United States of the Americas and Oceania Version 2.0

[Writersblock]

Hi! Bump, bumpity, bump bump bump!
I'm new, and congratulations! You just landed yourself a hugeoid fan who also happens to be a short-story writer-hobbyist!

You have created a world that's just begging to be filled with culture and people and music and art and life!

I already have loads of ideas. But first, I have a couple pertinent questions.

First: At what date was the Declaration of Independence signed? I was thinking it might have happened a little later because of the need to gather 2 extra people. Random possibility: August 17th? Throw me a bone.

Second: What's going on with Antarctica? It's not completely devoid of resources: It's got a nice amount of fish. You probably haven't thought too much about it, but I'm curious. Is it going to de facto become a part of the United States? I mean, Australia, South Africa, and South America are all within spitting distance to it. I was just wondering because it would be so cool if there were seven stars on the U.S.A. flag representing all seven continents. That would be appealing to the population like nothing else.

Also, some suggestions:

A possible solution of the capital problem could be a South African-ish arrangement, where you have three seperate capitals. One for the Executive, one for the Legislature, and one for the Judicial.

For reference, in South Africa, Pretoria is the Executive branch, Cape Town is the Legislative Branch, and Bloemfontein is the Judicial Branch.

And concerning Britain - that is, if you want to make it a state - I'd say that an ultranationalist, anti-American fascist regime should do nicely. It wouldn't even be that hard to fan the flames of resentment into fanaticism. I mean, after all, the United states basically annexes the entire British Empire, sans India. Something like, "They stole our land from us!", would absolutely zing with delicious irony.

Segue into eventual war, humiliation, and ignominous annexation. Three states, though. England, Scotland and Wales.

And Eurofed, I hope to bring some inspiration into you with my stories. Because I'm dying for the next update!

[JL_Krag-Jorgensen]

I am also a newcomer (Though I have been an observer for quite some time) ane I must state that this timeline was the first one I read on this site, and I am also hitting myself over the head for a new update.

Questions:

1. The butterflies seem to have taken near-absolute effect by now, so I'm curious as to what butterflies could have affected The East Asia countries. It seems that they have stayed relatively on course. Are there any significant differences?

2. WILL the USA take Antarctica? It would seem sensible from the perspective of a country who has effectively gone global, but the fact that at this time is is almost near impractical for the US to simply swim over and go to the world "this snow land is ours, get the f*** away."

And a side note, I'm largely assuming that the great TR is kicked out from this universe by the almighty butterflies, but if not, having him lead the US through the second great war would be kicka$$

[Writersblock]

Possible name for fascist party: Britannic Sword Party? Anybody think that's good?

Query: What are the chances that Anglophobia causes a one-upmanship contest in the arts and architecture? Who can build the tallest building? The best bust of their national animal? The best piece of patriotic music? Ad nauseum? I need landmarks other than Lady Liberty and D.C. An operahouse in Cascadia? An Arc de Liberté in Quebec? Perhaps a giant statue of Simon Bolivar somewhere in the Gran Colombian area? Something.

Also: Hamburgers exist. Period. Zero. End of Story. I was just thinking of a good storyline when I realized, to my horror, that the existence of God's Greatest Blessing was in jeopardy. Butterflies will die by my hand if they even think of trying to flap this away. I'm fine with name changes. Call them Meatbuns, Yankwiches, or whatever else the heck you want. Bottom line: America's greatest gift to the world will not be consigned to oblivion.

You can kill off philly cheese steaks, though. I'm not that fond of 'em.

UPDATE. Please?

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by Writersblock

Hi! Bump, bumpity, bump bump bump!
I'm new, and congratulations! You just landed yourself a hugeoid fan who also happens to be a short-story writer-hobbyist!

You have created a world that's just begging to be filled with culture and people and music and art and life!

I already have loads of ideas. But first, I have a couple pertinent questions.

I'm glad that my humble efforts are stoking your creative urge. Any contribution to flesh this world beyond the detail level that I'm able and willing to provide is more than welcome (as long as I keep ultimate creative control, of course).

