The British Empire......LIVES!!!

It is 2005. The British Empire has not fallen. In fact, the Imperial bonds have grown stronger, fostered by a common spirit of "imperial brotherhood". London is a highly diverse metropolis, with every ethnic group in the Empire finding it's own little piece of home in the Mother of Cities. The United Nations has its facilities in London and regularly meets there.

Thanks to the combined financial and economic contributions of the Home Islands and the Imperial Dominions, the Defence Estimates have ballooned to unheard-of proportions. Well over $1 trillion goes into the Armed Forces. The Royal Navy is world's largest, most powerful fleet. The British and Imperial Armies are an all-conquering force. The Royal Air Force rules the skies. Of the four superpowers in the world (US, Russia, China), Britannia lords her power over all the nations.

So, what do you guys thinks of this alternate timeline? :cool:
 
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Rex Imperator said:
It is 2005. The British Empire has not fallen. In fact, the Imperial bonds have grown stronger, fostered by a common spirit of "imperial brotherhood". London is a highly diverse metropolis, with every ethnic group in the Empire finding it's own little piece of home in the Mother of Cities. The United Nations has its facilities in London and regularly meets there.

Thanks to the combined financial and economic contributions of the Home Islands the Imperial Dominions, the Defence Estimates have ballooned to unheard-of proportions. Well over $1 trillion goes into the Armed Forces. The Royal Navy is world's largest, most powerful fleet. The British and Imperial Armies are an all-conquering force. The Royal Air Force rules the skies. Of the four superpowers in the world (US, Russia, China), Britannia lords her power over all the nations.

So, what do you guys thinks of this alternate timeline? :cool:
How do you get there?
 
Yeah, getting there is all the fun. As the final outcome is extremely implausible, we need to see the timeline to make it interesting.
 
I can see this happening if the British win a smashing victory over Germany in WW2. The strain of fighting the war is what lost them their empire in the first place. Perhaps no battle of Britain, Germnay goes after Russia during the "missing year", gets bloodied and England invades Europe in force with little US assistance?
 
Maybe Britain insists on Russian North America as a result of the Crimean War? Then, later on in the next century, a federalized Britain absorbs its dominion known as Canada?
 
How about if the USA never got their independence? then the British empire would have all the resources of the USA aswell
 
This could just as easily be an ideology POD then a political. After all, imperialism was popular in the Dominions for actualy longer than it was in the motherland. Just have a new wave of imperialism. I think eventualy more and more areas would become more self governing, similar to dominons, but, yet again, thoes areas have proven to be the most prosperous in the world.

I think this world is MUCH better than our own.
 
The best POD is no First world war, followed in a few years by Anglo-German rapprochement against Russia and later against the US (in the same spirit as the Venezuelan debt crisis)
After that all things become possible
 
Nah, the best POD is a better response to the Irish Potato famine in the 1840's.

1801 was the formal act of union between Britain and Ireland, a sort of "we've had lousy relations for the past 800 or so years, let's start anew". The potato famine was the first big test of that Act and the British Government failed abysmally.

If the Irish were given emergency relief, the insistance on grain exports curtailed etc then the Irish Nationalist movement would have been confined to a couple of drunk men in a small Derry tavern.

Of course, there would still be a mass migration from Ireland but rather than the United States, some of these Irishmen might travel to Canada, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa swelling the populations there. A canny Government would offer incentives to potential migrants.

Secondly, there has to be NO "Glorious Isolation". Britain has to take an active role in European and global affairs.
 
If the Irish were given emergency relief, the insistance on grain exports curtailed etc then the Irish Nationalist movement would have been confined to a couple of drunk men in a small Derry tavern.

Of course, there would still be a mass migration from Ireland but rather than the United States, some of these Irishmen might travel to Canada, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa swelling the populations there. A canny Government would offer incentives to potential migrants.

Secondly, there has to be NO "Glorious Isolation". Britain has to take an active role in European and global affairs.[/QUOTE]

The Irish were given emergency relief and the Corn Laws were abolished in response to the famine.
The migration point is interesting, but will not put an end to centrifugal forces.
Splendid Isolation is a policy of the end of the nineteenth century. The British were considerably engaged in European affairs both diplomatically and militarily throughout the nineteentch century
 
Rex Imperator said:
It is 2005. The British Empire has not fallen. In fact, the Imperial bonds have grown stronger, fostered by a common spirit of "imperial brotherhood". London is a highly diverse metropolis, with every ethnic group in the Empire finding it's own little piece of home in the Mother of Cities. The United Nations has its facilities in London and regularly meets there.

