Challenge: The Big Dominions

TheMann

TheMann

Inspired by the "New Zealand as part of the United Kingdom" thread, here is a new challenge. You have to make the large number of colonies into a few, bigger ones. Britain had dozens of colonies, and I wonder what could have been if that number could have been reduced.

Canada: OTL plus Britain's Caribbean territories (Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica, Bahamas, Turks and Caicos Islands, Belize, Grenada, Montserrat and the other islands)

Australia: OTL plus New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Fiji Islands, Tuvalu, Western Samoa, Vanuatu

South Africa: OTL plus South-West Africa, Bechuanaland, Rhodesia, Nyasaland, Swaziland and Lesotho, Tristan de Cunha and St. Helena

India: OTL plus Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and the Maldives

Nigeria: OTL plus Cameroons, Gold Coast, Sierra Leone, Gambia and Ascension Island

East Africa: Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Zanzibar, South Sudan, British Somaliland, Seychelles, Mauritius and Diego Garcia

United Arab Emirates: UAE, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, Aden, North Sundan, Bahrain, Socotra and Palestine (whether there is an Israel or not is up to you)

Malaya: Malaysia, Singapore, British North Borneo, Sarawak

United Kingdom: OTL Great Britain plus Ireland, Gibraltar, Malta, Cyprus, Hong Kong, Falklands and South Sandwich Islands and Iceland

Any POD after 1900 is acceptable for this. Bonus points if all of these territories are represented in a parliament in London.
 

Whanztastic

Malaya seems the easiest. Or it could even be part of India if you try, or Hong Kong part of it.

Having Iceland being part of the UK seems a bit out there.
 
Umbric Man

Umbric Man

Beedok said:
Or have Canada accept Britains offer of those islands later on.
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When did this happen? *intrigued*

Anyways, had the 1923 South Rhodesia vote to join South Africa worked in SA's favor, Nyasaland and North Rhodesia will quickly fall in line with the new economic giant since South Rhodesia was the big boy of the area...slap on Lesthoso and Swaziland since if the other states in the area successfully joined, there's more pressure on them to join as well when they were offered the chance to in OTL.

Incidentally, the best way to get the 1923 referendum, the OTL Swaziland/Lesthoso offers to join, and Nyasaland/North Rhodesia eventually joining is to make South Africa a federal and not unitary state IMO. Who knows, perhaps the greater amount of 'Anglos' can dilute South African politics enough to prevent arpathied...

EDIT: A more balanced or tinkered federal structure for India to keep it 'Greater' maybe? I think in the 1910s discussion of home rule there was some talk of that...
 
Beedok

Beedok

Umbric Man said:
When did this happen? *intrigued*
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I am unsure of the exact year, but in the post war era Britain wanted to dump some colonies off on the Dominions, Australia and NZ happily accepted some islands, SA got something, but the Canadian government went all morale and said they didn't want to be imperialists.:(
 
Simon

Simon

Well that's not really all that surprising. Aside from the whole not wanting to be imperialists thing why on earth would they actively want them? IIRC unlike the Australian and New Zealand territories which were close-ish or at least in the same general region the Caribbean territories are over two thousand miles or more away from the nearest Canadian territory with the US in the way of a lot of it. The islands are so culturally different and offer absolutely no economic advantage, if anything they'd more likely be a drain on Canadian finances, that they'd be silly to accept ownership of them. Your best bet I would have thought would be for a successful West Indies Federation even if it will be the smallest Dominion of the lot.
 
Dan1988

Dan1988

Beedok said:
I am unsure of the exact year, but in the post war era Britain wanted to dump some colonies off on the Dominions, Australia and NZ happily accepted some islands, SA got something, but the Canadian government went all morale and said they didn't want to be imperialists.:(
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No - Borden asked Lloyd George if the UK was willing to hand over control of its Caribbean territories to Canada, and Lloyd George just gave Borden the middle finger. Had it been accepted (or, indeed, any of the other attempts from the 19th century), things could have been much more interesting.
 
TheMann

TheMann

Dan1988 said:
You're forgetting Bermuda. ;)
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Yes, and Bermuda. (D'Oh!) Guyana is also part of the UK, similar to how French Guiana is part of France.

Anyways, the map. Now, I suck at mapmaking, so I've undoubtedly got some things wrong here, but this is close enough, I think.