First: At what date was the Declaration of Independence signed? I was thinking it might have happened a little later because of the need to gather 2 extra people. Random possibility: August 17th? Throw me a bone.

*Scratches head* Honestly, this is a detail I never bothered to define. At first glance, I suppose August 17th could work, though.

Second: What's going on with Antarctica? It's not completely devoid of resources: It's got a nice amount of fish. You probably haven't thought too much about it, but I'm curious.

Yeah, especially because it is not going to be suited for significant permanent settlement (besides a few research bases) in the foreseeable future, so it falls beneath my radar.

As an aside, being yours truly a space colonization buff, you may bet that the superpowers shall pick a chronic case of the space-race bug and there shall be substantial coverage of it.

Is it going to de facto become a part of the United States? I mean, Australia, South Africa, and South America are all within spitting distance to it.

In all likelihood, but only after all those lands are under the Stars and Stripes, and it becomes an issue of national security. You may expect the USA to be kinda lukewarm about it, though. They already have abundant swathes of frozen land in the Big White North.

I was just wondering because it would be so cool if there were seven stars on the U.S.A. flag representing all seven continents. That would be appealing to the population like nothing else.

Hum, given that Antartica is going to stay effectively uninhabited, I'm doubtful whether it would be appropriate to mark it as an major component of the USA this way.

But this is far in the future at this point. It is an issue more suitable to discuss when we are past the next great war and its consequences if not well into the 20th century.

A possible solution of the capital problem could be a South African-ish arrangement, where you have three seperate capitals. One for the Executive, one for the Legislature, and one for the Judicial.

For reference, in South Africa, Pretoria is the Executive branch, Cape Town is the Legislative Branch, and Bloemfontein is the Judicial Branch.

As a rule, I'm quite skeptical about the value of multiple-capital arrangements, and my opinion is going to be mirrored in the attitudes of TTL US citizens.

So far, I'm planning for the US capital to be moved lock, stock, and barrel to Central America, as per previous discussion of the subject, fairly soon after the transoceanic channel is built.

And concerning Britain - that is, if you want to make it a state - I'd say that an ultranationalist, anti-American fascist regime should do nicely. It wouldn't even be that hard to fan the flames of resentment into fanaticism. I mean, after all, the United states basically annexes the entire British Empire, sans India. Something like, "They stole our land from us!", would absolutely zing with delicious irony.

Segue into eventual war, humiliation, and ignominous annexation. Three states, though. England, Scotland and Wales.

Yup. It would probably take something like this to make the British so stupid as to pick a third major fight with the US giant. As you may notice, France is already going down that road at this point.

This would require that another superpower (Russia ? CP Europe ? both ?) becomes the main opponent of the USA in the third conflict. After the next great war and the loss of its empire, Britain (and France) shall fall too low to be credible in that role. It's doable, however.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by JL_Krag-Jorgensen

1. The butterflies seem to have taken near-absolute effect by now, so I'm curious as to what butterflies could have affected The East Asia countries. It seems that they have stayed relatively on course. Are there any significant differences?

Japan has started its modernization a bit earlier, but butterflies have followed a parallel evolution course to OTL and are likely going to do so in the near future (until say the equivalent for eve of the Russo-Japanese War), pretty much because Western colonization was the only really plausible alternative. I assumed that the Meji parallel was more likely, and it yielded more interesting geopolitical effects, than the latter alternative.

China is being hit by Western colonial penetration harder than OTL, and this is likely going to cause some significant conseguence down the road, be it a last-ditch successful modernization, or an even harder fall into revolutionary chaos than OTL, of Imperial China. I guessed that it was not yet the moment for this to manifest, however.

As it concerns Korea, I don't think its chances for independent national existence look any good in the foreseeable future.

2. WILL the USA take Antarctica? It would seem sensible from the perspective of a country who has effectively gone global, but the fact that at this time is is almost near impractical for the US to simply swim over and go to the world "this snow land is ours, get the f*** away."

