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Old July 26th, 2010, 03:28 PM
PrairieVoice PrairieVoice is offline
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Could the Holocaust been avoided?

Or at least toned down?

I've had some thoughts that maybe if the allies had read the intel coming out and warned the Nazis of reprisals and war crime trials of those involved plus possibly threatening civilian populations?

How about if Jewish organizations had prepared and been armed when the Nazis came maybe they could have taken more of them out? Say an earlier or more deadly Warsaw uprising?

Any thoughts?
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Old July 26th, 2010, 03:30 PM
Astrodragon Astrodragon is offline
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Originally Posted by PrairieVoice View Post
Or at least toned down?

I've had some thoughts that maybe if the allies had read the intel coming out and warned the Nazis of reprisals and war crime trials of those involved plus possibly threatening civilian populations?

How about if Jewish organizations had prepared and been armed when the Nazis came maybe they could have taken more of them out? Say an earlier or more deadly Warsaw uprising?

Any thoughts?
Doubt it.
They didnt really get going until they thought they were winning - so why worry, if YOU expect to be the people holding the war crimes trials...?
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Old July 26th, 2010, 03:41 PM
cbr cbr is offline
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The Warsaw uprising happened when it did because the were close enough to help, the plan was for the entire thing to last only a few days until the Red Army would enter the city and help out, turned out the russians had no intention of helping out and intentionally stopped their attack on the city so that the germans could put the uprising down. An earlier uprising would be counterproductive from a polish perspective, since the russians would be further away.
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Old July 26th, 2010, 03:44 PM
Wolfpaw Wolfpaw is offline
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Originally Posted by PrairieVoice View Post
Or at least toned down?

I've had some thoughts that maybe if the allies had read the intel coming out and warned the Nazis of reprisals and war crime trials of those involved plus possibly threatening civilian populations?

How about if Jewish organizations had prepared and been armed when the Nazis came maybe they could have taken more of them out? Say an earlier or more deadly Warsaw uprising?

Any thoughts?
The Holocaust could have been avoided. Firstly if the Nazis weren't a bunch of psychopathic anti-Semites, Slavophobes, anti-Ziganists, homophobes, etc., etc.

Or the Nazis could follow their original plan of "encouraging" Jews to emigrate (the Madagascar Plan, for example. Actually, Eichmann was sent to Palestine early in his career to see whether or not the place was "fit for Jewish resettlement"). Mind, this probably wouldn't have prevented the majority of atrocities committed against Jews on the Eastern Front during the War, but it probably would have spared Western Jewry.

The war crimes thing wouldn't have scared the Nazis since they thought that they could win. A majority of death camp guards and officials were devoted Nazis who thought that victory was inevitable, so why worry about the empty threats from the Allies? This could, however, encourage people like Keitel and Jodl to defect or surrender or clandestinely work to cease atrocities, not that these efforts would necessarily be successful.

No matter how many more guns or grenades or whatever Jewish organizations could scrape together to defend themselves, its not going to do a whole lot to help them against panzers. Sure, they might be able to put up fights for a bit longer, but they'll still lose in the end, and it's likely that the reprisals will be much worse (not that they would trump going to death camps, but still).
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Old July 26th, 2010, 03:50 PM
mdc_1957 mdc_1957 is offline
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I guess the only way to avoid it is if the conditions after WWI didn't spur the sort of Antisemitism that helped the Nazis garner support. Maybe Versailles wasn't as torturous to the former Central Powers as OTL. It would have to be long before 1933.
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  #6  
Old July 26th, 2010, 03:57 PM
altamiro altamiro is offline
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Doubt it.
They didnt really get going until they thought they were winning - so why worry, if YOU expect to be the people holding the war crimes trials...?
This is actually not correct.
Holocaust only got going full scale in early 1942 - when the dreams of quick victory in Russia were squelched, invasions of Britain (and Switzerland) were called off due to overstretch, and the morale in the population was generally sinking.

One hypothesis is that Holocaust was really got going because Nazis were losing - implicating major parts of the population in obvious crimes, and then making clear that "we would hang if they win", might (in Hitler's mind) provide a morale boost - and possibly turn the tide.

However, the main reason why Holocaust happened as it did was, in my eyes, an immediate effect of how the NSDAP was set up - all the Generalgouverneurs, Gauleiters etc. jockeying for Hitler's attention and trying to outdo each other in all areas that might get his approval, including supporting his most absurd ideas. The system was repeated on lower levels, so a pyramid of "obedience in advance" (vorauseilender Gehorsam) led to a gradual radicalization of ANY idea that was thrown in.