British Empire Big Dominions.PNG
 
Simon

Simon

Dan1988 said:
No - Borden asked Lloyd George if the UK was willing to hand over control of its Caribbean territories to Canada, and Lloyd George just gave Borden the middle finger.
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He actively wanted them? Wow, that's demented. Do you know why he wanted them, because as I posted before I'm struggling to think of a logical reason why he would?
 
Dan1988

Dan1988

TheMann said:
Yes, and Bermuda. (D'Oh!) Guyana is also part of the UK, similar to how French Guiana is part of France.

Anyways, the map. Now, I suck at mapmaking, so I've undoubtedly got some things wrong here, but this is close enough, I think.
Click to expand...

I like that. Question though - wouldn't Cameroun join Nigeria in this case?
 
Dan1988

Dan1988

Simon said:
He actively wanted them? Wow, that's demented.
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Actually no - more like logic and reason. ;) (Not to mention all the attempts from the various Caribbean countries during the 19th century to join the Dominion - Jamaica, for example).

Simon said:
Do you know why he wanted them, because as I posted before I'm struggling to think of a logical reason why he would?
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Simple - since Australia was to take over the Territory of Papua from the UK, so the thinking goes, why not have Canada take over Britain's Caribbean colonies, eventually having them become provinces of Canada? I, for one, would admit that that would be interesting.
 

Chris S

TheMann said:
Inspired by the "New Zealand as part of the United Kingdom" thread, here is a new challenge. You have to make the large number of colonies into a few, bigger ones. Britain had dozens of colonies, and I wonder what could have been if that number could have been reduced.

Canada: OTL plus Britain's Caribbean territories (Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica, Bahamas, Turks and Caicos Islands, Belize, Grenada, Montserrat and the other islands)
Click to expand...

IIRC British Guiana was to be a part of Caribbean territories that were to be handed over to Canada as per the proposal at Versailles and other later proposal. It certainly would never be a part of the United Kingdom proper. French Guiana is not a model, because the French administered their empire in a different way, especially after 1946 (when French Guiana actually became an overseas department of France). Bermuda might have been included in these proposals as well.

Australia: OTL plus New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Fiji Islands, Tuvalu, Western Samoa, Vanuatu
Click to expand...

You're map shows the whole of New Guinea as well as Portuguese Timor as being part of this "Australasia" dominion. This is extremely unlikely with a POD after 1900 unless we have some kind of Anglo-Dutch swap of territories (unlikely since the Dutch treasured their possessions in the East Indies) and Anglo-Portuguese swap or unless we have a war between the UK and Portugal (really unlikely) and the UK and the Netherlands (again unlikely)

South Africa: OTL plus South-West Africa, Bechuanaland, Rhodesia, Nyasaland, Swaziland and Lesotho, Tristan de Cunha and St. Helena
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This would probably require the 1923 referendum in southern Rhodesia to go another way and for South African proposals for Britain to transfer Bechuanaland, Swaziland and Basutoland (Lesotho) to be accepted.

India: OTL plus Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and the Maldives
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OTL did include Pakistan (before independence) and Burma (before the 1940s). If Ceylon (Sri Lanka) had been included at some point then the Maldives would probably have been brought in automatically on account of the Maldives being administratively attached to Ceylon.

Nigeria: OTL plus Cameroons, Gold Coast, Sierra Leone, Gambia and Ascension Island
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This would be the old British West Africa colony (which existed twice in OTL but never included the majority of Nigeria and only had Lagos after it's second incarnation) plus Ascension Island.

East Africa: Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Zanzibar, South Sudan, British Somaliland, Seychelles, Mauritius and Diego Garcia
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There were plans for an East African federation of Kenya, Uganda, Tanganyika and Zanzibar (Tanzania would naturally include Zanzibar since it's name is a portmanteau of TANganyika and ZANzibar with an "-ia" suffix). British Somaliland was once administered from Aden and thus was a part of the Indian Empire. Doubt they would be attached to an East African dominion. Maybe South Sudan would.

Diego Garcia was a part of the Seychelles until the Seychelles became independent.

