United States of the Americas and Oceania Version 2.0

[Writersblock]

I don't have any designs for you, but since this seems to mostly revolve around a unification of Germany and Italy, and since they're de facto sticking to a monarchical system, how about just the Holy Roman Empire, or Holy Rome or just Rome for short?

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

I think this one was supposed to be negative, but I thought it looks pretty cool.

Uhm, it does remind me of the Crown of Thorns more than a bit, and I don't find it a cool or really appropriate symbol.

I'm trying to come up with my own design as well. How many member states will there be?

The founder members shall be the states of the CP bloc: Germany, Italy, the Danube Confederation (former H-C-S), Greece, Scandinavia, and Egypt. The latter is not really an European state in the geographical sense, but I assume the founders shall use Rome's precedent, and decide that North Africa and the Middle East belong to Europe in a geopolitical sense. Quite possibly Poland as well, if the war does end up restoring its independence as a CP client (in this case, Bulgaria, Romania, Finland, and Turkey-Mesopotamia shall instead become a part of Greece, DC, Scandinavia, and Egypt respectively). Iberia and France shall join it at a later date, when the CP eventually let them out of the doghouse.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by Writersblock

I don't have any designs for you, but since this seems to mostly revolve around a unification of Germany and Italy,

The Italo-German duo is obviously the hegemon of the union, but it shall also include all the other states of the CP bloc (H-C-S, Greece, Egypt, and Scandinavia) as founding members. France and Iberia shall join it when the CP let them out of the doghouse. As it concerns the CP Europe-Russia relationship, well, things may still evolve in several different ways over the next century. As it concerns Britain and Ireland, it seems like the story calls for butterflies taking a different path than joining Europe.

and since they're de facto sticking to a monarchical system, how about just the Holy Roman Empire, or Holy Rome or just Rome for short?

The CP states are in alll likelihood going to stick to a constitutional monarchy system for the foreseeable future, no plausible good reason for things to go otherwise. France and Iberia instead may easily become and stay republics after the postwar political chaos subsides, given how much the Bonaparte and Bourbon monarchical experiments massively screwed them again and again. About Britain, the coming total defeat shall surely bring them to a revolutionary situation, but it could evolve in various different ways as it concerns the fate of the monarchy. It does not seem that even in the plausible worst-case scenario, things are going to be so bad for Russia that they would face a revolutionary situation similar to OTL, although they may certainly be some serious political backlash if they lose the war.

TTL CP Europe is certainly using a mix of Roman, Carolingian, and HRE heritage as the ideological basis of its unification.

I gave some thought on how its successful monarchical tradition would influence the institutional architecture of the *EU/EF in comparison to OTL. I have tentatively come to the conclusion that in all likelihood, the main differences, if any, may involve the European head of state figure.

The legislative, executive, and judiciary branches would not really be that much different from the parliamentary system of our modern EU. There would still be a directly-elected Legislative Lower Chamber, an Upper Chamber made up of the representatives of the various states, an Executive responsible to the Parliament, a Court of Justice, and a Bank.

A restoration of the HRE with a figurehead European Emperor is a distinct possibility with a lot of cool and tradition, but it has two difficulties: first, several CP states are already Empires, and in the European tradition there is no precedent for a dignity superior to the Imperial one, it would have to be invented out of whole cloth; second, the European hegemon is a diarchy, which makes the creation of a single super-Imperial figure a bit troublesome.

Other plausible possibilites include a rotating or collective presidency of the various head of states, which I think may have greater chances of adoption given the situation.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by DrTron

Here is a proposal. The red symbolizes war, the cross peace. It is based on Switzerland, which is multi-ethnical itself. Red appears in all the European flags.

Hmm, I am more than a bit dubious about this proposal: Switzerland is not really a successful example ITTL, and the cross design may annoy Egypt.

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Eurofed

Uhm, it does remind me of the Crown of Thorns more than a bit, and I don't find it a cool or really appropriate symbol.

My bad, I thought it was supposed to be a wreath, like they use on military badges.

[Turquoise Blue]

Originally Posted by Eurofed

Hmm, I am more than a bit dubious about this proposal: Switzerland is not really a successful example ITTL, and the cross design might alienate Egypt.

