The end of WWI and of many empires led to a flurry of short-lived states like say Cossack nations or Tartarstan. What nations had a likely chance of forming or surviving, but didn't?
More post-WWI nations
- Thread starter Strategos' Risk
- Start date
Alex Richards
Donor
Depending on European intervention, you could get a Beloroussian state and a Ukrainian State (not to mention some Caucasian States).
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus, the Idel Ural State, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Belarus, the Ukraine and the Don and Kuban Hosts would all be nice, but would require some kind of complete collapse of Russia.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Belarus ain't happening. The national ideal was espoused by a committee of professors who got their power from the guns of the German army or Polish adventurers like Stanislav Bulak-Whatsisface. The Slavic peasantry (a clear majority of the population) thought they spoke Russian, the city folk actually did. Belarus was either going to be part of whatever Russia was calling itself, or kept alive by the only "western power" in any position to intervene, Poland - in which case it would have been nothing but a Polish province in the "Intermarum", ruled by Polish landlords.
Here's some ideas:
- Croatia. The mostly Yugoslav Hapsburg troops on the Italian front fell into Italians hands late in the war - if they hadn't, the post-Austrian authorities in Croatia might not have been so quick to proclaim unification with the Serbian kingdom in Yugoslavia.
- Ukraine. I can just about see a Ukrainian republic surviving with lots of backing from France, Poland, or both - alternatively, if Russia splinters, France could back up a White "Yugorussia" centred in what we'd now call Ukraine.
- Georgia. The best candidate for independence in the Caucasus, having a coherent state and army during the RCW and access to the sea, and hence aid from the Entente. If Russia collapsed into warlordism, Georgia would probably survive. In that case Armenia, Azerbaijan, and the MNC all have some sort of chance, too - although if not the Soviets, somebody else will have to make a major investment in keeping that lot outside Turkish influence.
- Some kind of a Kurdish state, maybe? I 'unno.
- East Prussia. If Germany fights on too long and turns red, the Junkers could be set up in a kind of Taiwan by the Poles. A slightly frivolous idea, but deliciously ironic.
Here's some ideas:
- Croatia. The mostly Yugoslav Hapsburg troops on the Italian front fell into Italians hands late in the war - if they hadn't, the post-Austrian authorities in Croatia might not have been so quick to proclaim unification with the Serbian kingdom in Yugoslavia.
- Ukraine. I can just about see a Ukrainian republic surviving with lots of backing from France, Poland, or both - alternatively, if Russia splinters, France could back up a White "Yugorussia" centred in what we'd now call Ukraine.
- Georgia. The best candidate for independence in the Caucasus, having a coherent state and army during the RCW and access to the sea, and hence aid from the Entente. If Russia collapsed into warlordism, Georgia would probably survive. In that case Armenia, Azerbaijan, and the MNC all have some sort of chance, too - although if not the Soviets, somebody else will have to make a major investment in keeping that lot outside Turkish influence.
- Some kind of a Kurdish state, maybe? I 'unno.
- East Prussia. If Germany fights on too long and turns red, the Junkers could be set up in a kind of Taiwan by the Poles. A slightly frivolous idea, but deliciously ironic.
Valdemar II
Banned
Banat are also a possiblility, through a very faint one, and it will have a hard time surviving the first 5 years, through if it does it will be a interesting state.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
The Banat would be simultanously claimed by Yugoslavia, Romania and Hungary though, and all it's people would want to join one of these three nations.
I agree that the problem with both Belarus and the Ukraine is that they still lacked a widespread national identity. Could probably only happen as Polish puppets, or just as Russian warlord states if Russia fall to warlordism.
I agree that the problem with both Belarus and the Ukraine is that they still lacked a widespread national identity. Could probably only happen as Polish puppets, or just as Russian warlord states if Russia fall to warlordism.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Ukraine's not quite Belarus - there is Galicia, and while in the rest of Ukraine nationalism is a) not necessarily anti-Russian or anti-Soviet and b) largely middle-class, at least Ukraine has a recognisably Ukrainian middle-class.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Still most Ukrainian peasants either joined the Reds or the Anarchists, or even the Whites over the various Ukrainian nationalist movements. Ukrainian nationalism at the time was only big in Westernmost Ukraine and in Kiev. And Galizia would never be allowed to join Ukraine as long as Poland had anything to say.Ukraine's not quite Belarus - there is Galicia, and while in the rest of Ukraine nationalism is a) not necessarily anti-Russian or anti-Soviet and b) largely middle-class, at least Ukraine has a recognisably Ukrainian middle-class.
About Belarus, while it is true that only a handful of intellectuals supported it, the same can be said of Macedonia, and yet a Macedonian identity was created, you say that the Peasantry thought they spoke Russian, well weren't the vast majority of them illiterate and spoke a sort of dialect, so it isn't an insurmountable challange, also in the cities there were all sorts of minorities like Jews or Poles which might be more loyal to independent Belarus, also if Belarus adopts Latin script there would allready be a barier between Russia and Belarus.
Why?
That would require regearing everything to a tradition that wasn't widely liked. Only the Romanians and the Turks really switched of their own accord. Even the Galicians never did.
It so happens I have a family member who is an expert in the history of those languages. There is a very strong chance latin script would be adopted after WWI if Belarus became either part of Poland or a Polish client state.
Yes, agreed. Polonisation was certainly a possibility, it's a totally different question as to how popular it would be.
And if it's easy to impose it's also easy to reverse.
Too small, risks being taken over by Hungary, so it would join other states like Czechoslovakia OTL or in ATL Ukraine or something elese (Poland?)
I’m quoting from memory here, but IIRC the Belarusian language was just being formalized back then. As in grammar rules were being created based on spoken language and there was no set script. So it wouldn’t be ‘reversing to Cyrillic’ as much as ‘changing to Cyrillic’.
Fair enough, but there was a long tradition of Church Slavonic and Russian/local writing, mostly in Cyrillic. It would still be easier to adopt a Cyrillic form.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
That's pushing it. But I think Galicia could have become a state. It would have had a population of around 5M and it had an efficient and operating government and bureaucracy.
In OTL, the Entente armed Poland to fight the Reds, but they used the help to conquer Galicia instead - so there's plenty of room for a POD there.
It would be an odd state, 15% Jewish, 60% Ukrainian, and most of the rest Polish - and I suppose it's possible your C-U could be absorbed into it...
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
There's not going to be a Belarus. The only chance of it is as a constituent part of a Soviet state; the Whites would not even think about a separate entity, and Poland would Polonize it. There is no constituency whatsoever for an independent Belarus nation outside of a handful of academic-types.
I think Ukraine is a different matter - that could well have developed if it weren't the battleground for everyone else.