How to advance pre-Columbian America?

The recent thread about how to get an earlier start to agriculture led me to start thinking about the continents that historically got left behind in the development of civilization--Australia and America.

Australia failed to start any major civilizations at all, probably due to lack of a good starter crop as Jared has covered in his excellent LoRaG. Without one relatively easy to domesticate species, no culture was able to invent agriculture and achieve the high population densities needed for large cities. But Australia is not what I am interested in, and Jared has covered that pretty well.

Instead, I am interested in America. It had a significant, agricultural population with many major cities and polities just prior to Columbus. The combined continents also have significant natural resources available for a sufficiently developed economy, though many of these would be difficult or impossible to reach for pre-industrialized states. Still, the resources that were available, especially forests and fertile land, rivaled anything available on other continents. Many of the inhabitants were reasonably technologically and scientifically sophisticated, keeping, for instance, detailed records of the sky and stellar movements. Still, a relative lack of suitable species for domestication, particularly those serving in a transport or labor role (what in Eurasia was filled by oxen, horses, etc.) combined with the late settlement of America and of course a lack of resistance to Eurasian diseases meant that America ended up being dominated by Eurasia, specifically Europe.

So, what could change this around a bit? Say, make America roughly equivalent in technology to Europe by 1500, without retarding European development? Biological PoDs (like, say, horses not going extinct in America) are allowed, and a butterfly net around America may be assumed; unless the change is something quite large, like a volcanic eruption or meteor impact, there will be minimal effects on the rest of the world.
 
I don't know how to leap the Natives right up to competitive level with Europe, but I just got through seeing a concept from EdT where the Vikings stayed in America a fair bit longer and more prosperously so that some members of the animals they brought (pigs, cows, and so forth) could escape, go into the wild and become common in America over the centuries like the horse would be when the Spanish arrived centuries later. The natives domesticated these animals and thus managed to develop further along.
 

Riain

Banned
Without stretching the realms of possibility too much I'd suggest an American version of the Silk Road between the Andean cultures and Mexican cultures, starting thousands of uyear before Columbus. I'm aware there are formidable obstacles and the exchange of ideas and particularly the export of llamas soon after their domestication could supercharge American development.
 
Without stretching the realms of possibility too much I'd suggest an American version of the Silk Road between the Andean cultures and Mexican cultures, starting thousands of uyear before Columbus. I'm aware there are formidable obstacles and the exchange of ideas and particularly the export of llamas soon after their domestication could supercharge American development.

Yeah, if you could somehow get llamas past the intervening tropical forest lowlands and to western Mexico that would make a huge difference. Llamas just didn't do well with the heat and humidity of the lowlands. That apparently wasn't true of all of the ice age species of llamas. Some of them seem to have done well in a variety of settings.

If you could get llamas to western Mexico they would probably spread to California and the Great Plains, allowing easier movement of goods and allowing the faster spread of innovations.

There was apparently an ongoing (at least sporadically) sea route from Ecuador to Western Mexico, both areas on the margins of their respective high-culture regions. That sea route is probably how copper and then bronze metallurgy spread from the Andes to Mexico.

BTW: A lot of you probably already know this, but I did a book on this sort of thing back in 2002. (American Indian Victories) It's getting a little hard to find, but it's still out there. I still have a few copies you can't find it anywhere else and are in the US.
 
Equivalent to Europe? That's hard, with the north-south axis and a continental mass much smaller than that of Eurasia-Africa. Diamond gave some very good reasons....

That said, the date of the start of agriculture seems somewhat arbitrary. Mesoamerica developed agriculture completely independently of the old world. Corn took thousands of years to develop, did potatoes? Why not give them an agricultural head-start?

Other ideas:
Carribbian Arawaks with a better navigational package (Bronze Age New World, great timeline)
Phoenician contact. Some people argue this is OTL.
 
Equivalent to Europe? That's hard, with the north-south axis and a continental mass much smaller than that of Eurasia-Africa. Diamond gave some very good reasons...

The real point is for America to be strong enough that there's no question of European colonization or conquest, at least until much later. Perhaps China or India level tech, then. And I suggested that you can have very large PoDs without screwing everything up, like altered mass extinctions--who needs llamas when you have horses?
 

Teleology

Banned
Why not have the Mississippians and other groups establish trade? With cornflour and manpower you basically have the stuff of Sumerian civilization (corn instead of wheat, but I'm guessing cornflour can last as long and thus be transported as far as regular flour?

With flour comes cities and division of labor, and from there you can get organized armies, roads, and empire.