Good point. How about this? It symbolizes the EU, by harking back to the Byzantine Empire, which used to own most of the EU's current land, excluding Germany, but both Byzantium and Germany used to claim themselves as Rome, so....

[Rebecca Ashling]

Hi Eurofed, I've been following your TL and very interesting it is too. Regarding the flag I can offer two suggestions:

a) A flag with the same basic design as the OTL Moroccan flag. The pentagram motif is one version of the Seal of Solomon. Solomon is a common figure in the Abrahamic religions and was renowned for wise kingship. A sentiment I would think many of the CP monarchs would not be averse to.

b) A stylised bird of prey or eagle to represent the German, Roman eagles and the Eagle of Saladin.

I have no suggestions as to to these flags' possible coloration.

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Rebecca Ashling

a) A flag with the same basic design as the OTL Moroccan flag. The pentagram motif is one version of the Seal of Solomon. Solomon is a common figure in the Abrahamic religions and was renowned for wise kingship. A sentiment I would think many of the CP monarchs would not be averse to.

Not a bad idea, at leaste in that if the flag does end up using stars, it could use those instead of the Americas ones. Could be a good distinction.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by Rebecca Ashling

a) A flag with the same basic design as the OTL Moroccan flag. The pentagram motif is one version of the Seal of Solomon. Solomon is a common figure in the Abrahamic religions and was renowned for wise kingship. A sentiment I would think many of the CP monarchs would not be averse to.

b) A stylised bird of prey or eagle to represent the German, Roman eagles and the Eagle of Saladin.

I have no suggestions as to to these flags' possible coloration.

This seems like a rather good idea. I see two possible main ways this design can be implemented:

1) a spread eagle surmounting a pentagram
2) a spread eagle surrounded by a circle of pentagrams

Dunno which one would be better, and I have no good idea at the moment about which colors to use.

By the way, another issue would be the European capital. I was thinking of using a portion of former Switzerland.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

Not a bad idea, at leaste in that if the flag does end up using stars, it could use those instead of the Americas ones. Could be a good distinction.

As it concerns the future US flag, I'm still working under the assumption that soon after the USA crosses the 100-states landmark, they shall switch from 'one star per state' to 'one star per continent', according to the design proposed by Aranfan a couple years ago.



The change is going to happen relatively soon now, given that Hawaii, Luzon, Visayas, and Mindanao shall become states soon after the war, breaking the 100-states ceiling.

There are other 3-4 states, total, that are expected to arise in the Western Hemisphere during the early-mid 20th century, they are the Alyaska, Mato Grosso (in all likelihood without the northwestern panhandle, which shall be merged with Amazonia), and Goias territories. The latter most likely may actually be carved up into two states, southern Goias and northern Tocantinas. I'm still a bit uncertain about their optimal development schedule, but I guess their statehood in the first three decades of the 20th century may be plausible enough (TTL Brazil experiences faster growth within the USA).

I have not yet decided how long and much of resistance conquered Australia and South Africa shall oppose to assimilation in the USA, which is going to determine the schedule of their statehood: depending on this, it may range from 10 to 20 years after annexation. Australia and NZ may quite possibly become fairly open-minded about their new American destiny. South African whites are likely going to be more resentful (even if in the end resistance may be toned down by a sense of inevitability), while blacks, Indians, and Asians may welcome the Americans as liberators. I welcome suggestions about how to carve Australia and South Africa in US states.

[Rebecca Ashling]

About colours for the united CP flag. Black and white are the colours of Prussia, red and white those of Brandenberg, Austria and the Hanseatic League amongst others. Black and white flags were ascribed to the Prophet Muhammad, green used by the Fatimid dynasty. Plain red flags were, if I recall correctly, used by various Gulf Arab states. Colours for Italy don't seem so clear cut. I'm guessing a horizontal tricolour (like the flag of the Netherlands) with Eurofed's suggested device of an eagle surmounting a pentagram. The flag colours would be white, black, red and green. I'm thinking the stripes would go (from top to bottom) white, red, green with the eagle/pentagram motif in the top stripe.

[Rebecca Ashling]

The Eagle/Pentagram would be black.

