Edward II dies before Edward I's death
- Thread starter Douglas
- Start date
Short Answer:
Thomas of Brotherton, 1st Earl of Norfolk was next in line (I go this off a quick search on wiki)
Long Live King Thomas I!
Where this would leave English history I'm not sure. I can't find much info on how effective a King he would have made. It would probably butterfly Bannockburn away so England may be able to hold on to Scotland long enough to start assimilating it to a significant degree as happened in Wales
Thomas of Brotherton, 1st Earl of Norfolk was next in line (I go this off a quick search on wiki)
Long Live King Thomas I!
Where this would leave English history I'm not sure. I can't find much info on how effective a King he would have made. It would probably butterfly Bannockburn away so England may be able to hold on to Scotland long enough to start assimilating it to a significant degree as happened in Wales
Grey Wolf
Donor
Well he would certainly be a better king than Edward II!
If Edward I dies in 1307 with no surviving son from his first marriage it is possible that the marriages of his daughters from his first marriage would be seen as a way to advance a rival to the sons of his second marriage, if enough powerful interests were to coalesce around them.
Whilst primogeniture is the rule, it would not be impossible in the times for some prelate to declare the second marriage illegal in some way to promote the interests of a rival. Thus the lines of Bar, Brabant and Bohun may think they have a shot at the crown.
The Bar heir is the eldest grandson of Edward I, Edward I Count of Bar, but is only 13 and his parents are dead, so it is probable he is either a ward of the crown, or sitting in Bar surrounded by local nobles who have no interest in England.
The Brabant heir is John born in 1300, and his father John II Duke of Brabant is very much alive, and could contest the throne for his son's interests.
Humphrey de Bohun 4th Earl of Hereford has to be one of the greatest magnates in the land, and his son John was born in 1306. He is in a strong position to play an important role in any succession crisis, but with his son an infant in these times its a very dangerous game, so he would probably back one or other of the main contenders.
Gilbert de Clare, 9th Earl of Gloucester is the remaining grandson with a chance, and would be old enough at 16 to be viable. Again it would depend on whether any party formed around him.
However, the Norfolk/Kent interests are probably too strong for this, especially if the French king supports his nephew (half-nephew?)
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
If Edward I dies in 1307 with no surviving son from his first marriage it is possible that the marriages of his daughters from his first marriage would be seen as a way to advance a rival to the sons of his second marriage, if enough powerful interests were to coalesce around them.
Whilst primogeniture is the rule, it would not be impossible in the times for some prelate to declare the second marriage illegal in some way to promote the interests of a rival. Thus the lines of Bar, Brabant and Bohun may think they have a shot at the crown.
The Bar heir is the eldest grandson of Edward I, Edward I Count of Bar, but is only 13 and his parents are dead, so it is probable he is either a ward of the crown, or sitting in Bar surrounded by local nobles who have no interest in England.
The Brabant heir is John born in 1300, and his father John II Duke of Brabant is very much alive, and could contest the throne for his son's interests.
Humphrey de Bohun 4th Earl of Hereford has to be one of the greatest magnates in the land, and his son John was born in 1306. He is in a strong position to play an important role in any succession crisis, but with his son an infant in these times its a very dangerous game, so he would probably back one or other of the main contenders.
Gilbert de Clare, 9th Earl of Gloucester is the remaining grandson with a chance, and would be old enough at 16 to be viable. Again it would depend on whether any party formed around him.
However, the Norfolk/Kent interests are probably too strong for this, especially if the French king supports his nephew (half-nephew?)
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
If Edward II dies before 1307 (date of Edward I's death), then he doesn't marry Isabelle of France, daughter of King Philipp IV of France, as he had married her in 1308 OTL. Thus, there will be no Edward III and no Hundred Years' War.
If we applied the English rule of succession, then here is the order of succession at Edward I's death :
1.Thomas of Brotherton, count of Norfolk - A son born to Edward I in 1300 from his second marriage with Margaret of France. He is 7 years old at the time of Edward I's death.
2.Edmond of Woodstock, count of Kent - The second son born to Edward I and Margaret of France. He is 6 years old.
3.Edward I, count of Bar - Son of Eleanor, Edward I's eldest daughter. He is 13 years old, being born in 1294.
4.Eleanor of Bar - Daughter of Eleanor and sister of Edward I of Bar. She is 12.
5.Joan of Bar -Second daughter of Eleanor and sister of Edward I of Bar. She is 12.
6.Gilbert de Clare, 8th Earl of Gloucester - Eldest son of Joan of Acre, second daughter of Edward I. He is currently 16.
7.Thomas de Monthermer - Eldest son from Joan of Acre's second marriage (he is thus Gilbert de Clare's half brother). He is 6 years old.
8.Edward de Monthermer - Second son of Joan of Acre's second marriage. He is 3 years old.
9.Eleanor de Clare - Eldest daughter of Joan of Acre and younger sister of Gilbert de Clare. She is 15.
10.Margaret de Clare - Second daughter of Joan of Acre. She is 14.
11.Elizabeth de Clare - Third daughter of Joan of Acre and her last child from her fist marriage. She is 12.
12.Mary de Monthermer - Eldest daughter of Joan of Acre's second marriage. She is 10 years old and fianced to Duncan Macduff, 8th Earl of Fife.
13.Joan de Monthermer - Second daughter of Joan of Acre's second marriage. She became a nun and is 8 years old when Edward I dies.
