WI: NASA Followed a "Natural" progression?

The moon race hastened development in space a drew, for a short time, massive public support and awe. However, it also helped to ensure that the public stopped caring once the moon was conquered, and before infrastructure was established to keep the US in a long term commitment. In the aftermath, the heavy booster Saturn program was abandoned, as was manned travel beyond Low-Earth-Orbit, as well as grander plans like space stations and moon bases and all that.

But what if NASA, rather than doing that, followed a more "natural" route with a gradual build up to the moon and beyond? That evolution being something like putting a man into space, testing man in space, satellites and probes, a manned space station for long term duration and experimentation and likely some form of reusable space craft to go to the station (the space station would be an anchor keeping interest in space in a way), a mission around the moon, and a moon landing.
 
How long a progression are you thinking about? A big part of why the moon landing took place in 1969, was because of Kennedy's 'We choose to go to the Moon in this decade, and do the other things' speech. Without that declaration NASA might have taken more time, but how much longer is a question.
 
I think a Moon landing would be pushed sometime into the 70's if things moved out more gradually. A Space station would probably take up the bulk of activities in the latter 1960's, in my opinion, but would probably aid in getting man to the moon faster and easier depending on how advanced it is and if it is built, or later stations are built after initial ones, as a waypoint between Earth and the Moon (Truth is Life has brought up the smaller Apollo A).

However, depending on how leisurely things are allowed to go (meaning, basically, if the Soviets don't put a man into space), I believe the idea at first was to have a man into space by the mid 1960's, which would push off a moon landing even later. But, from how much I've researched this, I get the impression that the slower and more gradually the space program were to move, the more infrastructure it could build up to perpetuate itself, so while perhaps not grand in the short run, better in the long run.
 
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First, if NASA's history after 1972 is any indicator, they really can't get much done without a ten-year goal. After Apollo, they developed Shuttle, which, in its 30 years of existence, has given us no significant advantage in the plan for a Return to the Moon and Manned Mission to Mars. In addition, it makes no sense whatsoever to build space stations in High Orbit, Lagrange Points, or Lunar Orbit. Really, what do you gain by putting it higher up? You still need to use fuel from earth to get to the Moon, so why bother stopping halfway there?

That said, there were plans in the late 1950s for a USAF Orbital Space Station as the "natural successor" of Project Mercury. It would most likely have been launched on a Titan ICBM, like the Manned Orbiting Laboratory, and supplied by Gemini-like spacecraft. Saturn V would never have been developed because there would be no incentive.

But the Russians, with their Heavy-Lift Proton Rockets, would have assembled a space station sooner. They simply had better rocket tech. Good luck assembling a station with Atlas and early Titan. That was actually one of the motives for "Moon by 1970." It would give the Americans plenty of time to develop a Heavy Lift rocket, and the hardware necessary, whereas "We'll build a space station" leaves them vulnerable to further Russian development.
 
We'd have to make it so it wasn't a space race. So either no cold war, or no credible Soviet space program. Either way, we're talking thing settling out of world war 2 a little differently. Maybe the Americans get a hold of more German rocket scientists, maybe the Soviets execute theirs. Either way, the main change has to be in the Soviets. If they don't win the first few hurdles of the space race, or don't even try, then the Americans won't have to get to the moon first.

And a late seventies, early eighties manned moon landing would probably lead to a sustained presence. We'd likely see a reusable orbital shuttle (80's technology, so maybe a bit better than our shuttle), a permanently manned space station (an American Mir equivalent), and a lunar shuttle that goes back and forth between earth and the moon (we don't have one of these, but it would dock with the space station, and drop/retrieve landers from the moon without landing).
 
First, if NASA's history after 1972 is any indicator, they really can't get much done without a ten-year goal.

