Napoleon Gets his Global Empire

Dunash

Banned
"I have a feeling that one day someone born on the little island of Corsica will astonish the world" portended Rousseau, seven years before Napoleon's birth! What single battle, series of battles or plausible scenario would it have taken for Bonaparte to get his global empire, & achieve his goal to make Paris the center of the world, and from there to diseminate his brand of despotic, nepotistic, totalitarian "enlightenment".
 
If he could preserve/rebuild the navy and win at Nile and Trafalgar that would go a long way. In addition don't put Joseph on the throne in Spain and finally work it out with Russia.
 

Faeelin

Banned
If he can subdue Britain, he's unassailable. Without the cavalry of St. George, no one can afford to fight France. He'll probably fight a war of 1812 to reclaim louisiana, and probably win.

Whether or not he can subdue latin america is an interesting question.

My personal feeling is that the best way to get the bonaparist empire is to replace bonaparte with, say, hoche. Relatively jacobin, passionate foe of Britain.

And how is he more despotic, than say, the Czar or the hapsburgs?
 
"He'll probably fight a war of 1812 to reclaim louisiana, and probably win"

Though Napoleon was a genius, he'd be fighting a war at the end of a 3,000-mile long supply chain, w/ limited forces that'll be difficult to reinforce (he could recruit Indians, but the US still has a larger population than the Indian tribes of the region). Where would his forward bases be? Haiti? Owing to the diseases and the guerrilla resistance, using Haiti as a base would be a very bad idea.

If Napoleon manages to invade Britain, wouldn't the British leadership and military flee to Canada? If so, they'd gladly come down the Mississippi to help the US out against some sort of Napoleonic invasion. The Spanish-monarchy-in-exile in Latin America would probably help out too.

Methinks the end result would be Waterloo in the Western Hemisphere.
 
I've always wondered what would have happened if Napoleon marche towards St. Petersburg instead. After all it was the capital, it was much closer, the are had better weather, the population was friendlier and he could partly supply his army by sea.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Matt Quinn said:
"He'll probably fight a war of 1812 to reclaim louisiana, and probably win"

Though Napoleon was a genius, he'd be fighting a war at the end of a 3,000-mile long supply chain, w/ limited forces that'll be difficult to reinforce (he could recruit Indians, but the US still has a larger population than the Indian tribes of the region). Where would his forward bases be? Haiti? Owing to the diseases and the guerrilla resistance, using Haiti as a base would be a very bad idea.

Napoleon, as master of europe, has a fleet that's the size of Britain's, and he also has an army that is, by this point, the best in the world.

Bear in mind also that Britain fought the war of 1812 when it was fighting a war in Spain. Bonaparte, in contrast, has no such problems, and may very well have grabbed Canada back from England.

Matt Quinn said:
If Napoleon manages to invade Britain, wouldn't the British leadership and military flee to Canada? If so, they'd gladly come down the Mississippi to help the US out against some sort of Napoleonic invasion. The Spanish-monarchy-in-exile in Latin America would probably help out too.

Canada of 1805 is not the canada of 1940. It's small and poor, compared to england. If the king does flee there, it merely provides the pretext for bonaparte to grab it.

This presupposes he has the fleet to do that, but if he can take Britain, he does.

Matt Quinn said:
Methinks the end result would be Waterloo in the Western Hemisphere.

Except Waterloo was the last effort of Bonaparte, after he'd bee n kicked out of France, and this is an invasion force designed to subde the americas.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Peter said:
I've always wondered what would have happened if Napoleon marche towards St. Petersburg instead. After all it was the capital, it was much closer, the are had better weather, the population was friendlier and he could partly supply his army by sea.

Well, the problem is that bonaparte didn't want moscow per se; he wanted to defeat the tsar's armies and convince him to rejoin the continental system and march on india.

And he can't operate in the baltic, because, as he said, "wherever you find water you'll find an english ship".
 
Faeelin said:
Well, the problem is that bonaparte didn't want moscow per se; he wanted to defeat the tsar's armies and convince him to rejoin the continental system and march on india.

So why did he conquer it?
 
Did Napoleon have plans to invade Britain? I thought the plans he had involved lots of smaller craft (like what China might try with Taiwan); a "navy" like that would be good for a short-range move, but not for a long-distance invasion of the Western Hemisphere. If he's smart, he can distract the British fleet w/ attacks on the periphery; peel away enough ships from defending the homeland, perhaps have agents set off an Irish rising, and then when the time's right, slip the Grand Armee across the channel in a few hundred small boats and voila.