If you have all the Amerindians contacting each other and intermarrying, the chances of getting some level of immunity to certain European diseases through sheer freak mutation is increased, isn't it? Plus with advancements in transportation and organization you have advancements in communication and media, which could allow some sort of quarantine process and system of vaccination to be used to survive the onslaught.

As far as technology, I really don't know how you can take agricultural city-states and come up with factorization just like that. Unless someone has some reason to develop watermills (hmm...all of that cornflour needed...).
 
I wish the Aurochs and Wild Boar had made it to the Americas. Beringia's climate fluctations meant that it could support the passage of Aurochs and Wild Boar but in OTL both creatures spread was stopped in southeast Siberia and Manchuria. If these two species had made it to the Americas its possible the Native Americans would've prefered to hunt these animals and perhaps the Horse would've survived in North America. If the domestication of Horses , Pigs and Cattle had taken place Native Americans would've been on their way to richer more complex societies as well as possibly more disease resistant populations.
 
The easiest thing to do to prevent European colonization would be to have polynesians introduce pigs and chickens early on to the Americas; have them develop 3-4 virulent diseases. So, when Europeans show up both sides get infected by virgin ground epidemics and between 60-80% of the world die. There would definitely not be European colonization.
 
The big issue is disease. Until the mid-to-late Industrial age, the Europeans simply wouldn't be able or willing to launch the major invasion necessary to conquer a major American society that can better withstand or cope with disease. That gives the natives at least four-hundred or so years to play catch up ;)

A good POD would be for important native leaders like Cuitlahuatzin, who drove the Spanish out of Tenōchtitlān. AFAIK, Cuitlahuatzin was a very able administrator and military leader. IOTL he died of smallpox, something of a random divergence. It'd be easy and believable to simply say he doesn't die of the pox.

Another important POD could be to have Narváez defeat Cortés, who had come on the orders of Governor Velázquez not only to supersede Cortés, but to arrest him and bring him to trial in Cuba for insubordination, mutiny, and treason. Having Cortés die, or simply be arrested, would significantly change history, and most likely give the native societies a much better chance than IOTL.

I focus on the Mexica ('Aztecs') so much because a big part of the push by the European powers to explore, conquer and colonize the Americas was the Spanish suddenly become rich from taking down a major Mesoamerican society. Legends of 'cities of gold' played a large part in European penetration in the Americas well into the 19th century. If you stop that flow of history before it can really get rolling, you'll go a long way towards advancing pre-Columbia Americas, without a major change to early American societies :cool:
 
The easiest thing to do to prevent European colonization would be to have polynesians introduce pigs and chickens early on to the Americas; have them develop 3-4 virulent diseases. So, when Europeans show up both sides get infected by virgin ground epidemics and between 60-80% of the world die. There would definitely not be European colonization.

Wasn't the Turkey already domesticated?
 
Dogs are domesticated, everywhere :rolleyes: They don't really count.

I've never heard of deer or coatis being domesticated by natives. Links, or references? :D

He said "possibly...to a minor extent...as pets" People have made all sorts of damn fool things their pets, you wouldn't believe that people had pet tigers and lions unless you heard about it on the news, would you? At least a deer is less likely to eat you...
 
True... which is why I'd like to see a link or something. I've never read or heard of native americans domesticating deer or coatis, even to a minor extent. If its true then it really changes a lot of things about the natives (in some ways).
 
Wasn't the Turkey already domesticated?
true, but it appears that all of the Native American domesticated animals are terrible creators of disease. I mean Andean peoples were almost sleeping with llamas for thousands of years, and we've got no diseases. Pigs and chickens are extremely good at giving humans diseases.

And (possibly) deer and coatis to a minor extent (as pets).
I wouldn't call them domesticated so much as semi-domesticated.
 
true, but it appears that all of the Native American domesticated animals are terrible creators of disease. I mean Andean peoples were almost sleeping with llamas for thousands of years, and we've got no diseases. Pigs and chickens are extremely good at giving humans diseases.

I wouldn't call them domesticated so much as semi-domesticated.

Well, maybe the better thing to do is to wipe out pigs and chickens? Have them go extinct at some point long before they're domesticated. That way no one gets (as) sick.
 
I think it would be easier just not to introduce the Chicken. The Pig is far more difficult and pretty much impossible. But honestly getting diseases is pretty useful in the long run as it boosts immunity. So I think earlier introduction of the Pig and Chicken as well as the Cow would be the best bet for bettering Native American's longterm chances at survival.
 
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