It can be argued (and I would be right there on the firing line) that that is largely a result of the Apollo/Saturn program. Due to that program and its inevitable "crash" nature, NASA found itself oriented towards that sort of thing, and due to the mythology of it (especially amongst the public), that sort of thing is expected of it. Not to mention the political pressures from Congresses which vary between fairly enthusiastic about the whole thing to being deep in the throes of budget-cutting (the latter of which simply cannot abide relatively cheap but long-term programs due to the high total cost multiplied over that long timespan). Right now its in a weird hybrid where certain powerful members are the former (since their districts benefit), but the Congress as a whole is tending towards the latter. So NASA has chronic not-cool-enough/too-damn-expensive syndrome, leading it to throw away everything it has done for nothing. Someone has pointed out that the average 15-year budget of NASA has actually remained fairly constant (in real dollars, of course) since its foundation, so it seems clear the biggest problem is external to the agency, since NASA cannot itself decide what it is going to do; it has to work within the boundaries set by Congress and the President. If (as happened after 1969) Congress decides that it is not going to fund a mission to Mars, then NASA is not going to be developing the tech necessary to go to Mars, simple as that, even if they technically have the cash to do so.

A history that was less...well, short-sighted, to put it bluntly, would probably serve NASA well insofar that Congress would not expect NASA to get anything done particularly quickly, and hopefully would therefore be slightly more immune to fantastic long-term budget projections. At the same time, Presidents would not be so enamored of "the Kennedy speech" (see, especially, Bush I), which itself would help quite a bit.

After Apollo, they developed Shuttle, which, in its 30 years of existence, has given us no significant advantage in the plan for a Return to the Moon and Manned Mission to Mars.

That was mainly the fault of a series of poor management and design decisions starting with Shuttle's selection in 1972, not the ideas of a shuttle or space station themselves. While I will admit that argument feels a bit "No True Scotsman"-ish, its not hard to see that the flight rates proposed to get buy in were insane, budget cuts ordered by the Nixon administration crippled whatever small chance the Shuttle had of getting anywhere even vaguely in the same ballpark as those targets, and finally the military was forced to jump in and promptly screwed everything up. With all that going against it, it is kind of amazing anything even happened.

In addition, it makes no sense whatsoever to build space stations in High Orbit, Lagrange Points, or Lunar Orbit. Really, what do you gain by putting it higher up? You still need to use fuel from earth to get to the Moon, so why bother stopping halfway there?

The reason is to avoid having to develop the Saturn V, and instead being able to get along with the Titan III (and various proposed extensions, and similar sized rockets). Putting fuel into orbit means that you don't need the same massive rockets to launch a mission, and using a space station instead of empty orbit for the "OR" part of "EOR" means that you can benefit from a pressurized holding facility, more open launch windows, various infrastructure (eg., propellant cooling), and so on. High orbit offers distinctive advantages of its own, for example allowing the staging of personnel and equipment above the Van Allen belts (which would be a problem for a geostationary station). A lunar orbit station would offer similar benefits for LOR-type flights, and would allow the use of specialized and optimized spacecraft for the Earth-LLO transit and LLO-Lunar surface portions of the flight (for example, the latter would not need the radiation protection of the former, while conversely the former would not need the landing equipment of the latter). So together they can save costs for a large program, with the LEO stations offering the largest benefit. Additionally, some research can be performed, although the rapidly-advancing state of electronics through the decades will tend to make that less prominent.

But the Russians, with their Heavy-Lift Proton Rockets, would have assembled a space station sooner. They simply had better rocket tech. Good luck assembling a station with Atlas and early Titan. That was actually one of the motives for "Moon by 1970." It would give the Americans plenty of time to develop a Heavy Lift rocket, and the hardware necessary, whereas "We'll build a space station" leaves them vulnerable to further Russian development.

Not really true. The Titan IIIC actually had its maiden flight a month earlier than the Proton, and was far more reliable early on; the latter went through a period in 1969, IIRC, where all but one or two launch attempts ended in failure (with the rocket blowing up, usually). It did not technically enter operational status until 1977! This would tend to put a damper on assembling a space station. While the Titan had a payload to LEO about 7,000 kg smaller than the Proton, there were a number of proposed (but never approved as unnecessary) extensions, such as having four stretched SRBs instead of two unstretched, that would have easily made up the gap. Had the Titan IIIC or a variant been needed for the space race, it could probably have been made available sooner, as its technical problems were nowhere close to those experienced during the Saturn V development. (All numbers are from the astronautix and wikipedia articles; the payload numbers for the Proton are a bit easier to find in the latter due to simpler organization and the wide variety of Protons produced over the years)

Of course, when Kennedy made his speech, the US didn't know any of that, which led them to your conclusion. But it should be relatively easy to avoid that happening, for example by having someone less influential than Webb as Administrator.

