The history of the Dutch republic

[pompejus]

The end of the Dutch revolt.

During last decades of the Dutch revolt, the Dutch were slowly beating the Spanish and moving southwards, cities like Maastricht, Venlo, Roermond and ‘s-Hertogenbosch. Spain was distracted not only by the Dutch revolt, but also by the religious wars in the Holy Roman Empire and the French who attacked the Southern Netherlands from the south. In 1637 the Dutch commander and stadholder Frederik Hendrik, the prince of Orange was laying a siege to Breda. During the siege disaster struck for the Spanish. The governor and military commander of the southern Netherlands, Don Ferdinand suddenly passed away. In the confusion that followed the Dutch managed to capture Breda and in 1638 moved south to Antwerp.

The successor of Don Ferdinand, Francisco de Melo concentrated mainly on the French troops, but still sent a force to relieve Antwerp, which was beaten by the Dutch. After a long siege Antwerp fell to the Dutch. From there the Dutch marched south, hoping to capture Ghent, but were beaten by the Spanish. From that moment the Dutch offensive concentrated on the north of Flanders, hoping to control both ends of the Schelde estuary, so they could use the port of Antwerp. In 1644 they captured Hulst and in 1645 Sas van Gent. In 1647 the Dutch moved to Bruges and manage to capture it, while a Spanish attack on Antwerp was beaten.

Near the end of the war in 1647 Frederik Hendrik died and his son Willem II succeeded him as stadholder of Holland and prince of Orange. His father had been known as “de stedendwinger”, because he had captured many cities. So Willem II wanted to prove he was as great as his father and attacked Ostend. The attack was beaten before it managed to capture Ostend and before he could launch another offensive. Peace was signed in 1648 in Münster. The Dutch revolt was over and the Dutch republic was officially independent, but much to Willem II chagrin Ostend and a large part of the southern Netherlands wasn’t part of it.

[pompejus]

Ok, I have decided to start a new timeline (I still might continue a Brother's betrayal though). The POD is that the Netherlands capture Antwerp and Bruges at the end of the Dutch revolt. The idea is to create a larger and wealthier catholic minority in the Netherlands. I will mainly focussing on the Netherlands and ignore most of the rest of the world, except those parts that are important for the Netherlands. I have no clue what to with for example the Ottoman Empire or China, so I 'll just leave them be. Anyway this is it.

[Parma]

A siege cost a lot of money. Money was provided to the Stadholders by the members os the State General the Consil of States. Most influencial members of this ruling bodies were the one of Holland and Amsterdam. They would never give their aproval for a siege of Antwerp.
Let Antwerp be taken by suprise, like happend in real, but failed due to; betrail? bad luck? incompetence? some were in 1630 -1632
When Antwerp is taken by ''accident'' then there evolve a force inside the State General to counter the influence ot Holland and Amsterdam and continue with the conquest of the South. And'' liberate'' the cradles of the revolt, the cities of Bruge, Genth Iepress.
There was also some divison plan in 1632, which was roughly OTL language border, this was initised by the van der Berg some decendant of the house of Orange who sided the King of Spain and the Netherlands. This guy changed sides several times.
Also and other point could be in 1632 when Frederik Henderick conquerd Limburg and MAastricht, the plan was to go West and Invade Brabant and Flandres, only he was avraid to take the gamble.
An other thing is the supper wealthy Andries Bicker, a major of Amsterdam and head of a rich merchant clan of two families. He was the spider in a web of selling arms to the Spanish and Dutch and with a part of the profit he subsidised the Spanish. Yes he paid the wages of the enemy soldiers. The goal was to prevent the Stadholders to gain control of the Southern Netherlands and Antwerp especialy. Best POD is to getthis guy have an accident or mortal disease.

[artha]

So you gave the Dutch a bigger part of the southern Netherlands. Are Brababnt and Flanders provinces or more like OTL Staats-Brabant?

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Parma

A siege cost a lot of money. Money was provided to the Stadholders by the members os the State General the Consil of States. Most influencial members of this ruling bodies were the one of Holland and Amsterdam. They would never give their aproval for a siege of Antwerp.