Yeah. If they do something about it, it shall be somewhat down the road and as a afterthought.

And a side note, I'm largely assuming that the great TR is kicked out from this universe by the almighty butterflies, but if not, having him lead the US through the second great war would be kicka$$

Butterflies have gotten so massive that the POTUS stopped being recognizable faces after Polk, but this does not mean we cannot have some analogues here and there. Different names and faces, similar policies and/or personality. E.g. we already had a broad Lincoln analogue during the ACW.

It is quite possible that a guy similar to TR rises to the Presidency in the eve of the SGW. The buildup to the SGW might create the right conditions for it, after all.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by Writersblock

Possible name for fascist party: Britannic Sword Party? Anybody think that's good?

I'm rather creatively challenged when it comes to names.

Query: What are the chances that Anglophobia causes a one-upmanship contest in the arts and architecture? Who can build the tallest building? The best bust of their national animal? The best piece of patriotic music? Ad nauseum? I need landmarks other than Lady Liberty and D.C. An operahouse in Cascadia? An Arc de Liberté in Quebec? Perhaps a giant statue of Simon Bolivar somewhere in the Gran Colombian area? Something.

Absolutely yes. But it's not just competitive Anglophobia, although it may play a role. The greater wealth and much greater size and success of their mega-nation are really going to give TTL Americans a strong taste for this kind of things, including mega-engineering, which they shall spread to European powers. I absolutely welcome any suitable idea in this regard.

I seem to remember we already mentioned TTL Mt. Rushmore is going to host more (and somewhat different, of course) national luminaries. I was barely (and much reluctantly) talked out of making twin transoceanic canals (although I'm still on the lookout for any barely decent butterfly justification for them), and I already made the USA go crazy with infrastructure development. Please throw ideas about this kid of developments my direction, or make them part of your own vignettes, as you may prefer.

By the way, Lady Liberty shall exist ITTL in an even more impressive form, although it shall of course be a Italo-German(-Russian) gift, and it shall have a different, more martial appearance (like a shieldmaiden). It may or may not be a statue complex of a few figures instead of a single one. This because the gift is going to celebrate alliance in the Great War.

Also: Hamburgers exist. Period. Zero. End of Story. I was just thinking of a good storyline when I realized, to my horror, that the existence of God's Greatest Blessing was in jeopardy. Butterflies will die by my hand if they even think of trying to flap this away. I'm fine with name changes. Call them Meatbuns, Yankwiches, or whatever else the heck you want. Bottom line: America's greatest gift to the world will not be consigned to oblivion.

Although I personally do not fancy them at all, I have no real objection to give butterfly protection to Hamburgers.

The horror that is American football, however, is going to be butterflied away with maximum prejudice. You want a form of football to be a main US sport ITTL, you get soccer, end of story. Baseball, basket, and hockey may get my blessing, however. I'm uncertain about the fate of rugby.

This is an area where I may be willing to deploy butterfly protection for the sake of simplicity and recognizability.

By the way, I hereby declare that Anglophobia and multiculturalism led this USA to wholeheartedly adopt the metric system very early on.

[Writersblock]

Ohmygoodness. Hamburgers live!

Though, an alternate name for hamburgers is an idea that's growing on me. Yankwiches, anyone?

Also: August 17th it is, I guess. Nothing incredibly historical was happening on that day, except for the ongoing ARW. I just need a specific date for my story.

I'm gonna go with Britannic Sword Party, for now, if that's alright.

And can I get an approximate time when Ireland gets annexed? I'm operating on the assumption, for now, that Ireland gets annexed by 1990

Here's an idea for a story. There's more to come; this is just the one that I've developed the most:

There is a family of people who align with the British, and are loyal to the Crown. They are the Austen family(Woo! Jane Austen!). Their family was among the people who left Britain for the New World, once upon a time. And, in 1781, when the rebel colonies established their independence, they emigrated, disgusted by the percieved disloyalty to the Sovereign King. Since then...