If Nappy can win on land before the Royal Navy and colonial forces come back to defend the homeland, what's the RN to do? Surrender? Heck no. I imagine they'd flee to Canada or some of the islands and become anti-French pirates. Canada, defended by what's left of the Royal Navy and probably with American assistance, could be defeated to take, even if if it's poor and underpopulated.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Matt Quinn said:
Did Napoleon have plans to invade Britain? I thought the plans he had involved lots of smaller craft (like what China might try with Taiwan); a "navy" like that would be good for a short-range move, but not for a long-distance invasion of the Western Hemisphere. If he's smart, he can distract the British fleet w/ attacks on the periphery; peel away enough ships from defending the homeland, perhaps have agents set off an Irish rising, and then when the time's right, slip the Grand Armee across the channel in a few hundred small boats and voila.

He tried all sorts of ways; there was an attempt to use transports that were small, which was turned down when itrealized they would sink; there was a plan to use latouche to distract the british byattacking theperiphery, and that also failed.

You see, the British were not fools.

"Before the French could invade, they must remove the Royal Navy from the channel, if only briefly. To achieve this, there would need to be fifty or more ships of the Line in the Channel.

The plan was for the main Toulon squadron, under Admiral Villeneuve to run through the Straits, join the squadron form Rochhefort, under Missiessy, and meanwhile, from Brest would sail Ganteaume, with 18,000 troops for Ireland.

This plan was scrapped when it was pointed out that the seventeen sail of the line would not be enough to cover the invasion.

The new plan had Missiessy’s squadron escaping from Rochefort, which it did on January 11, 1804. The British blockading squadron was blown off-station, and he made a break for it.


Meanwhile, Napoleon had entered into alliance with France, by providing him with subsidies. Pitt’s response was to attack the treasure ships from South America. The ships of the line did not arrive, but the four British frigates managed to capture 3 of the 4 Spanish treasure ships on in October. in December, Spain declared war on Britain.

This altered the naval balance. With Cadiz and Cartagena, as well as Ferrol, Corunna, and Vigo, the French had bases on the Atlantic. More dangerous were the thirty Spanish ships of the line, divided between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean. There were also twenty-one ships of the line at Brest, six at Rochefort and eleven at Toulon.

Now came the final plan. Villeneuve was to evade Nelson, which he did on 29 March, 1805. Nelson sailed for Alexandria, believing that the French fleet was heading for Egypt. Villeneuve had made his break.

But the Admiralty had enough ships to meet any contingency. There were twelve ships of the line with Nelson, six off of Cadiz with Sir John Orde, eight off of Ferrol with Vice-Admiral Robert Calder, Cornwallis, commanding seventeen fleets off of the French Atlantic ports, and Lord Keith in the channel with eleven ships. The British, then, had 46 ships of the line at sea. Additional ships were ordered to sea as well.

Whenever the French evaded Britain's fleet, the fleet withdrew to the channel. You do not become the greatest maritime natoin on the planet without knowing how to preventmartime invasions.


Matt Quinn said:
If Nappy can win on land before the Royal Navy and colonial forces come back to defend the homeland, what's the RN to do? Surrender? Heck no. I imagine they'd flee to Canada or some of the islands and become anti-French pirates. Canada, defended by what's left of the Royal Navy and probably with American assistance, could be defeated to take, even if if it's poor and underpopulated.

Matt, what do you think Bonaparte will do to Britain? And if your RN is so large, why can't it stop bonaparte from leaving ireland?

Not to say an invason of england is impossible; it's not sealion. But it needs work.
 
"Matt, what do you think Bonaparte will do to Britain? And if your RN is so large, why can't it stop bonaparte from leaving ireland?"

Well, I'd heard that Nappy wanted to make his brother Jerome King of England. I imagine there'd be judicious guillotining. Probably some "republican" measures.

MY RN? I thought the RN was huge. If they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, however (the periphery plan), a good enough land force might be able to slip through. Then what? Britain has fallen, but enough of the RN exists to be a thorn in Napoleon's side.

My plan doesn't involve Napoleon himself in Ireland; owing to his ego, he'd probably want to lead the "Army of England" into Britain himself. One or two ships of arms and "volunteers" might be enough to set Ireland ablaze and peel a few regiments from England. Then, with the RN dispersed and much of Britain's "Homeland Defense" force in Ireland, Nappy gathers his army of mini-transports and any ships-of-the-line he get can and goes for an all-or-nothing assault.
 