Suggested names for the new alliance:

a) Mediterranea as that body of water would be its most prominent feature.

b) The Oecumene (Latin version of the Greek Oikoumene) giving the same sort of meaning as Christendom or Dar al-Islam but without, AFAIK, the specific religious connotations.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by Rebecca Ashling

About colours for the united CP flag. Black and white are the colours of Prussia, red and white those of Brandenberg, Austria and the Hanseatic League amongst others. Black and white flags were ascribed to the Prophet Muhammad, green used by the Fatimid dynasty. Plain red flags were, if I recall correctly, used by various Gulf Arab states. Colours for Italy don't seem so clear cut. I'm guessing a horizontal tricolour (like the flag of the Netherlands) with Eurofed's suggested device of an eagle surmounting a pentagram. The flag colours would be white, black, red and green. I'm thinking the stripes would go (from top to bottom) white, red, green with the eagle/pentagram motif in the top stripe.

Colors of Italy (and Hungary) are green, red, and white, no good reason for butterflies to change it. Colors of Germany are black, white, gold, and red.

Therefore I'd say that the flag may use five colors: black, white, gold, red, and green. Two of these may be used for the eagle and the pentagram, and the others to make a horizontal tricolor. I'd put the eagle/pentagram motif in the center stripe or across the three stripes for the sake of symmetry. Hmm, maybe a black eagle above a white pentagram, on a gold, red, and green tricolor. Not sure which order to place these latter three color, however.

Originally Posted by Rebecca Ashling

Suggested names for the new alliance:

a) Mediterranea as that body of water would be its most prominent feature.

b) The Oecumene (Latin version of the Greek Oikoumene) giving the same sort of meaning as Christendom or Dar al-Islam but without, AFAIK, the specific religious connotations.

Mediterranea is not really appropriate since this union shall span from Scandinavia to the Med, sorry. Oecumene seems quite nifty, although perhaps better with the 'European' prefix.

[Rebecca Ashling]

Hey Eurofed! I agree that the the eagle and pentagram device should surmount all stripes of the tricolour. Regarding the order of the colours of the tricolour proper, may I suggest, from top to bottom:

GOLD: for the rising sun and the dawn of a new age.

GREEN: for the land and prosperity.

RED: a solemn reminder that immense sacrifice was necessary for the foundation of the European Oecumene. Plus it'll make the white pentagram stand out.

If Russia gets incorporated into the Oecumene you might consider turning the tricolour into a quadricolour. A blue stripe above or below the gold one to symbolise the sky and aspiration. How many heads does the eagle have? I'd suggest two to represent the the Baltic and Mediterranean worlds. Plus double-headed eagles are cool

[metastasis_d]

I was going to try to offer up some flag samples, but they were turning out really lousy. Got some questions and suggestions.

Maybe the flag could include blue? All the Scandanavian flags besides Denmark I believe use it, not that the butterflies haven't changed it TTL. On the other hand, I also figure adding another color might crowd it up a bit. And the historic Kalmar Union's colors are covered with red and gold anyhow. So probably scratch that.

I was playing with the order of gold green and red for aesthetics, and I think Lithuania nailed it with that order. However, that doesn't include any symbols, which might change what looks best.

Originally Posted by Eurofed

Other plausible possibilites include a rotating or collective presidency of the various head of states, which I think may have greater chances of adoption given the situation.

I'm sensing a system somewhat akin to Malaysia's rotating kingdom heads for the Federal collective government might work. I've always been intrigued by the way they've adapted a modern system to their continuing monarchies, but I don't know enough about whether it is with any success to determine if it is anything like your Europe or even a good idea.

And finally, do you know how much of Indonesia the US will control? And have you decided the fate of Madagascar?

[Eurofed]

As it concerns the colors of the flag, I heartily agree with both of you that a gold-green-red top-bottom tricolor design similar to the Lithuanian one would be quite nifty and appropriate.

Aesthetically, I would tenatively deem that since the white pentagram would end up in the bottom red band, and the black eagle in the middle green and top gold bands, they ought to stand out good enough, even if I need to see it to make a definitive judgement.