14.Margaret - Third daughter of Edward I. She is 32 and married to John II of Brabant.
15.John III, Duke of Brabant - Margaret's son. He is 7.
16.Mary - Fourth daughter of Edward I. She is 28 and a nun.
17.Elizabeth of Rhuddlan - Fifth daughter of Edward I. She is 25 and married to Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford.
18.John de Bohun, 5th Earl of Hereford - Son of Elizabeth of Rhuddlan. He is only 1 year old.
19.Lady Eleanor de Bohun - Daughter of Elizabeth of Rhuddlan. She is only 3.
20.Eleanor - Only daughter of Edward I and Margaret of France. She is only 1 year old. She died in 1310 OTL.
Considering this, the count of Norfolk will probably be crowned King as he is the first in line. Yet, as he is only 7 at the time of Edward I's death, he will rule under regency, maybe of his mother (whose brother is the King of France Philipp IV).
It also appears that many of the candidates to the throne are minors...
If we applied the English rule of succession, then here is the order of succession at Edward I's death :
1.Thomas of Brotherton, count of Norfolk - A son born to Edward I in 1300 from his second marriage with Margaret of France. He is 7 years old at the time of Edward I's death.
2.Edmond of Woodstock, count of Kent - The second son born to Edward I and Margaret of France. He is 6 years old.
3.Edward I, count of Bar - Son of Eleanor, Edward I's eldest daughter. He is 13 years old, being born in 1294.
4.Eleanor of Bar - Daughter of Eleanor and sister of Edward I of Bar. She is 12.
5.Joan of Bar -Second daughter of Eleanor and sister of Edward I of Bar. She is 12.
6.Gilbert de Clare, 8th Earl of Gloucester - Eldest son of Joan of Acre, second daughter of Edward I. He is currently 16.
7.Thomas de Monthermer - Eldest son from Joan of Acre's second marriage (he is thus Gilbert de Clare's half brother). He is 6 years old.
8.Edward de Monthermer - Second son of Joan of Acre's second marriage. He is 3 years old.
9.Eleanor de Clare - Eldest daughter of Joan of Acre and younger sister of Gilbert de Clare. She is 15.
10.Margaret de Clare - Second daughter of Joan of Acre. She is 14.
11.Elizabeth de Clare - Third daughter of Joan of Acre and her last child from her fist marriage. She is 12.
12.Mary de Monthermer - Eldest daughter of Joan of Acre's second marriage. She is 10 years old and fianced to Duncan Macduff, 8th Earl of Fife.
13.Joan de Monthermer - Second daughter of Joan of Acre's second marriage. She became a nun and is 8 years old when Edward I dies.
14.Margaret - Third daughter of Edward I. She is 32 and married to John II of Brabant.
15.John III, Duke of Brabant - Margaret's son. He is 7.
16.Mary - Fourth daughter of Edward I. She is 28 and a nun.
17.Elizabeth of Rhuddlan - Fifth daughter of Edward I. She is 25 and married to Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford.
18.John de Bohun, 5th Earl of Hereford - Son of Elizabeth of Rhuddlan. He is only 1 year old.
19.Lady Eleanor de Bohun - Daughter of Elizabeth of Rhuddlan. She is only 3.
20.Eleanor - Only daughter of Edward I and Margaret of France. She is only 1 year old. She died in 1310 OTL.
Considering this, the count of Norfolk will probably be crowned King as he is the first in line. Yet, as he is only 7 at the time of Edward I's death, he will rule under regency, maybe of his mother (whose brother is the King of France Philipp IV).
It also appears that many of the candidates to the throne are minors...
Edmund died in 1296, so he's out. You may be thinking of his sons Henry and Thomas, who would have been 26 and 29 respectively in 1307.
Thomas of Lancaster would definitely be the most likely regent. He could even make a play for the throne himself, given that the only other adult male royal is Henry.
Grey Wolf
Donor
Yes, funny how between thinking one thing and writing it the brain goes wibbly and throws out gibberish! I checked the age of his eldest son and in so doing my brain called him by his father's name...
A regent doesn't have to be royal tho, wasn't William Marshal regent for a time?
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
He was, but he had practically legendary status by that point. In the absence of such a notable figure I dare say a royal would be the most obvious choice.
Grey Wolf said:
This is the reason why I said "many of the candidates" instead of "all the candidates". In the list of the twenty pretenders by order of succession I gave, excepting Gilbert de Clare, his sister Eleanor (who is 15) and the daughters of Edward I's first marriage, all of the others are under 15, the Middle age majority.
Cambyses The Mad said:
Even so, we still have to consider Philipp IV of France... After all, Thomas of Brotherton, the first in line for the english throne is his nephew (Margaret of France was a daughter of Philipp III of France, making her Philipp IV's sister) and that would probably arrange him as the King of England is still Duke of Aquitaine/Guyenne at the time, making him a peer of France. If Philipp IV can have the English King under his thumb, I doubt he will hesitate as it could give him total control over the Duchy of Aquitaine.
That's a double edged sword though. If Thomas of Brotherton is clearly under the influence of the French it's going to turn a great many nobles against him, which is something a usurper could exploit.
Even in the event of Edward's death and the accession of Thomas, I think there is still going to be some kind of conflict over Aquitaine. This had been a stickler for over a hundred years by this point. The only way I could see to resolve this is for Thomas to give Aquitaine to one of his younger sons, but I don't think this is very likely.