I think a Moon landing would be pushed sometime into the 70's if things moved out more gradually. A Space station would probably take up the bulk of activities in the latter 1960's, in my opinion, but would probably aid in getting man to the moon faster and easier depending on how advanced it is and if it is built, or later stations are built after initial ones, as a waypoint between Earth and the Moon (Truth is Life has brought up the smaller Apollo A).

I largely agree with this assessment. Should the moon landing not have been focused on, the most likely behavior from NASA was the construction of a space station and a few flights around the Moon, coupled with robotic probes to that body and many others. A moon landing would have followed later, probably with more grand initial goals than flags and footprints (think the first missions being roughly J-class, instead). It would not, of course, have been as ambitious as the von Braun plans, but something roughly along those lines (space station serves as staging ground for EOR spacecraft with relatively large crew and objectives).

But what if NASA, rather than doing that, followed a more "natural" route with a gradual build up to the moon and beyond? That evolution being something like putting a man into space, testing man in space, satellites and probes, a manned space station for long term duration and experimentation and likely some form of reusable space craft to go to the station (the space station would be an anchor keeping interest in space in a way), a mission around the moon, and a moon landing.

Well, I've intimated my feelings on the matter before, which are simply that spectaculars, a la Apollo/Saturn, were and are simply a waste of time and money that end up hurting more than helping. I feel that a more gradual buildup, focusing on developing infrastructure and cost-effective technology (for launch and space activities), would be far more effective in the medium to long run in ensuring a successful and active space program. Basically, striking just the right balance between stunts (but cool stunts), and boring (but useful) development.
 
The Titan IIIC actually had its maiden flight a month earlier than the Proton, and was far more reliable early on; the latter went through a period in 1969, IIRC, where all but one or two launch attempts ended in failure (with the rocket blowing up, usually). It did not technically enter operational status until 1977!

I take it you mean the Proton didn't reach a sufficiently high level of reliability until then? Several stations and Zonds were launched in that period (and, yes, several failed to launch;)).
 
There isn't the money, that is the program NASA wanted to do, but money wasn't there. After '66 peak NASA budget kept being cut, with major cuts and termination of all future Saturn V production in '68 even before success of Apollo 11. In '69 and '70 further cuts came so planned Lunar missions for which hardware was already built were cut, that's how MSFC got the most expensive lawn ornament in the world. Money initially allocated for shuttle was smaller than NASA wanted (for the real two stage fully reusable system). NASA cut features and performance and managed to squeeze into proposed budget at which point WH reps literally went "excellent, ok ill cut the budget even further and you guys make it work somehow".
 
As much as I don't care a whole lot for Kennedys in general, if not for JFK, humanity would still be dinking around, trying to get to the moon.
 
There isn't the money, that is the program NASA wanted to do, but money wasn't there. After '66 peak NASA budget kept being cut, with major cuts and termination of all future Saturn V production in '68 even before success of Apollo 11. In '69 and '70 further cuts came so planned Lunar missions for which hardware was already built were cut, that's how MSFC got the most expensive lawn ornament in the world. Money initially allocated for shuttle was smaller than NASA wanted (for the real two stage fully reusable system). NASA cut features and performance and managed to squeeze into proposed budget at which point WH reps literally went "excellent, ok ill cut the budget even further and you guys make it work somehow".