OTL the Dutch forces tried to capture Antwerp in 1638 and 1646. Both failed. I assume they had gotten the money and aproval for it OTL, because why else would they try.

Originally Posted by artha

So you gave the Dutch a bigger part of the southern Netherlands. Are Brababnt and Flanders provinces or more like OTL Staats-Brabant?

It isn't that much bigger than OTL, Flanders includes, besides Zeelandic Flanders, just Bruges, while Brabant includes just Antwerp and a bit of backcountry. So, at this point both are still generality lands. Roermond and Venlo btw, which weren't recaptured by the Spanish in this timeline aren't generalitylands, but are part of Gelderland.

[Ofaloaf]

Oh, capturing Brabant and Flanders at the tail end of the Eighty Years' War? That'll be interesting-- there'd be a couple generations of people there who have been completely cut off from the northern Netherlands. Integrating those southern Catholics will be a neat challenge for the Republic.

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Ofaloaf

Oh, capturing Brabant and Flanders at the tail end of the Eighty Years' War? That'll be interesting-- there'd be a couple generations of people there who have been completely cut off from the northern Netherlands. Integrating those southern Catholics will be a neat challenge for the Republic.

Well, it is only a small part. Just Antwerp and Bruges/Brugge (and Venlo and Roermond) actually. This shouldn't present more problems than 'S-Hertogenbosch or Breda

[Promethean]

I just hope you do plan on reconciling the Catholics early on. Im not really happy with how the north-Dutch treated the Generaliteitslanden for a long time. Even with large Catholic minorities above the rivers. Only Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe where over 80% Calvinist I believe.

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Promethean

I just hope you do plan on reconciling the Catholics early on. Im not really happy with how the north-Dutch treated the Generaliteitslanden for a long time. Even with large Catholic minorities above the rivers. Only Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe where over 80% Calvinist I believe.

Relatively early. In the 17th century there was still a lot of distrust against the catholics and to be fair with good reasons, just look how catholic coutries, including Spain and France treated their protestants. Look at how many (although certainly not all) the catholics were still more loyal to the pope than to their country. Look at the horible wars that have been fought in the name of catholisism, like the 30 and 80 year wars. I must admit though, the protestant didn't treat the catholics any better. Still a lot of distrust existed between catholics and protestants. So I consider it impossible for equality between catholics and protestants right after the Dutch revolt. It will change though and a lot earlier than OTL in the Netherlands.

Antwerp is natural harbor and will, of course, be used as such by enterprising Dutchmen. Antwerp will be one of the major Dutch ports and a good competitor of Amsterdam (although it will not surpass it). Antwerp and its citizens will become rich and yes the upperclass will be mostly protestants going south (and some converts trying to profit from them), most of the middle and lower class in Antwerp will remain catholic. Together with Flanders (and I am thinking of giving the Netherlands parts of Flanders in the future, at least Ghent and Ostend), they will demand equality to the other Dutch provinces, as they are more important for the Netherlands than a province as Gelderland or Overijssel. This will mean equality for the catholics, or at least the wealthy ones. This will be in the 18th century though, when religion plays a lot less important role than in the 17th century. I hope this is early enough for you.

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by pompejus

Antwerp is natural harbor and will, of course, be used as such by enterprising Dutchmen. Antwerp will be one of the major Dutch ports and a good competitor of Amsterdam (although it will not surpass it).

awww
Oh well, I can live with it if Antwerp becomes Europe's biggest port during the 20th century (basically switching places with Rotterdam)

On another note, and since I am living at spitting distance from it, what the hell is the border now?
Bruges and Antwerp, but not Ostend nor Gent could make a rather weird border. Sounds like you created two salients into the Southern Netherlands.

[Promethean]

Originally Posted by pompejus

Relatively early. In the 17th century there was still a lot of distrust against the catholics and to be fair with good reasons, just look how catholic coutries, including Spain and France treated their protestants. Look at how many (although certainly not all) the catholics were still more loyal to the pope than to their country. Look at the horible wars that have been fought in the name of catholisism, like the 30 and 80 year wars. I must admit though, the protestant didn't treat the catholics any better. Still a lot of distrust existed between catholics and protestants. So I consider it impossible for equality between catholics and protestants right after the Dutch revolt. It will change though and a lot earlier than OTL in the Netherlands.