Thanks to the combined financial and economic contributions of the Home Islands and the Imperial Dominions, the Defence Estimates have ballooned to unheard-of proportions. Well over $1 trillion goes into the Armed Forces. The Royal Navy is world's largest, most powerful fleet. The British and Imperial Armies are an all-conquering force. The Royal Air Force rules the skies. Of the four superpowers in the world (US, Russia, China), Britannia lords her power over all the nations.

So, what do you guys thinks of this alternate timeline? :cool:

Dude, I want to live in this world.

Firstly, I think there would have to be no world war 1, so that Britain did would not have a ruined and bankrupt economy, as well as not having to pay loans to the United States for 50 odd years. Britain would also not have to promise independence to India (in return for not rebelling), relations would have the potential to improve with Germany, and thus create greater peace in Europe, and Britain's population would not be weary of war and forever more see it as a 'glorious adventure'. If the world was able to avoid the mass killings of the Trenches. Therefore, The British government would be much more willing to use military action and may explain the large expenditures in this timeline on defense.

Also, I think rather than there being many different cultures within the empire, a British culture would need to be somehow promoted and with Britain absorbing dominions and the empire gradually, but with promotion and amnesty to form a federation of states. Something like perhaps “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and the Commonwealth” We would need to see greater investment in British colonies, to create gratitude and a feeling of thanks towards Britain. The United Kingdom would effectively turn into an Imperial British version of The United States, with most of the power being in London and the House of Commons incorporating MP’s from all over the empires (but perhaps these MP’s are effectively heads of the individual member nations? Like a Governor in the united states for example, but part of the national government

Perhaps we could see many more honorary members of the commonwealth who want to join The United Kingdom?
 
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Best POD is no First world war

I concur. WWI and WWII are what bankrupted Europe. Not to mention the death and destruction. Even if WWI occurs Britain should remain neutral. That is fairly easy to do, as Britain chose to ally herself with France and Russia, beginning in 1902.

Point of Departure
1902. Britain signs non aggression pacts with France and Germany. Later she will sign similiar pacts with Russia, Italy, and Japan. The treaties specifically state that an invasion of Belgium will void the agreement.

1905. Due to the Ango-German non aggression pact, the Schliffen plan (and it's later variants) are written differently. German troops will not enter Belgium unless France does so first.

1902 - 1914. Kaiser Wilhelm II continues making stupid statements, but Britain ignores them. It is action that counts, not words. Germany is invading no one during this period. The same cannot be said for Russia, Japan, France and Italy. And, despite his clumsy statements, it is obvious that Kaiser Wilhelm II genuinely likes Britain and her people.

An analysis concludes that, due to geographic positioning, the German navy would be at a major disadvantage vs Britain. Furthermore, except for Tsingtao, Germany is making no effort to arm her colonies or to prepare them for naval use. If Germany were actually preparing for a naval war with Britain then these colonies would almost certainly be developed into commerce raider bases. Britain will expand her fleet as life insurance, unless / until a naval treaty with Germany can be achieved.

1914 - 1950. WWI and/or WWII may or may not happen. But Britain will remain neutral, using seapower to insulate herself from the conflict. Britain actually profits from any conflict by selling non military goods to the warring partys. Because the RN is so powerful, no one can enforce a "distant blockade" on Britain.
 
You'll need a few PODs for all of this

LowLevelFunctionary said:
Britain would also not have to promise independence to India (in return for not rebelling)

This is going to be a rather unrealistic TL but hey...it's all good fun...

To retain India, you're going to have to avoid the Indian Mutiny. This conflict irreparably crippled Anglo-Indian relations.

Without the Mutiny, India is seen as a far more placid and easily governed society and the hand of the East India Company is far lighter (in this TL, the EIC would remain in charge of India until the late 19th C). It's probably less developed by the end of the 19th C, but it's people have grown to easily accept the benevolent dictatorship of Company rule. Many of the lower ranking Company posts have been taken on by educated Indians and they are slowly but surely making their way up the company ladder. One of the Directors of the Company is an Indian maharaja.

Meanwhile in Europe, Anglo-French relations deteriorate to the point where Britain begins to align itself with Germany while France makes overtures to Russia.

In June 1911, the Second Franco-Prussian War breaks out. Although Britain does not take part in the war, it adopts a position of friendly neutrality, using the might of the Royal Navy to ensure that German ports stay open and supplies can flow in.

Russia, daunted by the prospect of facing both Britain and Germany stays neutral too, concentrating on it's internal problems.

The Second Franco-Prussian War ends in August 1913 with the signing of the Treaty of Brandenburg between France and the German Empire. France cedes her territories in Indo-China to Germany and settles down to lick her wounds.

