Suppose the Great Depression in the USA was much, much worse (millions starving etc.) and there was a Communist Revolution in the 1930s. How would WW2 have happened? Which side would the USA be on? Would the USA be allies of the USSR or would they be enemies (communist countries often distrusted each other like the split between communist Russia & China) How long would a communist system last in a country like America?
United States: Communist Revolution 1935
- Thread starter blueczar
- Start date
Raymann
Banned
So having a commie revolution assumes they win? If not then the US is dealing with it and wouldn't provoke the japanese in the first place.
But even saying all that is iffy. If the US is THAT bad off, then the rest of the world must really be in a mess. You can't have war if you can't afford it, even in the short run.
But even saying all that is iffy. If the US is THAT bad off, then the rest of the world must really be in a mess. You can't have war if you can't afford it, even in the short run.
I was thinking more of the POD being a terrible depression which caused the revolution, so it wouldnt matter which president was in power. I thought that if ever there was a chance of a communist revolution in USA (really unlikely given everyones belief in liberty freedom etc) that it would have been in the 1930s depression.
Anyway, I was thinking what would have happened in Europe with Hitler if the USA was communist??? (Suppose Britain, France still democratic) Maybe Britain would have had no US support in the battle of britain.. until Hitler attacked the USSR, then the US might have about faced and declared war on Germany.
Maybe the USSR would have declared war on Japan after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Suppose then the USA, USSR, Britain defeat the Axis, what would happen with the Cold War? I doubt that a Communist USA would take orders from Moscow, so there would be friction, possibly there would be a Cold War between the two countries anyway.. Eventually the system would probably have collapsed, maybe in the 1980s just like it did in our TL and given way to democracy again. Or maybe there would be freedom fighters and civil war in the US like in that Patrick Swayze film, Red Dawn, until the Reds were overthrown
Anyway, I was thinking what would have happened in Europe with Hitler if the USA was communist??? (Suppose Britain, France still democratic) Maybe Britain would have had no US support in the battle of britain.. until Hitler attacked the USSR, then the US might have about faced and declared war on Germany.
Maybe the USSR would have declared war on Japan after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Suppose then the USA, USSR, Britain defeat the Axis, what would happen with the Cold War? I doubt that a Communist USA would take orders from Moscow, so there would be friction, possibly there would be a Cold War between the two countries anyway.. Eventually the system would probably have collapsed, maybe in the 1980s just like it did in our TL and given way to democracy again. Or maybe there would be freedom fighters and civil war in the US like in that Patrick Swayze film, Red Dawn, until the Reds were overthrown
Superdude
Banned
Sorry for wording it really badly.
I meant that It would be more plausible for the Ku Klux Klan to take over American politics during the Depression. A simple POD during the 1920s would allow that to happen, not that I would rather have the KKK controlling the country. That wouldn't be too pleasant for me, since Im a Catholic.
Oh, Im a white American.
I meant that It would be more plausible for the Ku Klux Klan to take over American politics during the Depression. A simple POD during the 1920s would allow that to happen, not that I would rather have the KKK controlling the country. That wouldn't be too pleasant for me, since Im a Catholic.
Oh, Im a white American.
I could see the Japanese gobbling up the Phillipines with Britain turning a blind eye, after all, the USA is communist now. Maybe Britain sends in a halfhearted invasion through Canada building some animosity between the two nations. As well, maybe Britain seizes Hawaii and Alaska and some other Caribbean possesions. It depends on how the revolution works out. The longer and bloodier the revolution gets, the more everyone is going to take because America's in no shape to do anything about it.
If the Klan had had better luck with leaders, and had avoided some really embarrassing scandals (D.C. Stephenson was the worst, but there were plenty of others) it could have remained strong into the early 1930s. Add a dynamic leader (someone like Huey Long, but without the thick southern drawl that hurt him nationally) and you could have a recipe for real trouble.
The Communists themselves were never a "grass-roots" organization the way the Klan was, at least for a while. They were too heavily identified with "greasy foreigners," and most people outside the intelligentsia saw them as Moscow's little cats-paws.
Now, for a Communist-type revolution, make some of the big strikes in places like Detroit worse, and add in a charismatic leader with access to radio. Such a movement would do well to avoid a lot of things the Communists did, especially picking fights with organized religion.
The Communists themselves were never a "grass-roots" organization the way the Klan was, at least for a while. They were too heavily identified with "greasy foreigners," and most people outside the intelligentsia saw them as Moscow's little cats-paws.
Now, for a Communist-type revolution, make some of the big strikes in places like Detroit worse, and add in a charismatic leader with access to radio. Such a movement would do well to avoid a lot of things the Communists did, especially picking fights with organized religion.
ninebucks
Banned
A lot more people in Europe would begin to see Adolf Hitler's point. If the 'Red Threat' of a Communist Russia was enough to turn half of Europe fascist, then the 'Red Threat' of a Communist Russia and America will be enough to turn the whole continent fascist.
World War Two will between a united Europe and a communist USA and USSR.
World War Two will between a united Europe and a communist USA and USSR.
I think you underestimate peoples ability. When people are desperate enough and demoralized enough they will welcome any type of government.
You just need a large break down in military order, i.e mass starvation and unemployment leads to mass rioting across the country, and the police force refuses to fire on the crowd when ordered to do so etc....
You just need a large break down in military order, i.e mass starvation and unemployment leads to mass rioting across the country, and the police force refuses to fire on the crowd when ordered to do so etc....
However, the US has much more of a far right-wing streak than a far-left. Religion, jingoism, hard times, and a very strong capitalist history, all of these would work together more towards militant nationalistic fascism than communism.
ninebucks
Banned
So did Russia, you could argue.
All an American revolution would require is for a few key states to be taken, the East Coast states, California, the Great Lakes states and probably the Black-majority states in the South. The idea of these states supporting a communist revolution in the 1930s is not so outlandish.
Obviously, from there, America is almost bound for a civil war. But seeing as the Reds have control of the industrial heartland, it is a war they are destined to win. Inevitably, the Federal Government will surrender to the Communists, and from then on its just a matter of suppressing the counter-revolutionaries in the fly-over states.
It occurs to me that a radical left movement in the US in the 1930s might well have a religious flavour.
Here's an idea. POD of 1902. Extremely minor at first, but it butterflies. Charles Coughlin, aged 11, comes across a young boy being beaten simply because he is Jewish. Coughlin helps the other boy home and decides that hating or hurting another for something like that is petty.
There's the POD. Coughlin grows up and when the depression hits (before FDR is elected) now Father Coughlin begins a radio show. He calls for more left leaning ideas as the pitiful efforts of Herbert Hoover's administration continually fail he, and his listeners slowly inch towards the left out of frustration. 1932 comes along and the Democratic ticket of FDR/Long is announced. Coughlin backs this and his listening base grows and follows his lead. November 1932 brings in a landslide victory for the democratic party and their "Fair & Square pact". Anyone else have an idea?
There's the POD. Coughlin grows up and when the depression hits (before FDR is elected) now Father Coughlin begins a radio show. He calls for more left leaning ideas as the pitiful efforts of Herbert Hoover's administration continually fail he, and his listeners slowly inch towards the left out of frustration. 1932 comes along and the Democratic ticket of FDR/Long is announced. Coughlin backs this and his listening base grows and follows his lead. November 1932 brings in a landslide victory for the democratic party and their "Fair & Square pact". Anyone else have an idea?