Viking Morroco?

Shackel

Banned
I recall a small kingdom that comprised of the tribes of the Morroco Rift that was, at one point, a subject to Vikings for about 8 days.

What if the Vikings became interested in Africans, or became Islamic, or simply just decided to stay and keep the Rif? Could they eventually draw other Vikings in?

How would this effect Vikings in the short term? How would this effect Morroco, or, if more Vikings come and mate with the Morrocans, the legend of the Vikings?
 
Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
Shackel said:
I recall a small kingdom that comprised of the tribes of the Morroco Rift that was, at one point, a subject to Vikings for about 8 days.

What if the Vikings became interested in Africans, or became Islamic, or simply just decided to stay and keep the Rif? Could they eventually draw other Vikings in?

How would this effect Vikings in the short term? How would this effect Morroco, or, if more Vikings come and mate with the Morrocans, the legend of the Vikings?
Click to expand...

You basically want an Islamic analogue to the Normans? Have a group of Vikings raid lots of coastal settlements Morocco that the local ruler at the time decides to placate the attacking Norse with a piece of territory which in correspondence to your opening post would be situated in the Rif as a vassal while keeping them inland to prevent them from being troublesome. It's an interesting idea. You can have a Norse influenced Arabic or Berber language developing amongst the descendants of any liaisons between Viking and Moroccans.
 

Shackel

Banned
Could the Norse-Berber/Arabic Vikings spread farther in North Africa, either "surviving" or making the Berber Pirates a worse threat in the future?
 

MNP

I think the climate is just too drastically different. Sure you had Varangians in Constantinople and Normans in S.Italy but neither of those changes is as extreme.
 

RGB

MNP said:
I think the climate is just too drastically different. Sure you had Varangians in Constantinople and Normans in S.Italy but neither of those changes is as extreme.
Click to expand...

This. They could not settle because they could not farm there. They could only stay on as a miltiary aristocracy, and that would not last forever.
 

Shackel

Banned
Oh hey there, RGB!
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So, we aren't getting a Norse-Arabic/Berber culture/pirates?

What about increased raids on the inner Mediterranean?
 
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Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
RGB said:
This. They could not settle because they could not farm there. They could only stay on as a miltiary aristocracy, and that would not last forever.
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Well the Vikings once they settle in this area could very well pull off a William the Conquerer and conquer Al-Andalus or at least portions of it.
 

RGB

Shackel said:
Oh hey there, RGB!
--
So, we aren't getting a Norse-Arabic/Berber culture/pirates?

What about increased raids on the innter Mediterranean?
Click to expand...

Hey yourself :D

It's hard. There were Arabs in Sicily, frex, and the closest you came to a hybrid culture was Malta, but that was already on a base of a somewhat distinct culture, and it was mostly an Italian/Semitic hybrid rather than a Norman/Semitic one.

I don't know, how many are going to Morocco anyway? If there's enough, maybe it's possible.
 
Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
Shackel said:
A Norse Africa Caliphate? Now THAT sounds like an interesting timeline.
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Aw hell someone has to do it. I'm sure there's someone who's willing to do a time-line on a Norse-influenced Arab-Beber horde conquering a swathe of land across North Africa and southern Europe. :DAnd I think a couple thousand (maybe around 5,000-11,000) as a beginning male population would be enough to have a strong influence on the Rif people living there. You just need a reason for them to send so many of them down south.
 

Niko Malaka

MNP said:
I think the climate is just too drastically different. Sure you had Varangians in Constantinople and Normans in S.Italy but neither of those changes is as extreme.
Click to expand...

RGB said:
This. They could not settle because they could not farm there. They could only stay on as a miltiary aristocracy, and that would not last forever.
Click to expand...

Why it's so different from S. Italy? The Rif has a relatively mild climate. It may be as you say in the inmediate shore, but being a montanious region, in the interior you have a high pluviosity (for the mediterranean standards), forests and permanent snow in the top of the mountains...and monkeys. It's not at all a desert. I agree that it couldn't sustain a large norman colonization, but on the other hand it isn't either a very large region. The norman-berber cultural mixing could have also interesting results, (as would do the discovery of how good for the cannabis is the local environment:p) I don't espect a powerful kingdom based in the Rif, but with a bit of luck they could survive long enough to have local historical effect, taking in consideration that Rift's orography uses to work against foreing conquerors (that also could put in problems those normans in the Rif if the locals decide to resist)

Cheers.
 

RGB

Shackel said:
Oh hey there, RGB!
--
So, we aren't getting a Norse-Arabic/Berber culture/pirates?

What about increased raids on the inner Mediterranean?
Click to expand...

Sa'id Mohammed said:
Aw hell someone has to do it. I'm sure there's someone who's willing to do a time-line on a Norse-influenced Arab-Beber horde conquering a swathe of land across North Africa and southern Europe. :DAnd I think a couple thousand (maybe around 5,000-11,000) as a beginning male population would be enough to have a strong influence on the Rif people living there. You just need a reason for them to send so many of them down south.
Click to expand...

What's in the Rif in 1000?

I can see why Russia or Normandy or Sicily are attractive...the Rif, I don't know, perhaps a rerouting of the salt/gold trade, later diversifying into slaves?
 