Britain, having made a tidy profit from the war, stands secure at this moment. Canada, Australia and New Zealand are prospering. In South Africa, the boers have been quelled for the moment and in India, the East India Company is preparing to hand over the reins of power to a government agency, the government of the Indian dominion. The Dominion of India is nowhere near the level of, say, Canada- it runs on representative democracy but only allows suffrage to males who are literate in one of the official languages of the Dominion.

The first Head of State is an Englishman, a Governor-General appointed in London to rule in Calcutta, as is the second but with this man's death, in 1930, for the first time ever, an Indian is appointed as Governor-General of the Dominion. A stable system arises with alternating muslims and hindus as Governors-General. The Indian Parliament is an often chaotic body but all in all it does a pretty good job of running the country. Slowly but surely, the government embarks on a process of industrialisation.

In 1950, financial reforms sweep the Empire. Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom all join a unified currency group, the Imperial Pound. India, South Africa and the various other entities that form the empire are given economic targets to meet before they can join the Imperial Currency Union.

In the same year, Queen Elizabeth II is given a new title to add to her already long list: Empress of South China. After China's disintegration into warlordism in the 1920's, Britain and Germany divided the country into two spheres of influence, Britain, South of the Yangtze and Germany, North of it. Both Power had accepted Japan's occupation of Korea, Taiwan and Manchuria. In 1950, with the crowning of Elizabeth (who had travelled to Nanjing for the coronation), the British sector officially became the Empire of South China and was governed by the crown. The first Viceroy was Sir Jagdish Singh, a Sikh official who had ben born in the Punjab but who had spent his life working in the British Administration in China.

Although this was a controversial appointment, with many of the more conservative elements of the British Government looking askance at it, the queen herself had made the choice.

War reared it's head again in March 1952 when Russia, eager to distract it's volatile masses with a war, declared war on the German Empire. Russian troops clashed with German forces along the Vistula. France, in support of her Russian Allies struck into the Rhineland. Both advances were swiftly halted by the German army but it was clear that with the vast manpower reserves at Russia's disposal the Eastern Front might not be able to hold.

On the 23rd of March 1952, Great Britain declared war on France and the Russian Empire. All the Dominions swiftly followed suit. Japan somewhat unexpectedly also declared war, although only on Russia, eager to advance further into Siberia.

In Asia, most of the fighting lay on the Siberian Front. Japanese troops, acting in conjunction with German and British/Dominion forces struck deep into Siberia.
Although there had been much speculation in the Indian press about a Russian advance through Central Asia, there was little action on this front, save for some skirmishing along the Afghan/Russian border.

In Europe, the Rhineland and Baltic Prussia were devastated by the fighting though slowly but surely, the French and Russians were being pushed back. As Allied troops flowed into Germany from Britain, Canada, South Africa and India (ANZAC troops being diverted mainly to the Asian theatre). The enemy armies began to crumble. As food stockpiles began to dwindle both in France and Russia, ominous rumblings of rebellion began to be voiced.

On May 18th 1954, the Russian government collapsed. A republic is proclaimed as the country dissolves into civil war between Royalists and Republicans. The Republican government sues for peace with Germany, ceding some territory in Eastern Europe and for peace with Japan, ceding Mongolia and parts of Siberia.

France too, asks for terms. The government that prosecuted the war is swept out of office that same year.

In January 1955, the leaders of Europe gather at the Congress of London, to attempt to direct and stabilise the 20th Century as the Congress of Berlin did in the 19th.

Germany still remains strong although pushed into debt and suffering from the loss of many young men in the Great War. It agrees to sell German East Africa to Great Britain.

The boundaries of the various European states are reconfirmed. France is left with a relatively light punishment. Russia, however, still locked in Civil War is unrepresented at the Council. To make matters worse, it appears that an ultranationalist Tsarist faction has gained the upper hand...
Shocked by the heavy casualties of the Great War, the major nations of the world decide to form an international forum based in London to attempt to arbitrate future disputes. The foiunding members of the United Nations are Great Britain, India, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Germany, France, Siam, The Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Italy, Greece, Austria and the Ottoman Empire. The United States opts to take observer status. It is unintrested in European affairs preferring to resume it's steady mission of advancing it's influence further and further into Latin America.

Fifty years later, in 2005, the Pax Britannia still holds strong. Britain and her Dominions are collectively the unopposed superpower of the world. Russia comes in second, although few details are known of the oppressive and theocratic land of the Tsars. Germany, Britain and Japan form the Triple Alliance devoted to containing the Russians. So far this strategy of encirclement has worked, both sides content merely to glare at each other across the heavily defended borders of Russia, sometimes launching a new form of satellite or by testing an even larger nuke.

Germany went through a liberalisation after the Great War and is now a consitutional monarchy. Japan, while still far behind the Western nations in terms of liberalisation is far more open than it used to be.

