Challenge: Martial Arts in the West

Arch-Angel

How can the countries of the west (not necessarily in the same governmental order) develop martial arts similar to the Eastern Martial Traditions, most notably the Samurai, while not adopting Eastern religions? Im aware of western martial arts (Brazilian) but I am talking about the structure, order, and cultural importance.
 

carlton_bach

Develop a stronger stand of Christian 'warrior mysticism'. It will be hard, but not impossible. Europewan warriors were very capable and well trained and their martial arts were very sophisticated (if you don't believe it, read up on Le Boucicault or the Flos Duellatorum), but they lacked a spiritual strand. All surviving martial arts books take a utilitarian bent either pointing to usefulness in battle or physical fitness. If you can popularise a 'my sword is my cross' approach you could have something more like bushido...
 

carlton_bach

Arch-Angel said:
Would creating a new saint work you think?
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Not really. There are already plenty of warrior-saints (starting with Archangel Michael, St George and St Martin, not paltry ones either). What you need is a new cult, not a new Saint. (though I guess another one can't hurt).
 

Midgard

How about a slightly different Mongol conquest? In Russia they had a concept of Vityaz, something like a warrior-monk (although also generally meaning "a knight" - not necessarily a member of "boyar" class, but more a medium-heavy armored lancer), and up until the battle at Kulikovo Field there were numerous instances of Russian monks taking up arms and fighting the invaders - Mongols included. Say, the Russians are bit more successful in repelling the Mongols around Dmitry Donskoi's time (1380s or so, if I remember correctly), however, the clergy ends up with much more power than in OTL, keeping these "Vityazi" as the special Orthodox warrior-monk order.

Therefore, the warrior-monks survive, and thrive due to ever-present menace of the Khanates. The Poles, Hungarians, and such adopt such practices since they are obviously successful, and form the Catholic version, that ends up subjugated to the Pope. How about this?
 

Tyr

There are western martial arts. They largely died out as we became more technilogicly advanced and deemed them unnessesary though.
Off my head ones still alive to a extent I can remember-
Boxing
Some French form of boxing which involves kicking too. Can't remember the name of it.
British longbow usage
Various forms of western staff fighting
Fencing
And probally more.
 

david3565

Leej is correct. Here are the links for the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts and the Journal of Western Martial Art.

Even in to the 17th century, hundreds of fighting schools could be found throughout Europe and there are surviving manuals (On the ARMA website, you'll find scanned exceprts) for empty-hand and weapon techniques, which were well developed, to the point of even having a handful of "pressure points." As to which weapons they had styles for: for every type in use. They didn't invent weapons and then not develop ways to use them most effectively. You would actually be surprised how many varied uses you could get out of a long sword.
 

Count Dearborn

The French martial art is called Savat(spelling?). It was influenced by oriental martial arts that French sailors came in contact with, and its supposed to be the first codified martial art. What about the fighting styles of the Amerindians. The fighting style that Mark Decascos used in The Brotherhood of the Wolf was supposedly influenced by Iroquois wrestling, and he also used a similar style in an episode of Crow: Stairway to Heaven. Don't forget the styles from Africa.
 

Otis Tarda

Aren't knights or "knightood" something that can be considered "martial art"? It has its ways to use certain weapon, ideology, orders and so on. Also, there was strong spiritual accent, which unfortunately seems to be lost.
 

david3565

Arch-Angel said:
Im aware Leej but I want a way to have a culture similar to Bushido still existing in the west.
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Firearms changed the martial culture most significantly in Europe. You might try stemming the development of guns, but then you really don't have "modern times" with out those. Rather, you could have a military order like the Templars weather the Medieval upheaval and survive the Reformation to become the military arm of the Vatican, perhaps replacing the Swiss Guard and becoming more of a peacekeeping force. The use of martial training in the instilling of discipline could be mated to Christian philosophy, taking on a role not unlike the ritualized Eastern styles after they fell in to disuse on the battlefield.
 

Flocculencio

Donor
Could we not consider sharpshooting a martial art? After all, marksmen and snipers are highly skilled, highly trained individuals.
 

Otis Tarda

But there is no "path of the sniper" - at least in popular culture. Hmm... THAT would be interesting: patience, perfection, control of the body (after all, it is *something* to lay down in the cover for hours and then quick escape).
 

Forum Lurker

Otis Tarda said:
But there is no "path of the sniper" - at least in popular culture. Hmm... THAT would be interesting: patience, perfection, control of the body (after all, it is *something* to lay down in the cover for hours and then quick escape).
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I rather think there is. Witness "Enemy at the Gates", or any online FPS.
 

Strategos' Risk

With more savate, the French don't seem as cowardly?

What other Western styles are there? I like the concept of Krav Maga. The only besides Greco-Roman wrestling and capoeira I can think of is Green Beret and other special forces' training.
 
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