An Islamic Romania

I frankly do not know if it is possible but with a POD starting in the year 1500 and ending in the year 1900, have a significant portion of the Romanian people convert to Islam. Bonus points if it is Wallachia, Moldova, or Transylvania that converts to Islam.
 

Don Grey

Banned
I frankly do not know if it is possible but with a POD starting in the year 1500 and ending in the year 1900, have a significant portion of the Romanian people convert to Islam. Bonus points if it is Wallachia, Moldova, or Transylvania that converts to Islam.

Its actualy not that hard (hell i can covert the entire ottoman balkans including greece and the caucauses if you want).The only reason the balkans didnt completly convert was because the ottomans left the christians to there own devices and the fact that muslims were exterminated in the regions when ever the ottomans lost control of said regions. But i must ask first doesnt it matter how i do it aslong as i dont use ASB's and handwaviums?

Edit: Thought about it hears my ideas.

First some fun facts about the past:
The jizya tax was quite low. Merchants could still do bussiness like muslims some actualy got quite rich. They had there own courst some ran there own regions/villages etc.Social moblity was ofcourse not as high as muslims but it wasnt bad enough that it would hinder there well being greatly. Mehmet had restablished the patriarchy to its former power and glory then as time passed it grew in size and power as the ottomans did. The state did help out churches through the patriarchy. But even though with all of this large swathes did start to convert especialy in the balkans. Too a point that either muslims were a majority of quite a bit of areas or a pularity in others. There was very little areas which they were a minority. But im going to change all that.

Before mehmet took C-town there were mass convertions some were disillusion with there faith or there former master that ruled by that faith or what ever the reasons were. Before mehmet restablished the patriarchy convertion was very high but it all almost completly stoped after it was restablished. So mehmet isnt such a nice guy and eradicates the patriarchy and hangs all of its members (honestly whos going to stop him). After that he raises the jizya tax to a point right before subsistance farming. Takes out all social movement for christians. Makes it very hard for there merchants to do bussiness. Doesnt let them rule thems selves on a local level or any other level for that matter. Doesnt allow christian courst to exsist. Makes it a state policie to put pressure on them to convert. Creates a special fund for islamisation programs. Having schooles hospitals and aid centers connected to the masques to constantly draw them towards them. Creats a fund for langauge programs. Systematicaly eliminating all local written langauges.Replacing it with schools that teach ottoman. Creates and emphasis on converstion and langauge as a state phylosohpy. Makes it extremly difficult for preists and churches to function properly. Effecttively making christion the prime example of second class citizens.Sends goverment officals to every major christian city/province under its control to tell the people that if they convert taxes will go away social mobility will become easy merchants will be able to do bussiness just like every one else.

Through the course of 1400 to 1900 (sorry i had to bring the pod back i need to do that to make it a garante and to change mehmets policies on christians) not only will you have a muslim walachia but a prodominantly muslim balkans greece and caucasus.The point is to get to the 50% mark then its all downhill from there. And that mark will be reached in about a generation or two.

If you just want walachia to be converted then in the battle of 1462 when mehmet goes to walachia with his 60.000 regular and 30,000 iregular troops instead just just invading walachia and taking the capital because vlad refused to meet him on open field (you can say alot about vlad but you cant call him stupid).So Vlad does meet him on open field his
army is desimated and he is killed in battle along with his top commanders. Then just like the otl the capital is taken but this time walachia is over run and the policies i have said above are employed in walachia and large garrison of men are left there to make sure the polices are enforced.

There you have does it suit your needs?
 
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Though Ottoman suzerainty wasn't pleasant for Wallachia and Moldavia, they did have self-government. There was very little freedom to practice Islam and those princes who flirted with the religion found themselves marginalized. So what you'd have to do is bring the Principalities under direct Turkish rule, which would be somewhat easy for Wallachia (almost annexed in 1595) and somewhat challenging for Moldavia (given the Polish interest in it). As for Transylvania, it would be a very tough nut to crack given its defensive potential, relative autonomy and Habsburg attitudes.
 

Don Grey

Banned
Though Ottoman suzerainty wasn't pleasant for Wallachia and Moldavia, they did have self-government. There was very little freedom to practice Islam and those princes who flirted with the religion found themselves marginalized. So what you'd have to do is bring the Principalities under direct Turkish rule, which would be somewhat easy for Wallachia (almost annexed in 1595) and somewhat challenging for Moldavia (given the Polish interest in it). As for Transylvania, it would be a very tough nut to crack given its defensive potential, relative autonomy and Habsburg attitudes.

I agree with this. But i think i may have a solution to the transylvania problam.

If the policies ive written above are employed early on in the balkans say starting from 1400's when walachia is annexed and trans is taken on later date what if the ottomans make polcies and place large numbers of muslim imgirants from the balkans to trans which would asimilate them through time.

Would that work?
 
I agree with this. But i think i may have a solution to the transylvania problam.

If the policies ive written above are employed early on in the balkans say starting from 1400's when walachia is annexed and trans is taken on later date what if the ottomans make polcies and place large numbers of muslim imgirants from the balkans to trans which would asimilate them through time.

Would that work?

You need Romanian themselves to change faiths. Muslim immigration doesn't help this and assimilation defeats the purpose of the thread since you end up no longer having a Romanian people if, as in your first post, you try to eliminate the local languages (though I don't see the Ottomans even considering that and certainly not succeeding).