This is somewhat inaccurate and (in any event) irrelevant to the OP, because this is not the post-Apollo program NASA wanted to do; this completely replaces the OTL Apollo/Saturn program since there is no goal of landing on the Moon ITTL. IOTL, what you are talking about was the AAP/Shuttle program, but ITTL there was no "A" for the former. No Saturn V (though probably a Saturn I/IB), lower average levels of funding (no "race"), less lofty goals (again, no "race"). With the lower expenses, it becomes far less likely that the space budget gets cut in any significant way[1]. Even if it does, lower expenses means this hurts less overall. And remember that the NASA paradigm (wrt a permanent station) was "station/shuttle". The shuttle carries things to a station, the station does deep-space stuff (staging ground for exploration and all that), giving the shuttle somewhere to go. That means that even if they do start a shuttle program, it has a firmer basis to go on from the start, and they won't be doing any monstrous Freedom proposals to build the station using Shuttle.

I take it you mean the Proton didn't reach a sufficiently high level of reliability until then? Several stations and Zonds were launched in that period (and, yes, several failed to launch;)).

What I was saying was that, according to the Soviets, the thing was not actually reliable enough to be accepted as a production rocket until then. That doesn't mean they didn't use it prior (well, they had to, for testing purposes if nothing else); after all, there were 61 launch attempts between maiden flight and service acceptance.

I should also mention that the Saturn IB, which had a payload nearly identical to the Proton, had its first flight just 7 months later, and had NO failures in its service. The Saturn I, with a maiden flight in 1961, still had roughly half the payload to LEO of its younger brother. So it is pretty silly to say that the US had no medium-lift capability, or inferior medium-lift capability to the Soviets during most of the '60s.

[1]: IOTL, the cuts resulted from three-way pressure between the Great Society, Vietnam, and the Space Race. The latter was of course considered the most disposable. Avoiding either of the former will make it much easier to sustain a higher degree of space exploration, especially avoiding Vietnam since that means the space race is giving a great deal of support to vital defense contractors. Given the current scenario, however, there is probably much less pressure due to lower overall costs. especially since the Saturn V will not need to be developed (expensive), built (expensive), or flown (expensive).
 
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The moon race hastened development in space a drew, for a short time, massive public support and awe. However, it also helped to ensure that the public stopped caring once the moon was conquered, and before infrastructure was established to keep the US in a long term commitment. In the aftermath, the heavy booster Saturn program was abandoned, as was manned travel beyond Low-Earth-Orbit, as well as grander plans like space stations and moon bases and all that.

But what if NASA, rather than doing that, followed a more "natural" route with a gradual build up to the moon and beyond? That evolution being something like putting a man into space, testing man in space, satellites and probes, a manned space station for long term duration and experimentation and likely some form of reusable space craft to go to the station (the space station would be an anchor keeping interest in space in a way), a mission around the moon, and a moon landing.

Hard to say really. If I remember right, the Rocketdyne F1 that powered the Saturn Vs first stage entered development in 1959, so assuming they still get it to work, a Saturn rocket of some kind may still be built - my money is on C1 to C3 type launch vehicles.

This should allow them to reach the Moon sometime in the 1970's EOR style having learned how to make it work and spend a long time in space beforehand.

More interesting is how the USSR fares. With less pressure from the US, they could afford a more relaxed approach, enabling them to mature their technology and possibly have more success. Who knows? They may even have found a means to allow the N-1 to work - assuming it is even built.

Or is there too much ASB in this setup?
 
What about LBJ? The bulk of the Apollo program happened on Johnson's watch. Without his support, it would have been stillborn. In your scenario, once Kennedy is dead is it possible that Johnson would have tried something like a moon shot? Maybe reconfiguring Mercury Mk II (Gemini) into a lunar program? We could have had a man on the moon by late 1967 using Gemini. True, it would have been a very limited program, but it could have been done. Maybe following it up with restarted paraglider development followed by Big Gemini. No Apollo at all! A real Gemini wank!
 
You'd have to kill the space race for this to happen. As long as there is a sense of competition with the USSR, the emphasis will be on getting to the Moon now, if not sooner. It's too great a propaganda weapon to pass up. This emphasis on speed is what happened OTL, and we can see the results of that. However, without that competition, why should the US fund expensive space programs when they can buy more bombers or increase social programs? It's a two-edged sword.
 
The moon race hastened development in space a drew, for a short time, massive public support and awe. However, it also helped to ensure that the public stopped caring once the moon was conquered, and before infrastructure was established to keep the US in a long term commitment. In the aftermath, the heavy booster Saturn program was abandoned, as was manned travel beyond Low-Earth-Orbit, as well as grander plans like space stations and moon bases and all that.

