the Chinese goods. Would the Jurchen be willing to (or be allowed to by the Ming) sell horses to Vijayanagar, if the Vijayanagar navy got that far north? And assuming that Vijayanagar navy did get that far north, what would be the ports from which they could trade? Through Ming China? Through Joseon Korea? Or further north, through the east Siberian ports that were principally in Jurchen hands?

And what about Japan? Did they have an abundance of horses and would they be willing to sell? Ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Maidros

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Always nice to see a Vijayanagar TL- in my own Vijayanagar Ascendant I couldn't really find a solution to this problem. What I did was sidestep it by having Vijayanagaran survival be based on the adoption of shot and pike tactics from Portuguese sources. ITTL, however, my Vijayanagara was mainly a land power and indeed fared quite badly against the French navy in a WW1 analogue (they won the land war against their opponents in India but most of their navy went to the bottom).

First of all, you don't want north Asian steppe horses for the hot Indian climate. There are horses in Burma and Java, these are famous for being hardy in the tropics, but are rather small. You can import these and cross them with native mares. Importing stallions is the way to go. You can't realistically import tens of thousands of horses.

If the superb Arabians are off limits you can try the equally excellent Turkmen breeds from Central Asia - if you can work out a land route. Otherwise see if the Portugese can sell some. Iberian horses are known for their quality.

maidros said:

Hello,
I am writing an alternate timeline of Vijayanagar (a peninsular Indian empire), which I hope to make a naval power, rather than a land power. The question I have is this and the time I have in mind is between 1430 and 1490.

India had a chronic shortage of horses. Horses don't do all that well in Indian climate and India always imported horses (mainly from the Arabs, Persians and the Central Asians).

My question is this: Supposing a navally inclined Vijayanagar empire had problems with the Arabs because both are trying to grab trade opportunities, (the sea lanes from Persia were controlled by the Arab seamen and the land Persian and the Central Asian land routes were always far more difficult for importers in peninsular India), where else could they import horses from?

I have a potential solution - Manchuria. Manchuria certainly had an abundance of horses and the Jurchen used them to get whatever they wanted. There were Ming Chinese horse markets and the Jurchen traded extensively with the Ming, selling horses to get the Chinese goods. Would the Jurchen be willing to (or be allowed to by the Ming) sell horses to Vijayanagar, if the Vijayanagar navy got that far north? And assuming that Vijayanagar navy did get that far north, what would be the ports from which they could trade? Through Ming China? Through Joseon Korea? Or further north, through the east Siberian ports that were principally in Jurchen hands?

And what about Japan? Did they have an abundance of horses and would they be willing to sell? Ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Maidros

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Oh crap. This idea is going to be appearing in Raptor of Spain sometime in the next few months with the Cholas filling the role of Vijayanagar but a Chinese kingdom will provide an assist.

Japan is not a good place for horses in terms of surplus AND size. For instance Japanese horses are almost too small to do lance-charging of cavalry, in fact it is more likely that there was no European-style charge at even Nagashino because the horses just weren't large enough to make it effective. What probably happened is one of Shingen's wings was destroyed in a failed flanking maneuver and the rest of his army collapsed. Interestingly the Japanese brought horses with them when they first arrived in Japan in the south but it was the northern Emishi/Ainu that became excellent horse-breeders once they got the horses from the Japanese so much so that the Japanese became a major source of demand for horses from the Ainu peoples. In fact in RoS, the Ainu-kingdom the Chinese and Koreans call Moujin trades horses with the Jurchens.

Flocculencio said:

Always nice to see a Vijayanagar TL- in my own Vijayanagar Ascendant I couldn't really find a solution to this problem. What I did was sidestep it by having Vijayanagaran survival be based on the adoption of shot and pike tactics from Portuguese sources. ITTL, however, my Vijayanagara was mainly a land power and indeed fared quite badly against the French navy in a WW1 analogue (they won the land war against their opponents in India but most of their navy went to the bottom).

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I read your timeline a few weeks ago and it is excellent. Your timeline was one of the things that inspired me to write my own. And for your POD (most of your battles take place in the 1600s and 1700s), a pike and shot based tactic is perfectly possible, since gunpowder technology had evolved much further by then. But for my POD (beginning in the 1350s), a pike and shot formation is not possible, although even in my timeline, Vijayanagar has a strong and well developed infantry, and depends as little as possible on horsemen. Thanks for the encouragement.
Regards,
Maidros

tallwingedgoat said:

First of all, you don't want north Asian steppe horses for the hot Indian climate.

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Yes, you are right about this point. The Jurchen horses were uncomfortable south of the Yangtze and I cannot see them any more happy about Indian weather.

There are horses in Burma and Java, these are famous for being hardy in the tropics, but are rather small. You can import these and cross them with native mares. Importing stallions is the way to go. You can't realistically import tens of thousands of horses.

Click to expand...