Transylvania's problem is that it is much harder to annexate it to begin with, but you don't really need to spread Islam there to meet the challenge.
 

Don Grey

Banned
You need Romanian themselves to change faiths. Muslim immigration doesn't help this and assimilation defeats the purpose of the thread since you end up no longer having a Romanian people if, as in your first post, you try to eliminate the local languages (though I don't see the Ottomans even considering that and certainly not succeeding).

Transylvania's problem is that it is much harder to annexate it to begin with, but you don't really need to spread Islam there to meet the challenge.

So were basicaly left with direct annexian and rule of walachia and hoping people convert?
 
So were basicaly left with direct annexian and rule of walachia and hoping people convert?

They did everywhere else. Even if the rate of conversion is as low as it was among the Greeks and Bulgarians you'll still have "a significant portion" of Romanians who are Muslims.
 
Assimilation into the point that they lose their language defeats the purpose of the threat, I want something similar to what Hoodbhoy was saying. A large percentage (somewhere between 20 to 40 percent) convert to Islam while retaining their language and customs, the last thing I want is an eradication of languages hence my disapproval over Don Grey's views on the Ottomans. I want something along the lines of Bosnia if it's possible.
 
Have the Turks annexate Wallachia outright, partition Moldavia between them and Poland-Lithuania and get the Western borderland of Transylvania under their rule earlier. This brings a comfortable majority of Romanian-inhabited territory under Ottoman rule. Then make sure they keep it for a long time.
 
Would it be possible for this to happen earlier, perhaps the Nogai tartars settle in Romania instead of going east? They might be able to integrate the entire Roamanian population into an Islamic state. The Turko-Romanians would be an allied power similar to the Crimeans for the Ottomans (if we ignore butterflies).
 
Would it be possible for this to happen earlier, perhaps the Nogai tartars settle in Romania instead of going east? They might be able to integrate the entire Roamanian population into an Islamic state. The Turko-Romanians would be an allied power similar to the Crimeans for the Ottomans (if we ignore butterflies).

As long as the newcomers don't displace the Romanian population, that would seem fine as they integrate into the community. Perhaps the Ottomans begins a policy in keeping the children of the native nobility hostage in Constantinople and instead of making them completely forget their origins, have them swear loyalty to the Sultan and convert to Islam and then later on as adults they are sent back to Wallachia to administer the state in the name of the Turks. A top to down conversion would seem good.

Bonus points if this Wallachian language is written in Arabic script.
 
Bonus points if this Wallachian language is written in Arabic script.

That's only going to go so far, once people recognize that *Wallachian (should it be Muntenian or Oltenian? ;)) has similar linguistic origins with French and Italian - then you'll have people switching to the Latin alphabet and try to erase linguistic influence from other languages by means of both importing loanwords from French and Italian and randomly trying to emulate the Western European Romance languages. Similar to OTL, in fact - but in OTL one couldn't eliminate entirely the Slavic influence on Romanian. In TTL, *Wallachian is going to have influence from Slavic, Greek, and Perso-Arabo-Turkic:
  • Perso-Arabo-Turkic due to common ties with other Muslims and partly because of Ottoman Turkish being the state language (though this time, other Turkic languages - Gagauz, Crimean Tatar, and Chagatai, for example - could establish some influence which could differ from Ottoman Turkish and thus create some deviance)
  • Slavic and Greek, due to its position in the Balkan sprachbund (not necessarily based on religion) - though in TTL, it could farther and along the lines of Aromanian
Just my 2¢.
 
That's only going to go so far, once people recognize that *Wallachian (should it be Muntenian or Oltenian? ;)) has similar linguistic origins with French and Italian - then you'll have people switching to the Latin alphabet and try to erase linguistic influence from other languages by means of both importing loanwords from French and Italian and randomly trying to emulate the Western European Romance languages. Similar to OTL, in fact - but in OTL one couldn't eliminate entirely the Slavic influence on Romanian. In TTL, *Wallachian is going to have influence from Slavic, Greek, and Perso-Arabo-Turkic:
  • Perso-Arabo-Turkic due to common ties with other Muslims and partly because of Ottoman Turkish being the state language (though this time, other Turkic languages - Gagauz, Crimean Tatar, and Chagatai, for example - could establish some influence which could differ from Ottoman Turkish and thus create some deviance)
  • Slavic and Greek, due to its position in the Balkan sprachbund (not necessarily based on religion) - though in TTL, it could farther and along the lines of Aromanian
Just my 2¢.

You do have good reasons to suggest the importation of words from the western Romance languages to this Wallachian language. I suppose that's left to how things precede once Islam has penetrated and converted most of Wallachia's population. I can suppose the language would be written in Arabic script in the first couple of centuries and then back to Latin script [or maybe a Romanian variant of the Latin script] to write it in.
 
do you mean it would been more easy than annexed Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia? why?

Because the POD is in 1500 and those areas have already been annexed to the Ottoman Empire not that it did them any good, they kept the Eastern Orthodox Church alive and some may say even prospering to prevent mass conversions to Islam.
 
Because the POD is in 1500 and those areas have already been annexed to the Ottoman Empire not that it did them any good, they kept the Eastern Orthodox Church alive and some may say even prospering to prevent mass conversions to Islam.
I really don't understand! So, why Romania to become islamic? In fact, I think ottomans intended to islamise Bulgaria, and many even becomed(pomaks). They gave up when Vlad Țepeș impaled tens of thousands muslims, men, women, elders and childrens
 
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