But what if NASA, rather than doing that, followed a more "natural" route with a gradual build up to the moon and beyond? That evolution being something like putting a man into space, testing man in space, satellites and probes, a manned space station for long term duration and experimentation and likely some form of reusable space craft to go to the station (the space station would be an anchor keeping interest in space in a way), a mission around the moon, and a moon landing.

I think we need to focus on the politics more than the science. The space race as I think we all know was primarily motivated by competition and fear between the superpowers. Both sides were keen to show their technological prowess to the world for propaganda reasons.


The rocketry had as much to do with creating ICBM's as it was with building technological wonders to help mankind explore the stars. The two projects fed off each other.

Without the cold war I don't think governments would have spent much on space stuff. The intial investment by both sides was quite large in order to just get things 'off the ground'.

How would you persuade people and politicians to part with enough cash if there was no immediate (real or imagined) threat.

I think without a cold war then not only would no Moon landing have taken place but I even doubt a human being would have made it to orbit yet?

Unfortunately (I am a space fan) the powers that be couldn't care less about space. There is no powerful private sector space lobby or movement among the people to pressure the politicians.

The arms industry has power, religious groups have power, the banks have power and the oil companies have power. The space program doesn't.

We aren't going back to the Moon any time soon. We are staying right here with even the existing manned space program slowly withering away.

We send robots to analyze rocks and the people are bored rigid with it. 'Pure Science' is dull and the people won't part with large sums of money for it unless you give them a BIG REASON.

If money becomes available then people will cry 'spend it on schools and hospitals and feed the poor'.
 
The real question is how do you eventually get it to pay for itself? People aren't going to want to keep funding a program that has no direct benefits. For the whole thing to be successful you have to have it so that there is actual money being made from it and minerals are just not going to cut it. It is simply much, much cheaper to dig them up on Earth.
 
The real question is how do you eventually get it to pay for itself?

Space manufacturing? Tourism? Those are the two earliest profitable ventures in space that I can think of. Then again, how do you quantify scientific knowledge? Hubble hasn't paid for itself, but does anyone regret sending it up there?
 
Space manufacturing? Tourism? Those are the two earliest profitable ventures in space that I can think of. Then again, how do you quantify scientific knowledge? Hubble hasn't paid for itself, but does anyone regret sending it up there?

The first is cheaper on Earth (Unless the low gravity is EXTREMELY valuable as vacuums aren't THAT expensive) and for the second how many people could afford the ticket? Hubble was a one shot deal. Once it was up there you didn't have to keep paying for it.
 
The first is cheaper on Earth (Unless the low gravity is EXTREMELY valuable as vacuums aren't THAT expensive) and for the second how many people could afford the ticket? Hubble was a one shot deal. Once it was up there you didn't have to keep paying for it.
Actually, we did have to go up to fix the Hubble so it would work, and later for maintenance ( not cheap at all ). But purely economic benefits dictate that the private sector will be the future impetus for space exploration. NASA will become a minor player in the future unless national priorities take a hard right turn in the near future.
 
Space manufacturing? Tourism? Those are the two earliest profitable ventures in space that I can think of. Then again, how do you quantify scientific knowledge? Hubble hasn't paid for itself, but does anyone regret sending it up there?

I don't think people think about the Hubble enough to care one way or the other.

Most people don't know how much it costs they only know it takes pictures of stuff.

Tourism is the way to go but that's only because governments in the past had opened the door to space travel.

If you go down the gradualist, step by step route then you lose direction because each generation has different challenges and priorities. Presidents and leaders change and so does fashion.

In the 1950's science was king. Then a generation later there was a malaise with people talking about their 'Earth mother' being in pain.

Right now we have deficits, environmental problems and people scared of everything.

It is difficult to sustain long term committments with goals that only future generations will live to see achieved.

If today we had JFK style leader makig a speech about 'we choose to go to Mars' he/she would be ridiculed and then they would be asked about how many affairs they have had.
 
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