The United States has grown- in 2004, it announced that Costa Rica would be granted statehood as the fifty-eighth state. While it is not officially part of the Triple Alliance, the US government adopts a policy of friendly neutrality towards Britain, Germany and Japan and one of hostile neutrality towards Russia.
 
These timelines are essentially based on the premise that "nothing happens" for fourty years so the British empire survives
on the other hand consider something more like the following the following:

1914: Archduke Ferdinand narrowly survives assassination in Sarajeo. The Austrian government bullies concessions from Serbia in response. The Archduke himself continues with his policy to build a triple monarch.

1916: Anglo-German non-aggression talks begin, stimulated by German concern atthe cost of the naval arms race and fears of growing Russian strength. The British concern is the continuing crisis in Ireland.

1918: Smyrna War. Britain and Germany face down Russian intervention in a renewed clash between Greece and the Ottoman Empire

1921: final collapse of the Ottoman Empire, cared out between the Great powers. Increasing Angl0-German fear of Russian domination of Europe
Britain renews Japanese alliance at this time, supports build up of Japanese position in China.

1929- Wall Street Crash, steady rise of global trading blocs

1930 - Statute of Westminster creates new structures to bind dominions to the British empire
1931 - Russo-Japanese clash at Mukden.Britain and Germany support Japan

1940 - final collapse of Franco-Russian alliance as Russians ruthlessly crush Finnish revolt

1941 - signing of European Defence and Co-operation pact against Russia
Angl0-German work on the atomic bomb starts in the Kalahari desert

1945 - Anglo-German atom bomb tests

1946- Russian Imperial atom bomb tested in Siberia
Start of the Cold War
 
I'm sorry, but there is just no way that Britain is going to indefinitely maintain control over the non-European populations of the empire. Some sort of federation of the Dominions might be possible, but distance makes even that seem unlikely to me.

To make this possible, you would need a POD so far back that there probably wouldn't even BE a British Empire. You need to radically alter the very nature of European civilization to not regard themselves as innately vastly superior in every way to all others causing them to not ruthlessly exploit their territories and deliberately keep them underdeveloped.
 
Its a Irish-American lie that Britain could have relieved the potato famine and chose not to.
The potato blight affected the whole of Europe, not just Ireland. A lot of Europe suffered large scale famine. Britain released ships to help evacuate people from Ireland and set its soldiers to stopping the place degenerating into full on anarchy.
Britain could have done more but not to the extent that the Irish-Americans say when talking about Britain like a big evil bogey man.


To make this possible, you would need a POD so far back that there probably wouldn't even BE a British Empire. You need to radically alter the very nature of European civilization to not regard themselves as innately vastly superior in every way to all others causing them to not ruthlessly exploit their territories and deliberately keep them underdeveloped.
...erm... You are thinking of other European empires there. Britain was different. Just compare nations formally owned by us to those the Dutch and French had. Britain activly worked to do what it believed was best for the colonies, these ideas were often misled though for the time they were believed to be right (i.e. reliance on one crop).
For not regarding themselves as innately superior...Britain was innately superior, you would need to install one hell of a modesty complex to have people not think that.

Kill the American revolution before it starts and we have a closer to perfect world then today, most likely along British lines.
At the latest WW1 is where you can save Britain without maintaining a worldwide empire becoming too uneconomical.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
I'm sorry, but there is just no way that Britain is going to indefinitely maintain control over the non-European populations of the empire. Some sort of federation of the Dominions might be possible, but distance makes even that seem unlikely to me.

Why not? the British Empire was brought down through conflicts with rival Empires and domestic revulsion, not native action.
It is entirely plausible for Britain to keep its African colonies.
India would be a trickier matter, and would require a big shift in British racial attittudes in the late 19th C onwards. But even so - maybe if the Russians are at the door the British and Indian elites will see a real need to accomodate
 

Tielhard

Banned
I see this as a rather implausible time-line. Rex Imperator seems to be having nocturnal power fantasies big time.

However if we are going to try to make this happen then the British need to do several things very early on:

1) Balkanize North America deny the USA the opportunity to expand. So either keep going during the American revolution, win in 1814, fight and win in 1857 or support the confedracy and Mexico and ensure a win in 1859-1865. Otherwise the USA's production capacity will grow beyond that of a centralised empire in the end.
2) Keep the Chinese down and preferably disunited. With so many people in the end they will become a significant if not the dominant economic power.
3) Keep India. The velvet glove did not work too well perhaps it is time for the iron fist.
4) Russia/Soviet Union/Whatever must never be a manufacturing power. Cut into its Asian empire if possible. Kamchatka, Alaska and Sakhalin need to be British for starters. Give good trade terms to European Russia for manufactured goods.

The key words are: ruthless, cynical, divide & conquor.
 
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