I have to remark that I'm personally biased against the double-headed eagle, I find it more than a bit freakish and I rather prefer the single-headed eagle of Rome, America, Germany, and the early HRE. Nonetheless, I acknowledge that in this particular case, the symbology to justify the double head may be compelling (Northern Europe and Southern Europe; Baltic and Mediterranean; Germany and Italy) and there is some precedent for its use in the late HRE and Byzantium, so I'm willing to ignore my prejudices this time.

I have given some thought myself whether to add a fourth blue band. I feel no particular attachment in general to the tricolor design, as far as I'm concerned there is no problem to use flags with four or five color bands if appropriate.

I would deem that most likely, there is no compelling drive for the European Ecumene (EE) to add blue to the flag until and unless Russia (or rather less likely, France) joins the union. Most OTL Nordic flags use it, but ITTL in all likelihood Scandinavia went back to use the historical red-and-gold flag of the Kalmar union. The Dutch flag does use it, but the EE flag already uses three of the four Dutch colors (more or less; gold instead of orange) so it is not a big deal. Blue is also one of the three Slav colors, but the other two are used already, the Slavs are less influential within Europe ITTL than in OTL (the Czechs, Slovenians, and Istrian-Dalmatian Croats have been Germanized or Italianized). So I would rule that there is an insufficient support base within the EE at its foundation to adopt blue in the flag.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

I'm sensing a system somewhat akin to Malaysia's rotating kingdom heads for the Federal collective government might work. I've always been intrigued by the way they've adapted a modern system to their continuing monarchies, but I don't know enough about whether it is with any success to determine if it is anything like your Europe or even a good idea.

I shall look up the Malaysian system in the wiki to check its functioning. However we have to remember that even if TTL CP constitutional monarchy model leaves the monarch with somewhat more reserve powers and influence than in the Westminster system, the vast majority of power is still in the hands of the democratically-elected Parliament and the executive elected by it. The same model is going to be replicated in the EE constitution, so the rotating Ecumene monarchical presidency shall be a prestigious figurehead much more than anything else. All the real power is going to be in the hands of the EE Parliament, Cabinet, and the representatives of the national executives.

By the way, as it concerns the EE colors, I'm also coming to the conclusion that HRE light grey may be a more appropriate map color for it than EU blue: an outline in the early-mid 20th century during the early stages of integration, full color in the mid-late 20th century when they progress to the federal level.

And finally, do you know how much of Indonesia the US will control? And have you decided the fate of Madagascar?

Too early to tell on both questions.

[Libertad]

May I ask what will happen to a US Yakutia in TTL?? Or will it still a possibility?

[metastasis_d]

Definitely digging the new US flag design. A "superior" star for each continent seems quite fitting once the number of states has hit that high of a point.

Originally Posted by Eurofed

I have not yet decided how long and much of resistance conquered Australia and South Africa shall oppose to assimilation in the USA, which is going to determine the schedule of their statehood: depending on this, it may range from 10 to 20 years after annexation. Australia and NZ may quite possibly become fairly open-minded about their new American destiny. South African whites are likely going to be more resentful (even if in the end resistance may be toned down by a sense of inevitability), while blacks, Indians, and Asians may welcome the Americans as liberators. I welcome suggestions about how to carve Australia and South Africa in US states.

I suppose it depends on how used to being moved around the Loyalists have become in the path of the expanding Americas, as well as the "confederados" who left after the FGW for Brazil and Patagonia, and will thusly have to move again (or grin and bear it this time)

[Swede]

Originally Posted by Eurofed

The legislative, executive, and judiciary branches would not really be that much different from the parliamentary system of our modern EU. There would still be a directly-elected Legislative Lower Chamber, an Upper Chamber made up of the representatives of the various states, an Executive responsible to the Parliament, a Court of Justice, and a Bank.

Sounds distinctly better than OTL's setup. As a (fellow) €-federalist, I like it!

Originally Posted by Eurofed

As it concerns the future US flag, I'm still working under the assumption that soon after the USA crosses the 100-states landmark, they shall switch from 'one star per state' to 'one star per continent', according to the design proposed by Aranfan a couple years ago.

Sounds reasonable. but what about huge flags? like this one? I could see those still having one star per state. Why? Just because!