Wouldn't England realise that somthing is up when all the sudden theirs heavy attacks on their colonies and a rebellion in Ireland? I mean if i was England I would just boost my defence. I think what France would need to do is lay low for couple of years once they are dominate of the continent. England would try their best to avoid war with a continental power as it threatens one of their most important trading partners. France would then only have to lull England into a neutral state by helping them out here and their. Once things are back to normal, and more importantly the RN is more evenly disperesed to the colonies, strike hard and fast. That is the only way i see France defeating England.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Peter said:
So why did he conquer it?

Because boney's original plan was to defeat the Russian army on the Polish border, get a peace, and then that'd be it.

The Russians retreated. And retreated. And retreated. And each time Boney came close to his encirclement, he failed. Eventually he hoped that the tsar would surrender if he took moscow.
 

Faeelin

Banned
LDoc said:
Wouldn't England realise that somthing is up when all the sudden theirs heavy attacks on their colonies and a rebellion in Ireland? I mean if i was England I would just boost my defence. I think what France would need to do is lay low for couple of years once they are dominate of the continent. England would try their best to avoid war with a continental power as it threatens one of their most important trading partners. France would then only have to lull England into a neutral state by helping them out here and their. Once things are back to normal, and more importantly the RN is more evenly disperesed to the colonies, strike hard and fast. That is the only way i see France defeating England.

France tried this. The British response was to break the peace of amiens.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Matt Quinn said:
"Matt, what do you think Bonaparte will do to Britain? And if your RN is so large, why can't it stop bonaparte from leaving ireland?"

Matt Quinn said:
Well, I'd heard that Nappy wanted to make his brother Jerome King of England. I imagine there'd be judicious guillotining. Probably some "republican" measures.

I dunno; he's got an army stranded in england, then. I suspect an occupation army, the confiscation of colonies, disbanding the RN, would do. Then a few years later grab it all.

Matt Quinn said:
MY RN? I thought the RN was huge. If they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, however (the periphery plan), a good enough land force might be able to slip through. Then what? Britain has fallen, but enough of the RN exists to be a thorn in Napoleon's side.

Well, how long will it take Boney to subdue Britannia? It's quite possible that he gets the island, but then the RN cuts him off, embarrasingly. Meanwhile guerillas are constantly draining his men, and he ends up surrending to the sepoy general.

Matt Quinn said:
My plan doesn't involve Napoleon himself in Ireland; owing to his ego, he'd probably want to lead the "Army of England" into Britain himself. One or two ships of arms and "volunteers" might be enough to set Ireland ablaze and peel a few regiments from England. Then, with the RN dispersed and much of Britain's "Homeland Defense" force in Ireland, Nappy gathers his army of mini-transports and any ships-of-the-line he get can and goes for an all-or-nothing assault.

The French tried that under Hoche. There _was_ a big irish rebellion in 1798, but perfidious albion's navy stopped the french from helping.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Okay, discuss. It's 1811; Britain is under Jerome, Louis is in Holland, Joseph is in spain, and the grande armee is everywhere.

How does the French century play out?
 

Valamyr

Banned
Faeelin said:
Well, how long will it take Boney to subdue Britannia? It's quite possible that he gets the island, but then the RN cuts him off, embarrasingly. Meanwhile guerillas are constantly draining his men, and he ends up surrending to the sepoy general.QUOTE]

LOL. I know you are quite a strong defender of Britain's invincibility but might be pushing it a little dont you think? Sure invading the islands would be difficult, but once Napoleon's army is on land, the odds that they could be pushed back are extremely low. The Grande Armée would not need to muster much of its strength to crush the nonexistant inland defenses, after all.

And in these years, an army could still live of the land rather well.
 

Faeelin

Banned
But it couldn't get reinforcements. See: Egypt.

If by Defending Britain's invincibility you mean I've looked at the information on the naval strenghts of the poewrs and their plans for invasion, then yes, I am a defender of Britain's invincibility.
 

Straha

Banned
canada nad the british carribean with their garrisons decide to join up with america because they have a common heritage of culture.
 

Valamyr

Banned
Lol, no need to feel attacked. It wasnt my intention, and im well aware youre generally well informed on the topic.

But I think that the British navy would have a hard time operating in the channel once the ports on both sides are in french hands. No?
 
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