Shackel

Banned
Sa'id Mohammed said:
Aw hell someone has to do it. I'm sure there's someone who's willing to do a time-line on a Norse-influenced Arab-Beber horde conquering a swathe of land across North Africa and southern Europe. :DAnd I think a couple thousand (maybe around 5,000-11,000) as a beginning male population would be enough to have a strong influence on the Rif people living there. You just need a reason for them to send so many of them down south.
Click to expand...

The promise of new riches from Southern France, Italy, and the Byzantines that they'll be able to reach?

Also, and here's one that I've really been thinking about, if we have Vikings so close to the Atlantic, could we see Icelandish-type settlements on the Canarias, and maybe even a southern Vinland? Would that "Vinland" last a little longer than the original?
 

RGB

Shackel said:
The promise of new riches from Southern France, Italy, and the Byzantines that they'll be able to reach?

Also, and here's one that I've really been thinking about, if we have Vikings so close to the Atlantic, could we see Icelandish-type settlements on the Canarias, and maybe even a southern Vinland? Would that "Vinland" last a little longer than the original?
Click to expand...

Actually, why not the Canaries themselves, once they're discovered? A more perfect base to go a-viking from has not been devised, I think.
 

MNP

RGB said:
I don't know, how many are going to Morocco anyway? If there's enough, maybe it's possible.
Click to expand...
The only way I can see it is if something like the Saqaliba happens. Remember that in Normady they became French and it was the half-French Normans at best that arrived in S.Italy. Even in such a case it's not going to be remotely Norse, they'll just be an Arab/Berber hybrid culture with vestigial Norse elements. That's not unlikely, and in fact there are essentially white Berbers though whether they descend primarily from European slaves or ancient inhabitants is somewhat unclear. Al-Andalus itself is a better fit and in fact in my own Raptor of Spain the Norse settled in Green Spain and Aquitaine (instead of Normandy) but even in something like that you're going to get mostly name elements surviving like I had in Olaf/Olavez, Alvar/Alvaro etc.

The reason that didn't happen as much in the British Isles, was because it was a lot closer to the homeland, the Saxons they ruled over had a related culture, and population levels on the island were far lower than on the continent so they didn't just get absorbed in a few generations.

Obviously I can be wrong, but I think I've made a case for why it's unlikely.

ED: Canary islands are going to be interesting. Obviously it's going to be easier there since they won't face the population and cultural pressures but remember the natives on the Canaries resisted the Spanish for several generations and the terrain is pretty harsh. You're likely to get something like what happened with the Thule inuit where they trade some and fought some and generally stayed out of each other's way.
 
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RGB

MNP said:
The only way I can see it is if something like the Saqaliba happens. Remember that in Normady they became French and it was the half-French Normans at best that arrived in S.Italy. Even in such a case it's not going to be remotely Norse, they'll just be an Arab/Berber hybrid culture with vestigial Norse elements. That's not unlikely, and in fact there are essentially white Berbers though whether they descend primarily from European slaves or ancient inhabitants is somewhat unclear. Al-Andalus itself is a better fit and in fact in my own Raptor of Spain the Norse settled in Green Spain and Aquitaine (instead of Normandy) but even in something like that you're going to get mostly name elements surviving like I had in Olaf/Olavez, Alvar/Alvaro etc.
Click to expand...

I'm fundamentally in agreement with you. The Norse element of the Varangians did not survive the fourth generation in Russia, either, to any overwhelming effect, and moreso here. I can see a soldier caste within the Islamic setting ruling the Rif, like the Slavs in Valencia.

But I do admit the original idea is kinda cool so I'm throwing out suggestions, maybe some will be useful.
 

Niko Malaka

MNP said:
The only way I can see it is if something like the Saqaliba happens. Remember that in Normady they became French and it was the half-French Normans at best that arrived in S.Italy. Even in such a case it's not going to be remotely Norse, they'll just be an Arab/Berber hybrid culture with vestigial Norse elements. That's not unlikely, and in fact there are essentially white Berbers though whether they descend primarily from European slaves or ancient inhabitants is somewhat unclear. Al-Andalus itself is a better fit and in fact in my own Raptor of Spain the Norse settled in Green Spain and Aquitaine (instead of Normandy) but even in something like that you're going to get mostly name elements surviving like I had in Olaf/Olavez, Alvar/Alvaro etc.

The reason that didn't happen as much in the British Isles, was because it was a lot closer to the homeland, the Saxons they ruled over had a related culture, and population levels on the island were far lower than on the continent so they didn't just get absorbed in a few generations.

Obviously I can be wrong, but I think I've made a case for why it's unlikely.
Click to expand...

That's a good point. I would simply add that furthermore, the Rif is nowadays one of the surviving berber islands in the Maghreb for a reason.
 

Shackel

Banned
RGB said:
Actually, why not the Canaries themselves, once they're discovered? A more perfect base to go a-viking from has not been devised, I think.
Click to expand...

Could the Canaries draw in more Vikings to Morocco?

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Oi, I hate it when I find out I'm spelling something wrong after typing it 5+ times.
 
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