Antwerp is natural harbor and will, of course, be used as such by enterprising Dutchmen. Antwerp will be one of the major Dutch ports and a good competitor of Amsterdam (although it will not surpass it). Antwerp and its citizens will become rich and yes the upperclass will be mostly protestants going south (and some converts trying to profit from them), most of the middle and lower class in Antwerp will remain catholic. Together with Flanders (and I am thinking of giving the Netherlands parts of Flanders in the future, at least Ghent and Ostend), they will demand equality to the other Dutch provinces, as they are more important for the Netherlands than a province as Gelderland or Overijssel. This will mean equality for the catholics, or at least the wealthy ones. This will be in the 18th century though, when religion plays a lot less important role than in the 17th century. I hope this is early enough for you.

Im not saying that the Catholics are all nice and that. Im just saying that as a Southern Dutchmen I do not look too kindly upon the whole thing in which the Hollanders see the Catholics as second rate citizens. Personally I am not a devout Catholic, I just dont like it that my ancestors where second rate to our current government.

Anyways ill try to support your TL and yes the early 18th century is good enough for me

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Xavier

awww
Oh well, I can live with it if Antwerp becomes Europe's biggest port during the 20th century (basically switching places with Rotterdam)

Actually that was what I was thinking. In the 17th and 18th century everything was located in Amsterdam. It would take centuries for Antwerp to come out of the shadow of Amsterdam, but in the End Antwerp has a better access to the sea than Amsterdam and in the 20th century it will be the bigger of the two.

Originally Posted by Xavier

On another note, and since I am living at spitting distance from it, what the hell is the border now?
Bruges and Antwerp, but not Ostend nor Gent could make a rather weird border. Sounds like you created two salients into the Southern Netherlands.

Well OTL border between the Netherlands and Belgium is pretty weird too. Just look at Zeelandic Flanders, which doesn't have a land connection with the rest of the Netherlands. At least in my timeline it does have one through Antwerp. The border is basicly a war border. That which the Dutch had managed to capture during the war before peace was made. Certainly Ghent and Ostend would be the next logical targets, they actually attacked both, but failed to capture it.

I think the border I created is a relatively logical one. First they capture Antwerp and next they go west trying to capture the southern part of the Westerschelde (Zeelandic Flanders), meaning that the port of Antwerp is free. From there they follow the Flemish coast (also, like Antwerp, hoping to cature possible ports), capture the first city they meet (Bruges)*, but do not manage to capture Ostend.

*Ok, maybe I also should have mentioned Knokke, which they probably end up first, but Knokke wasn't mentioned here, so i figured it wouldn't need a mention.

[pompejus]

The Dutch colonies of the mid 17th Century: the WIC

Through the Dutch East India Company (VOC) and the Dutch West India Company (WIC) the Dutch collected various colonies that brought the republic lots of wealth. The VOC mainly concentrated on the trade in Asia, while the WIC concentrated on the America’s, although both had a presence in Africa. A third company existed, the Nordic Company, which concentrated on whaling in the arctic and controlled Spitsbergen.

Colonies and outpost from the WIC

The New Netherlands: Founded in the early 17th century, It consisted mainly of settlements along the Hudson river and along the Zuyd river (Delaware river), which was briefly Swedish, but was conquered by the Dutch. The area up to the Versche river(Conecticut river)
was claimed, but barely settled and contested by the English living in nearby New England.