They have had to move elsewhere in the British Empire. Every. Single. Time. That the U.S.A. annexed a part of her colonies.

It's 1992. At last, the Austen family has returned to the Motherland, after centuries of near-continuous fleeing from the ever-growing reach of the so-called 'Western Menace'. And William Austen, sixteen years old and heir to the head of the Austen clan, has run away from home. Why? After an automobile accident, he came out of the ordeal with no left arm. In the ultranationalist, anti-American, anti-Catholic, anti-coloured, anti-liberal, anti-homosexual, anti-disabled environment of the Britain of 1992, William suffered for his disability. Everyone in his family, with exception of his mother, gave him the cold shoulder, and it began to look like his younger brother would inherit the Austen legacy.

For most of his life, William was cheerfully prejudiced against the U.S.A., and before the accident, he had fully intended to become a member of the Britannic Sword Party when he came of-age. Disillusioned, he doesn't know what to believe anymore.

He flees to Irish America. And proceeds to fall in love with one Amalie Gallagher.

Irish and American. At the same time. It'd be hard to come up with a better way to screw with his prejudices.

Good? Yes? No? Let me know.

[JL_Krag-Jorgensen]

Another big note: how is the weapons technology in this world coming along? It seems that with the massive size of the US at this stage, the US doesn't appear to have a need for great leaps in technology. Heck, man-waving the enemy trenches might acually be doable by the US for a bit longer (until the almighty MGs come into existence). I wouldn't be surprised.

The fact that the US now spans halfway around the world might lead to naval expansion almost half a century ahead on schedule. After all, how is this US going to get from the Phillippines to the mainland while holding off the still rather powerful Royal Navy?

[Eurofed]

@ Writersblock: gonna think about your idea a bit further.

Originally Posted by JL_Krag-Jorgensen

Another big note: how is the weapons technology in this world coming along? It seems that with the massive size of the US at this stage, the US doesn't appear to have a need for great leaps in technology. Heck, man-waving the enemy trenches might acually be doable by the US for a bit longer (until the almighty MGs come into existence). I wouldn't be surprised.

Please be mindful that TTL is experiencing a two-decades acceleration in technological progress in comparison to OTL. I see no special good reason why it should be any different as far as weapons technology is concerned.

Even if the USA enjoys a massive manpower pool, it still remains a liberal democracy which is not going to be more willing to waste its own citizen-soldiers' lives needlessly than OTL. WWI-like carnage, with a somewhat absolute higher body cout due to TTL bigger powers, quite likely, but proportionally even more bloodier and wasteful of lives than our WWI, no.

The fact that the US now spans halfway around the world might lead to naval expansion almost half a century ahead on schedule. After all, how is this US going to get from the Phillippines to the mainland while holding off the still rather powerful Royal Navy?

This is already a reality, and as a matter of fact, TTL US Navy has been rather more powerful than its OTL counterpart, according to the overall power level of the nation at every step, thoroughout its history (one main reason why the USA has won decisive victories in all its wars with European powers so far). The prevailing influence of Federalist ideas about a strong military, the positive feedback effect of repeated victorious wars, and hostile relationships with naval powers saw to that.

Even before the Great War, lingering rivalry with Britain and France made it so that the USN was given the task of ensuring strong protection of US coasts and Western Hemisphere intercontinental communication lines, in other words naval parity to narrow superiority in its home waters, and the Navy was sized accordingly. After the war, the strategic mission has been upgraded to decisive supremacy in its home waters, and naval parity with any other power (read: the Royal Navy) on a global scale. Ownership of the Philippines is turning the USA to think the Pacific as part of its "home waters" and strategic turf alongside the Western Hemisphere.

[Writersblock]

Question Mark:

Will there be a 'freedom of the seas' policy on the part of the U.S.A. ITTL?

[JL_Krag-Jorgensen]

Well, just because there are advance in some areas won't gaurantee advances in the rest (then again, I'm just playing devil's advocate with myself, so never mind).