Have somebody fail early in an attempt to deport Jews to a ghetto, or better have a few failures in short period (mass breakout, or simply something like a conflict between the Wehrmacht and SS for train capacity in which the SS loses face) and Hitler will turn his attention to something else.
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Old July 26th, 2010, 04:01 PM
Kelenas Kelenas is offline
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Versaille didn't have much to do with german antisemitism, really. IIRC Germany was originally rather tolerant of Jews (for its time, that is), and it was mostly the Nazis who whipped Germany into an antisemitic frenzy with propaganda.
If you want a WWII without Holocaust, you'd either have to bring a different faction in Germany to power, or need to significantly change the Nazi's racial ideology.
The latter is difficult, but the former should be relatively easy in comparison. The question would only be who replaces them.

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Old July 26th, 2010, 04:06 PM
mdc_1957 mdc_1957 is offline
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Versaille didn't have much to do with german antisemitism, really. IIRC Germany was originally rather tolerant of Jews (for its time, that is), and it was mostly the Nazis who whipped Germany into an antisemitic frenzy with propaganda.
If you want a WWII without Holocaust, you'd either have to bring a different faction in Germany to power, or need to significantly change the Nazi's racial ideology.
The latter is difficult, but the former should be relatively easy in comparison. The question would only be who replaces them.

- Kelenas
The other main options are either the existing Weimar authorities or the Royalists still loyal to the exiled Kaiser. It would have to mean that either the government becomes more stable or that the Germans express a desire for constitutional monarchy (which is unlikely). It was either them or the Communists, which wouldn't have been better.
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  #9  
Old July 26th, 2010, 04:46 PM
BlairWitch749 BlairWitch749 is offline
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Todt not being dead would help... he was vocal in keeping all the jews alive for slave labor, whereas speer was rather indifferent
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Old July 26th, 2010, 05:22 PM
aktarian aktarian is offline
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Originally Posted by Wolfpaw View Post
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]The Holocaust could have been avoided. Firstly if the Nazis weren't a bunch of psychopathic anti-Semites, Slavophobes, anti-Ziganists, homophobes, etc., etc.
In other words if they weren't Nazis

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Or the Nazis could follow their original plan of "encouraging" Jews to emigrate (the Madagascar Plan, for example. Actually, Eichmann was sent to Palestine early in his career to see whether or not the place was "fit for Jewish resettlement"). Mind, this probably wouldn't have prevented the majority of atrocities committed against Jews on the Eastern Front during the War, but it probably would have spared Western Jewry.
Move where, exactly? Nobody wanted them in large numbers and countries were closing their borders to them. After war breaks out any resetlement outside Europe (that includes Palestine) becomes moot point due to RN blockade.
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  #11  
Old July 26th, 2010, 05:28 PM
SPQR SPQR is offline
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Yes, if Hitler and his clique decided to postpone the Holocaust till the end of the war and German victory. Germany loses as in OTL, the Allied forces would have found most of the jews in their ghettos and the rest in work camps.
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Old July 26th, 2010, 05:57 PM
Onkel Willie Onkel Willie is offline
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A victory in 1940 (Dunkirk?) could also do the trick. That would allow for the Jews to emigrate again (if anybody wants to take them in).
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Old July 26th, 2010, 06:05 PM
Polish Eagle Polish Eagle is offline
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The Warsaw uprising happened when it did because the were close enough to help, the plan was for the entire thing to last only a few days until the Red Army would enter the city and help out, turned out the russians had no intention of helping out and intentionally stopped their attack on the city so that the germans could put the uprising down. An earlier uprising would be counterproductive from a polish perspective, since the russians would be further away.
He's talking about the 1943 Uprising, which was basically the Jews of Warsaw deciding to take as many Germans down with them as possible.

To prevent the Holocaust, you'd need to change Nazi ideology from the start, possibly to focus on the Bolshevik side of Judeo-Bolshevism. You'd need to turn the Nazis into basically an Anti-Communist Only party, with little or no focus on Jews or Slavs. How can this be done?
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Old July 26th, 2010, 06:06 PM
aktarian aktarian is offline
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A victory in 1940 (Dunkirk?) could also do the trick. That would allow for the Jews to emigrate again (if anybody wants to take them in).
A large migration from country you just fought a war with. Yes, that will go down well, I think....
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Old July 26th, 2010, 06:08 PM
aktarian aktarian is offline
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Originally Posted by Polish Eagle View Post
He's talking about the 1943 Uprising, which was basically the Jews of Warsaw deciding to take as many Germans down with them as possible.