United Arab Emirates: UAE, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, Aden, North Sundan, Bahrain, Socotra and Palestine (whether there is an Israel or not is up to you)
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Super unlikely, but in OTL there were attempts to have all of the Trucial States (now the UAE, Qatar and Bahrain) unite as a Federation of Arab Emirates. In Sudan there was a time when Egyptian nationalists (along with some Sudanese I believe) wished for an independent union of Egypt and Sudan. The old Indian Empire included southern Yemen (including Aden) for a while.

Malaya: Malaysia, Singapore, British North Borneo, Sarawak
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I think you forgot Brunei and you mixed up Malaya and Malaysia. Malaysia would be union of Malaya (the mainland peninsular area), Singapore, British North Borneo (Sabah), Sarawak and Brunei

United Kingdom: OTL Great Britain plus Ireland, Gibraltar, Malta, Cyprus, Hong Kong, Falklands and South Sandwich Islands and Iceland
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There were proposals for Gibraltar and Malta to become full parts of the United Kingdom I believe. Iceland would require a POD before 1900 unless Denmark is involved in some kind of disastrous war (against either Britain or against a common enemy of Britain and Denmark with Denmark losing and transferring Iceland to Britain to prevent it being taken over by said common enemy or something). There were proposals to exchange Iceland for one of the Virgin Islands in the 1780s and to give Iceland to Britain in exchange for help offered during the Prusso-Danish war I think.
 

Russell

Dan1988 said:
Simple - since Australia was to take over the Territory of Papua from the UK, so the thinking goes, why not have Canada take over Britain's Caribbean colonies, eventually having them become provinces of Canada? I, for one, would admit that that would be interesting.
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Australia did not take over Papua from Britain. Settlers from Queensland occupied the region AGAINST the wishes of London and claimed it in the name of Queensland (and Empire) but it was never admnistrated by London.

As far as I know, it was the Canadian parliament that was against the transfer of the British West Indes on the grounds that:

A: Canada would have to defend them. During the interwar Period Canada cut it's military to the bone and by 1939 it only had six destroyers as the core of it's fleet. The RCN almost became demoted to that of a civilian agency. Canada far preferred for someone else to foot that bill.

B: By 1918, the West Indes were no longer as profitable as they had once been, and were in point of fact bleeding money. Their main industrial base had been agriculture but by the early 20th century production on an industrial scale meant that the small plantations were now obsolete but could not be expanded due to land restrictions.

Certainly Britain wouldn't mind if Canada took over responsability for the West Indes - it was broke after the war and would quite happily encourage its dominions take over responsability for running certain parts of the Empire and sharing the costs. The dominions on the other hand were more than a little aprehensive.

Russell
 

Chris S

Russell said:
Australia did not take over Papua from Britain. Settlers from Queensland occupied the region AGAINST the wishes of London and claimed it in the name of Queensland (and Empire) but it was never admnistrated by London.
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That was in 1883. The year after Britain then established a protectorate over the same area (following promises of financial support from the Australian colonies). That protectorate was then annexed as British New Guinea in 1888 and was administered from London along the lines of other colonies. In 1902 Britain passed de facto administration of British New Guinea over to Australia and formalized it in 1906 with the 1905 Papua Act.
 

Some Bloke

If the POD's after 1900 I think we can rule out a Greater Australia with New Zealand and a Greater Canada plus the West Indies.

However, extended South Africa, India (maybe) and East Africa (minus Somaliland) I think may be plausible.

However ...

The West African United Dominion idea just won't fly because it's several non contiguous territories and you'll have to cross French territory in order to link them up with infrastructure.

It may be possible to federate the West Indies a la Malaya (no inconvenient borders, just miles and miles of big blue briney).

But the scenario's interesting and once and exact POD's been worked out I'd love to see how the timeline works out.
 

Chris S

Some Bloke said:
However ...

The West African United Dominion idea just won't fly because it's several non contiguous territories and you'll have to cross French territory in order to link them up with infrastructure..
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West Africa was twice united as a single British colony despite intervening French territory. And this back in the 1800s. No reason it couldn't be united aftewards or continue to be united from then.
 
Dan1988

Dan1988

Some Bloke said:
If the POD's after 1900 I think we can rule out a Greater Australia with New Zealand and a Greater Canada plus the West Indies.
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Oh, one can still try - from as early as 1900 or as late as incorporating the West Indies Federation (or the current attempt with the Turks and Caicos Islands) into Canada.
 
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