Speaking of technology, I have some other questions regarding such. Is the advance path the same as OTL? Or are there some differences? (e.g. Analog computers become the primary source, Airships over airplanes, etc.) I expect TTL USA to go through great strides at the rate it is developing its technologies.

Finally, there's the big question of politics. I'm assuming (From what I have read) that the Federalists are still up against the Democrats. Will the two-party system stay forever? Or will one or both parties drop out in favor of another, or will we even have a third party enter the political stage?

(If I have time and you wish, I can try to find a way to get an electoral map up for whatever election you wanna show. It would be a lot of fun to see how many seats Congress is going to have to fill up for.)

[Writersblock]

I should ask something relevant to the update in the (hopefully) near future. Since technology develops twenty years ahead of schedule, are the social issues of OTL's Gilded Age going to be as prevelent? I saw a little earlier that the assembly line was invented. Will the social problems even be the same?

[Writersblock]

Herro! I've decided to scrap the love story angle entirely, too cliche. No matter how hard I tried it just didn't seem to do your universe any justice.

Blegh. What a drag.

Whatever. I'll keep pieces of the William Austen idea, though. I'm thinking that it'll just focus on surviving as a Brit in the USA.

I'm going to try my hand at a novella, instead of a short story.

In the meanwhile, here's a snippet so that you know I'm not just being an internet jerk and leading you all on:

Prologue:

"... USA!... USA!... USA!..."

"Vie, Liberte, et la Poursuite de Bonheur!"

"El Presidente de los Estados Unidos va a hablar sobre los nuevos fue-"

"ABC Australia reporting live from Liberty City-"

The most celebrated holiday in the world, after Christmas.

August Seventeenth. Independence Day.

The date marking the birth of a gargantuan nation which, by the year 2000, grew to cover approximately two fifths of all the land on Earth.

William Austen, British-American, sat in a pub in Los Angeles(bar, he mentally corrected himself), staring blankly at the glass of Nuevo Conejo in his hands.

Listening to the cheers around him as the rocket show in Liberty City began on television.

Thinking about what he had lost in the last ten years.

Sensing the patriotic love surrounding him, and feeling a piece inside of him die because he couldn't bring himself to feel that way about England anymore.

Fearing, all the same, what shall become of the land of his birth.

Tears rolling. Shoulders shaking.

Knowing that he was foolish. Disgustingly foolish. And that nothing but an intervention from God was going to stop the United States of America from swiftly and painfully crushing all that he once held dear.

He knew that it was just. He knew that it was right. William Austen would make no attempt to stop the inevitable.

That didn't mean that he wouldn't mourn.

A sob that he held inside for ten years... found its freedom.
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Eurofed, will you have a problem with me posting bits of my story on your thread? Or do you prefer postings on a separate thread?

Also, bump. I'm going to keep churning out creative materials until you find that lazy muse of yours and drag her back from vacationing in the Bahamas. I WANT MOAR!

[Turquoise Blue]

What a brilliant narrative!

[Writersblock]

Wow, thanks for the compliment! But its just a first draft. It'll get more polished later on as I keep on writing.

You'll notice that I went ahead and used the name 'Liberty City' for the new Central American capitol. Is that okay? Or should I go back and change it?

Also: Greenland is definitely in the western hemisphere. I don't see why it shouldn't be counted as such by all parties involved. Is it still Denmark's colony? Maybe it should change hands in TTL's Gilded Age...

[JL_Krag-Jorgensen]

That story is quite the original. It would be very interesting to see how it develops in connection to this tl.

And Denmark is going to need to undergo some form of financial bankruptcy before it will be willing to sell Greenland. Perhaps, some form of stock crash un Denmark to convince it to sell greenland away?

Another question I forgot to ask: is "Oceania" going to include only the Phillipines and ANZ? Or will other areas be included in this massive intercontinental country?

[Writersblock]

Say... What does that grand old rag look like these days anyhow? I was browsing the flag thread when I had sudden surge of curiosity concerning what the USAO's flag would look like in 1875.