To prevent the Holocaust, you'd need to change Nazi ideology from the start, possibly to focus on the Bolshevik side of Judeo-Bolshevism. You'd need to turn the Nazis into basically an Anti-Communist Only party, with little or no focus on Jews or Slavs. How can this be done?
Wasn't this more or less the point of Weimar German right? Anti-communists, nationalists but not rabidly so. Marginalize NSDAP and have some other party rise to prominence
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Old July 26th, 2010, 06:09 PM
BlairWitch749 BlairWitch749 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polish Eagle View Post
He's talking about the 1943 Uprising, which was basically the Jews of Warsaw deciding to take as many Germans down with them as possible.

To prevent the Holocaust, you'd need to change Nazi ideology from the start, possibly to focus on the Bolshevik side of Judeo-Bolshevism. You'd need to turn the Nazis into basically an Anti-Communist Only party, with little or no focus on Jews or Slavs. How can this be done?
Why? the Germans held the reigns of power in Germany for 8 years before the final solution? If it was an absolute goal of the party, it would have happened in the 30's... there where a lot of differing opinions on how to "handle" the jews even as late at '43

If you keep todt alive, and have the Goering-Himmler split earlier, you could see a strong cabal being seriously opposed to the holocaust and in turn favoring slave labor
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Old July 26th, 2010, 06:27 PM
Wolfpaw Wolfpaw is offline
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In other words if they weren't Nazis
Well, that would avoid the Holocaust, now wouldn't it
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Move where, exactly? Nobody wanted them in large numbers and countries were closing their borders to them. After war breaks out any resetlement outside Europe (that includes Palestine) becomes moot point due to RN blockade.
I was referencing the pre-War and post-War periods; I should have made that clear.

This of course depends on lots of things. Pre-War the Germans didn't give a damn where Jews emigrated so long as it was outside "Greater Germany." The Madagascar Plan was to be put into effect once the British and French surrendered, after which the German, French, and British navies would have transported the Jews to that lemur-ridden isle.

Palestine could just be another place the Germans could dump its Jews prior to the War. Perhaps during negotiations with the Allies (Munich or a similar sort of conference) the Germans make their conditions include the British setting aside land in Palestine for a Jewish homeland. That might not be too hard to pull off actually since it would likely solve "The Jewish Question" for most of Europe, including Britain and France (which weren't necessarily the most philo-Semitic of countries).
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Old July 26th, 2010, 06:43 PM
aktarian aktarian is offline
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Well, that would avoid the Holocaust, now wouldn't it
True but OP set this in Nazi Germany


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Originally Posted by Wolfpaw View Post
I was referencing the pre-War and post-War periods; I should have made that clear.

This of course depends on lots of things. Pre-War the Germans didn't give a damn where Jews emigrated so long as it was outside "Greater Germany." The Madagascar Plan was to be put into effect once the British and French surrendered, after which the German, French, and British navies would have transported the Jews to that lemur-ridden isle.

Palestine could just be another place the Germans could dump its Jews prior to the War. Perhaps during negotiations with the Allies (Munich or a similar sort of conference) the Germans make their conditions include the British setting aside land in Palestine for a Jewish homeland. That might not be too hard to pull off actually since it would likely solve "The Jewish Question" for most of Europe, including Britain and France (which weren't necessarily the most philo-Semitic of countries).
Except that Palestine was under British control and they were having enough troubles with Jews that were there and as such not likely to be willing to send even more there.

And as for holding a conference about Jewish migration, well....
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Old July 26th, 2010, 06:58 PM
Wolfpaw Wolfpaw is offline
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Except that Palestine was under British control and they were having enough troubles with Jews that were there and as such not likely to be willing to send even more there.

And as for holding a conference about Jewish migration, well....
Then the Germans make it one of their conditions for further negotiations with the British. I mean, Palestine was already an ulcer in the 30s, had very little strategic value, and was basically only kept because the British won it and national pride prevented them from giving it back.

Maybe just have the Germans press this at the Evian Conference. International pressure might be brought to bear on Britain and make them out to be the bad guys, which could muddle things up for the anti-German front.

I'm not saying any of this is at all likely, but then, neither is a Nazi Germany that doesn't have homocidal tendencies towards Jews.
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Old July 26th, 2010, 07:05 PM
Snowstalker Snowstalker is online now
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If they get a negotiated peace with Britain in 1940, the Madagascar Plan might be enacted. It's still horrible ethnic cleansing, but it's at least better than mass killings in concentration camps.
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