Assuming that the Vijayanagar use Burmese/Javan/native horses (yes, there were some good Indian breeds like the Marwari horse) all of which are rather small, what tactics would they employ? Skirmishing as a light cavalry? Armed with swords/sabres/lances? These small horses may not be good chargers. And would it encourage Vijayanagar to develop horse archery tactics?

If the superb Arabians are off limits you can try the equally excellent Turkmen breeds from Central Asia - if you can work out a land route. Otherwise see if the Portugese can sell some. Iberian horses are known for their quality.

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Well, this is an interesting idea. And actually, your suggestion might just give Vijayanagar an incentive to `look west' and even try their playing their hand to see if they can snatch some of the Persian routes from the Arabs, just to get their hands on the horses.

And as for your suggestion about Iberian horses, I have a plan for Vijayanagar's horse problem past 1475. The problem for Vijayanagar is not just the climate, but also the lack of good open grassland in the peninsula for the horses. Even in drier areas, Indian vegetation tends to degenerate to a dry scrub land rather than a grassland.

maidros said:

Well, this is an interesting idea. And actually, your suggestion might just give Vijayanagar an incentive to `look west' and even try their playing their hand to see if they can snatch some of the Persian routes from the Arabs, just to get their hands on the horses.

And as for your suggestion about Iberian horses, I have a plan for Vijayanagar's horse problem past 1475. The problem for Vijayanagar is not just the climate, but also the lack of good open grassland in the peninsula for the horses. Even in drier areas, Indian vegetation tends to degenerate to a dry scrub land rather than a grassland.

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Raiding for horses is perfectly reasonable. In China a Han dynasty emperor once launched a 100,000 man invasion of the Fergana Valley just to grab 100 or so breeding stallions, probably the ancestors of the modern Akhal Teke breed - arguably the best desert breed around. The Arabian is another outstanding desert breed, and used all over the world as a breed enhancer. They have excellent fertility and many great breeds have at least some Arabian blood, including the Marwari.

It is not necessary to have grasslands for raising horses. Arabians and Akhal Tekes are best grain fed. Horses that live semi-feral lives tend to get smaller as the generations go by. In the 19th century there was an attempt to breed Arabians in India which didn't work out too well because they were not properlly cared for. OTOH raising horses in stables is expensive and requires sustained effort.

Well the Irish would always be willing to sell as many horse as Possible. Can't trust the Breeding Books, but the Horses are excellent.

DuQuense said:

Well the Irish would always be willing to sell as many horse as Possible. Can't trust the Breeding Books, but the Horses are excellent.

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But Irish horses are influenced by the Iberian breeds, rumored to be the ones that swam to shore after the sinking of the Spanish Armada. So this would be too early.

tallwingedgoat said:

First of all, you don't want north Asian steppe horses for the hot Indian climate. There are horses in Burma and Java, these are famous for being hardy in the tropics, but are rather small. You can import these and cross them with native mares. Importing stallions is the way to go. You can't realistically import tens of thousands of horses.

If the superb Arabians are off limits you can try the equally excellent Turkmen breeds from Central Asia - if you can work out a land route. Otherwise see if the Portugese can sell some. Iberian horses are known for their quality.

Click to expand...

Could their be a mix breed of horses like a combination of burma and north asian steppe horses? Or not

Russian Sailor said:

Could their be a mix breed of horses like a combination of burma and north asian steppe horses? Or not

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In theory yes. It takes money and knowlegable breeders a long time to do it. Results are never guaranteed though. The Burmese horses were probably decendents of the Mongolian horse anyways, so that makes it easier.

maidros said:

Assuming that the Vijayanagar use Burmese/Javan/native horses (yes, there were some good Indian breeds like the Marwari horse) all of which are rather small, what tactics would they employ? Skirmishing as a light cavalry? Armed with swords/sabres/lances? These small horses may not be good chargers. And would it encourage Vijayanagar to develop horse archery tactics?

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IIRC Indian cavalry in general didn't tend to be charge cavalry but rather irregular skirmishers. My knowledge is, admittedly, from the 17th C onward and that might not have been as true in the 12th-13th C. I know the Rajputs used armoured cavalry, but they had a feudal system to keep their knights able to maintain that.

Developing horse archery is a bit more difficult since, really, for that you need to have a suitable cultural base.

But Irish horses are influenced by the Iberian breeds, rumored to be the ones that swam to shore after the sinking of the Spanish Armada. So this would be too early.

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There is some archaeological evidence that some of the Celts that raided Rome, were riding Irish breed Horses. The Irish have been in the Horse business a long time.

Flocculencio said:

IIRC Indian cavalry in general didn't tend to be charge cavalry but rather irregular skirmishers. My knowledge is, admittedly, from the 17th C onward and that might not have been as true in the 12th-13th C. I know the Rajputs used armoured cavalry, but they had a feudal system to keep their knights able to maintain that.