The Dutch West Indian Islands: Various islands were settled by the WIC, often captured from the Spanish. The Dutch managed to capture various Virgin Islands: Tortola, Virgin Gorda, St Thomas and and Jost van Dijk island, named after the man who captured them. Also the nearby islands of St Eustatius, Saba and St Martin became Dutch. In the south of Caribean, the WIC controlled Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao. Various other island were attempted to settle, including St Croix and Tobago, but those settlement failed.
New Holland: During the Dutch revolt, not only the Netherlands was part of the Spanish empire, the Portuguese were too. Before becoming part of the Spanish empire, they had managed to become a strong colonial power, with various colonies in Africa, Brazil, India and the Indonesian islands. Being part of the empire of the enemy and having extremely attractive colonies was good enough for a war and during that war the Dutch managed to capture various lucrative colonies. For the WIC the most important one was New Holland in Brazil. They managed to capture Recife and various neighbouring cities and plantations. Under the leadership of Johan Maurits of Nassau Siegen New Holland increased in size and managed to control the Portuguese population. The WIC wasn’t happy about the extravagance Maurits showed and the lack of profit, they forced him to increase production. This lead to a couple of revolts, which were roughly beaten down by WIC troops. In the end some areas were so depopulated, the Portuguese farmers had to be replaced by African slaves, but after a while New Holland was secured.

The African Gold coast: To get those African slaves needed for New Holland, but also the West Indian islands and to sell to various other European nations the WIC needed a presence in Africa. At first Angola was conquered from the Portuguese, but they managed to retake it. So the WIC looked north towards the gold coast. Various forts were created and deals were made with the natives. For various goods they would capture other natives ad sell them to the Dutch, who would transport them to the America’s.

[pompejus]

The Dutch colonies of the mid 17th Century: the VOC

As the WIC concentrated on the America’s, so did the VOC concentrate on Asia. The Dutch captured Batavia in 1619, which became the Dutch stronghold in the Area. From there the Dutch managed to capture a lot of Portuguese colonies, including the Maluku or spice islands, Ceylon, Various trading posts in India (including Cochin, Nagapattinam, Cranganore) were capture from the Portuguese and Malacca on the Malay Peninsula.

Various other places were taken outside the war, like Chinsurah in Bengal and various trading posts at the Coromandel coast. In Sumatra the VOC owned Palembang. The VOC controlled various trading posts in many parts of Asia, including Deshima in Japan. The VOC were the only Europeans allowed to trade with Japan.

Africa: With the loss of Angola the Portuguese, the VOC lost a halfway station. So in 1652 Jan van Riebeeck founded a new city at the African Cape of good hope. This city, Capetown, became the centre of the Dutch Cape colony.

New Gelre: South of the Indonesian islands Dutch explorers found a large island. They mainly found dry useless land and so usually ignored it. The southwest of the island was close to the naval routes used to go from Africa to the Indonesian islands. The coast was treacherous and various ships stranded there. The crew of one of those ships, the Arnhem, managed to get aboard and found shelter near a river they called black swanriver after the black swans who lived their. They managed to survive and created a small settlement. 7 months later they were rescued, but some decided to stay. The colony only slowly grew as most Dutch or other colonists preferred the New Netherlands or the Cape over New Gelre.

[Xavier]

Hmm,
New Holland stays Dutch (with what will eventually become a very large black population?)
And you have a colony on OTL's Fremantles spot.
Could become interesting...
I didn't see anything on Formosa though, not happening or happening as OTL?

And about those borders, will they stagnate on those lines just as the OTL ones did, or will the, eh, "liberation" of Antwerp become a precedent for further conquests whenever the next war over the Southern Netherlands is fought?

[Promethean]

Subscribed!

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Xavier

Hmm,
New Holland stays Dutch (with what will eventually become a very large black population?)
And you have a colony on OTL's Fremantles spot.
Could become interesting...
I didn't see anything on Formosa though, not happening or happening as OTL?

Formosa happens like OTL. I didn't mention it, because I partly forgot and I didn't mention other failed colonies, like Mauritius.

Originally Posted by Xavier

And about those borders, will they stagnate on those lines just as the OTL ones did, or will the, eh, "liberation" of Antwerp become a precedent for further conquests whenever the next war over the Southern Netherlands is fought?

I don't want to give away too much, but I am planning for those borders to change in the future.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Very interesting time-line! I love the Dutch Republic and the way you've written it so far is quite compelling.

[artha]

Nice you found a good name for Australia (sorry mean New Gelre ). Are the British still intersted in it?

[mats]

Good TL! i'm waiting for more!