Hochseeflotte and Royal Navy go full bore in North Sea 1914
- Thread starter Commissar
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MrP
Banned
My initial thought is death, but there is a window (which I forget) from the HSF to meet the Grand Fleet on an equal (or was it slightly superior?) footing.
RN decisive victory: No Gallipoli. Instead a landing in Danish, Dutch or German territory.
KM decisive victory: the British can neither supply nor reinforce their forces in France/Belgium.
RN decisive victory: No Gallipoli. Instead a landing in Danish, Dutch or German territory.
KM decisive victory: the British can neither supply nor reinforce their forces in France/Belgium.
Not necessarily. After all, Gallipoli still failed despite total Allied control of the Aegean. Also, the HSF had total ascendancy in the Baltic (afaik the Russian Baltic Fleet never ventured out of the Gulf of Finland) yet Germany never attempted an amphibious landing anywhere until October 1917, when Russia was virtually kaput.
Da Pwnzlord
Banned
Probably a Grand Fleet victory. The British had won the naval race. They had a significant advantage in numbers which would only grow later. I think there was a short time frame in which the Germans could claim parity in numbers with a few British battlecruisers being detached and a dreadnought or two out for maintenance, but I don't think that's what the WI is positing. The High Seas Fleet is probably reduced to a coastal defense force for the rest of the war.
Even in the unlikely event of a crushing German victory, Britain can call upon its substantial reserves of second-line ships and allies to fill the gap. Expect more QEs and/or all eight original Revenges to be completed. Heads will roll and the Royal Navy will get all the funds it needs for a generation.
Even in the unlikely event of a crushing German victory, Britain can call upon its substantial reserves of second-line ships and allies to fill the gap. Expect more QEs and/or all eight original Revenges to be completed. Heads will roll and the Royal Navy will get all the funds it needs for a generation.
The HSF gets wasted, as does the Grand Fleet. However, since the RN was used to actually fighting battles at sea, including accepting losses, and the UK yards could outproduce the German yards about 5-1 the end result is a dominant RN and the HSF failing to exist as even a fleet in being.
The consequences for the war overall are difficult to gauge, but the impact on ship building would be probably an even bigger demand for BB & even BC designs.
The consequences for the war overall are difficult to gauge, but the impact on ship building would be probably an even bigger demand for BB & even BC designs.
The HSF never was engaged in operations in the Baltic, except on some rare ocassions. The Germans managed to keep the Russians at bay with a rather weak and odd mix of older craft.
An early clash between GF and HSF would most probably end in a Pyrrhic British victory: HSF gone, but not much of the GF left.
That would basically not change much, as British superiorty in small craft and geographic situation still would enable the blockade to be upheld.
It might, however, change a lot in the British public mind. The Senior Service had been decimated and the USA now were the foremost sea power in the Atlantic.
An early clash between GF and HSF would most probably end in a Pyrrhic British victory: HSF gone, but not much of the GF left.
That would basically not change much, as British superiorty in small craft and geographic situation still would enable the blockade to be upheld.
It might, however, change a lot in the British public mind. The Senior Service had been decimated and the USA now were the foremost sea power in the Atlantic.
Commissar
Banned
Okay, lets say both sides, BB and BC are mutually annihilated. The Germans stick to keeping the North Sea mined, the British never seriously entertained trying to force through those minefields.
However, if the British devote much of their shipbuilding to replacing the losses, what do they sacrifice for the British Army?
Would Tank development get any funding in such a scenario?
Would America float the loans to replace those ships?
Would Britain write BBs and BCs off as bad investments and go for a cruiser based Navy?
Da Pwnzlord
Banned
I can't say what exactly would be cut be cut in the army to make up for loses. I think they would continue building battleships, taking into account lessons learned at the alt-Jutland. Those lessons probably include "battlecruisers=bad idea" since a likely feature of this battle is cordite explosions galore. The Hood is never conceived. But ultimately the dreadnought-based fleet was probably just vindicated. It destroyed the only fleet capable of threatening Britain, and therefore did its job.
I think America would give them the loans, just because Britain *looks like* it is in a better position than it was OTL. The High Seas fleet is gone, so Britian itself is in the clear. There will be something like 14 brand new battleships coming online before the end of the war minimum. (The canceled QE class Agincourt and 3 Revenges) Also, there won't be a need for the light forces escorting the Grand Fleet, and they can be put to use guarding against the U-boats. USW may never be put to use in this timeline. If the last time the Kaiser listening to crazy newfangled naval ideas got his shiny new fleet trashed, he may not look kindly upon proposals to antagonize the United States.
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Da Pwnzlord
Banned
I think they were just *better* at night fighting, not necessarily "experts". Scheer didn't go for a night action at Jutland after all. Nor were the German ships that much better designed than the British ones, especially at this stage of the war. I think the Derflinger very nearly suffered a cordite explosion at Dogger Bank, and safer practices were put into place after that. If the Hochseeflotte goes crusin' for a bruisin' in 1914, their ships may be just as easy to blow up as British ones.
Commissar
Banned
In which case Germany wins, because America doesn't declare war thus meaning the Allies don't have the American reserves to plug the gaps ripped open by the 1918 offensives.
Da Pwnzlord
Banned
I'm pretty sure that other threads have discussed America not entering WWI, and the usual conclusion is that the Germans were on their last legs anyway and the 1918 offensives were born of desperation. They tried to beat the Allies before the U.S. makes a difference and failed. TTL may never see such offensives launched. Russia may never collapse because the RN launches a campaign to force open the Baltic in 1916 with the QEs and Revenges built since 1914. There are a massive number of butterflies associated with this battle.
MrP
Banned
I was in W. H. Smith's (a well known British newsagent's) the other day, and I caught sight of a publication (the name of which escapes me) which bore a title akin to "Great Naval Battles of WWI". I kneeled down, plucked it from the rear rank of periodicals, and felt sad. It only contained reports of martial (not marital - see Pratchett) disagreements between the British and German navies. No Ottomans. No Russians.
On the other hand, before I joined this forum I would not have assumed that. I am sorry. I must break off. My mother has been ill these last few days, and I had put it down to the situation - pardon my inaccuracy - which women suffer when they have passed the menopause. I just left my room, and an NHS medic with bag was going with Dad into her room. I cannot think now. Sorry.
On the other hand, before I joined this forum I would not have assumed that. I am sorry. I must break off. My mother has been ill these last few days, and I had put it down to the situation - pardon my inaccuracy - which women suffer when they have passed the menopause. I just left my room, and an NHS medic with bag was going with Dad into her room. I cannot think now. Sorry.
MrP
Banned
I don't know. I can hear speech from Mum and Dad's room. I don't want to intervene, as I regard it as unwise to put myself inside a medical matter. I shall have to get back to you./
MrP
Banned
I was addressing the topic when an unexpected occurrence took place. it has quite thrown my mind off its course. Forgive my commingling of the two topics, please.What does this have to do with the topic?
Thank you. Dad, in his car, is following Mum, in the ambulance. I shall put something in Non-Political Chat about this.
Commissar
Banned
Which is utter Bullshit. With Russia defeated the Germans had access to the Ukrainian Breadbasket and all their food supply was guaranteed.
The British and French on the other hand were falling apart with units mutinying and complete collapse was averted when they were notified that the Americans were coming and taking the heat off them.
The Germans on the other hand had had nothing but victories having smashed the Serbs, the Italians, the Russians, the Romanians the Belgians, and had the French against the wall. Their morale was sky high.
Also the British fighting through the Baltic is a pipe dream. They would be sucked into a minefield and destroyed if they tried it. Not even the USN of 1944 would have tried it.