Developing horse archery is a bit more difficult since, really, for that you need to have a suitable cultural base.

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Well, south India never had a good cavalry at any time, so the horse archery bit stretches credulity a lot. Also, unless the Vijayanagar empire imports a lot of mercenary captains from eastern Persia or Central Asia or Manchuria, there are not a lot of horse archers around to train the wannabe horse archers.

I am inclined to believe that the horsemen would be used principally for light cavalry duties - screening, scouting and skirmishing. Charging horsemen would be few and far between. Vijayanagar's defence would have to rest on a strong and well disciplined infantry.

maidros said:

Well, south India never had a good cavalry at any time, so the horse archery bit stretches credulity a lot. Also, unless the Vijayanagar empire imports a lot of mercenary captains from eastern Persia or Central Asia or Manchuria, there are not a lot of horse archers around to train the wannabe horse archers.

I am inclined to believe that the horsemen would be used principally for light cavalry duties - screening, scouting and skirmishing. Charging horsemen would be few and far between. Vijayanagar's defence would have to rest on a strong and well disciplined infantry.

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What you'll need to think of here is revamping the political system. To get disciplined heavy infantry you need a state centralised enough to raise, equip and train a corps of professional soldiers. In Indian political theory, states weren't usually this centralised- even the great Indian empires tended to be collections of states acknowledging the supremacy of an overlord rather than Imperial provinces answerable to central authority.

Flocculencio said:

What you'll need to think of here is revamping the political system. To get disciplined heavy infantry you need a state centralised enough to raise, equip and train a corps of professional soldiers. In Indian political theory, states weren't usually this centralised- even the great Indian empires tended to be collections of states acknowledging the supremacy of an overlord rather than Imperial provinces answerable to central authority.

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I agree with you here. And early Vijayanagar (1335-1400) has all the ingredients for this type of centralised administration and a heavy infantry. The Khilji-Tughluq invasions had destroyed the bulk of the nobility in the Kakatiya and Hoysala kingdoms. And what nobility remained of the Kakatiya kingdom gravitated towards the Musunuri Nayaks of Andhra initially, rather than the Vijayanagar kingdom. The Nayak system (a classic feudal system) of Vijayanagar did not start until around 1400, when after the total defeat of the Musunuri Andhra kingdom at the hands of the Bahmani empire, the remaining Nayaks migrated to Vijayanagar.

In early Vijayanagar, the new nobility was created, often from scratch, by the first kings, Harihara, Bukka Raya, and Harihara Raya. Given that I am assuming a more navally inclined Vijayanagar, Vijayanagar may, seeing the power of the meritocratic bureaucracy of the Ming empire, model their kingdom after that system rather than the traditional feudal systems of the Indian subcontinent. And the power of the Vijayanagar navy will improve communications and solve, to an extent, the problem of transport across distances in south India (getting to the coast from the central plateau was never easy in India except at specific places, because both the western ghats and the eastern ghats were very heavily wooded).

As for the heavy infantry, the navy and the merchant classes needed (and this was one reason why I chose early Vijayanagar for my POD), there is a surprising remark in the campaign of Madurai in the 1370s. Kampa Raya, the man leading the expedition, is said to have made an interesting decision, that is never properly explained anywhere. One of the primary sources of this period makes a curious remark, which basically says that Kampa Raya chose a marshy piece of land for his battle with the Madurai sultanate. He put his spearmen in front in a solid line (something like William Wallace at Stirling bridge, I would imagine) and the reckless Madurai sultanate horsemen charged against the spear wielding infantry on unfavourable ground, where the horsemen suffered heavy casualties and fled the field. The surprising thing is that no one else has mentioned much about this, and Vijayanagar never had a top class infantry to write home about.

The shipbuilding skills are readily available. The bay of Bengal had been a Chola lake scarcely two centuries ago, and the Indian ship builders in the south have always been good at their craft. It was to their skill that the Cholas owed their naval domination.

The only thing needed is for India to have its own powerful merchant class, who owe their power to the king. This can be easily conceived if one of the Vijayanagar kings, seeing how the Arabs control all his trade and how they charge exorbitant sums for the horses they bring in, decides to go to the source and see how much he can save. Also, to pay for the centralised army, he would need money and controlling trade is the best way of doing that.

Flocculencio said:

What you'll need to think of here is revamping the political system. To get disciplined heavy infantry you need a state centralised enough to raise, equip and train a corps of professional soldiers. In Indian political theory, states weren't usually this centralised- even the great Indian empires tended to be collections of states acknowledging the supremacy of an overlord rather than Imperial provinces answerable to central authority.

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Then we need rebellions and idiot aristocrats and an awesome leader eventually once this awesome ruler realises that autonomous states aren't going to work he is going to disband them and create a centralised state. In theory

One thing I'm always curious, how do you get out of the prohibition against sailing? I just kind of hand-waved it with the Cholas since they are known to have done a lot of that already.