How long does the "one star per state" thing prevail before they decide that they have too many states to do that, and they switch to "one star per continent"?

[JL_Krag-Jorgensen]

Originally Posted by Writersblock

Say... What does that grand old rag look like these days anyhow? I was browsing the flag thread when I had sudden surge of curiosity concerning what the USAO's flag would look like in 1875.

How long does the "one star per state" thing prevail before they decide that they have too many states to do that, and they switch to "one star per continent"?

From the original thread, there was a consensus that the flag would be the same as OTL, except that in the stars section there would be a series of inscribed stars positioned so that they were at the edges of a geometric shape. The number of stars was dependent on the number of continents the US existed on. Before the US finds there to be too many stars on the flag, however, the flag will follow development the same way as OTL did (every new states, a new star is put on the flag).

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by Writersblock

Will there be a 'freedom of the seas' policy on the part of the U.S.A. ITTL?

Given the huge geopolitical divergencies from OTL, I am honestly uncertain of how the issue would be framed by this USA.

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by JL_Krag-Jorgensen

Well, just because there are advance in some areas won't gaurantee advances in the rest (then again, I'm just playing devil's advocate with myself, so never mind).

The sociological force (greater, earlier, and more widespread global industrialization and success of liberalism) that is causing technological advancement to be accelerated ITTL is acting (or better has no good reason to not act) across the board.

Speaking of technology, I have some other questions regarding such. Is the advance path the same as OTL? Or are there some differences? (e.g. Analog computers become the primary source, Airships over airplanes, etc.) I expect TTL USA to go through great strides at the rate it is developing its technologies.

So far, it is already established that:

-electical engines shall displace internal combustion ones as the main power system for cars

-railways shall always remain the main medium- and long-distance travel system in combination with airplanes (and yes, this means lots of mag-lev and more research in superconductivity after a while)

-development of the railway-telegraph-telephone triad system across the USA (and a to a latter degree, Europe and Russia) is more extensive than OTL

-mega-engineering shall enjoy more favor

-space exploration and colonization shall keep a momentum akin to the Apollo Program thoroughout history

-there shall be no sociocultural taboo about, and hence there shall be more advances in, eugenetic genetic engineering (no Nazism)

-greater global industrialization may cause more and earlier environmental problems (only dampened by the divergencies in travel systems) which in turn shall cause more interest in "green" and nuclear technologies

As it concerns the latter point, I'll go and admit that the airships getting more success than OTL in comparison to airplanes is a possibility that had not got my attention so far. Theoretically it might have some marginal usefulness to keep down environmental trouble, too, but at first glance I'm uncertain about its feasibility and usefulness. About analog computing, I honestly know too little about the issue to make a meaningful reasoned and informed stance.

Feel free to make suggestions to me about these and other potential divergent paths in technological development

Finally, there's the big question of politics. I'm assuming (From what I have read) that the Federalists are still up against the Democrats. Will the two-party system stay forever? Or will one or both parties drop out in favor of another, or will we even have a third party enter the political stage?

Yep, the First US Party System had endured fine so far ITTL, for various reasons. It is my expectation that some equivalent of the Populist/Socialist/Progressives shall inevitably arise during the Gilded Age due to its pressing social issues.

It is also already established that TTL Progressive Age and its reforms shall be somewhat more extensive and successful than OTL, leading the USA to be somewhat more left-wing than OTL (which shall also be a consequence of the divergencies in the Reconstruction Age). I.e. there shall be more Progressive landmark legislative developments and successful constitutional amendments than OTL.

I am still honestly uncertain on whether this shall led to permanent major changes in the US Party system.

(If I have time and you wish, I can try to find a way to get an electoral map up for whatever election you wanna show. It would be a lot of fun to see how many seats Congress is going to have to fill up for.)

Heh. Dunno how feasible it would be, but I agree it might be be cool, so feel free to try. We have the state electoral map, after all.

Note: TTL Constitution includes a clausle that has been/shall be interpreted by the SCOTUS as to ban gerrymandering.