British Tierra del Fuego

[Petete123123]

Originally Posted by corditeman

... Love to see what you've got as the Fuego colonial flag - suggest you look at the Falklands flag as an idea, since a lot of the early colonists were ex-Falklands (Malvinas points taken aboard, OK?). I suggest that you look at a White Ensign or Blue Ensign 'differenced' with a suitable logo. The Australian and NZ flags may point the way. Catch the Fuegans using a Canadian fig-leaf (maple-leaf)!

I would love to do a shield but I not good at drawing as you might seen in my maps
I thought about the Falklands one but I remembered they didn't live even 5 years there so the Islands don't mean much for them.
I was thinking in Fuego(Fire), the Forest, the Southern Cross, the Welsh Dragon, the Mountains, the Sheep, the Mimosa, the Irish Harp, the Guanaco, those kind of things.
I didn't include penguins or other birds because the Islands have some of both but they aren't so important as in Falklands or South Georgia.

Originally Posted by corditeman

The colours of Fuego seem to be forest and field greens, sea-colours. of blue, green or grey, ice and snow white, maybe the fire of 'Fuego' or a national tree or animal. As I said, I'm thinking my way through this, heading towards something that is as much of a national icon as the NZ kiwi, the OZ kangaroo or the South African springbok. Or it could be a symbol, like the Israeli Star of David or the Russian and Chinese five-point star.

We either can use the Lenga Leaf or the Guanaco. I like most the Guanaco. Also the Guanacos are going to be the best Rugby team in the World.
BTW, in OTL people here plays Rugby as much as Football, and we are in Argentina

Originally Posted by corditeman

Getting a bit worried that the Welsh in Patagonia may be demonised by Feretti in the same way as Hitler demonised the Jews. They are economically successful, a definite enclave and separate language of their own, and (worst of all) are dominant in Fuego and important in Britain. The Welsh may also give Britain a lot of support in World War 1 (Great War) because of Lloyd George, the Liberal PM who was that time's most famous/infamous Welshman.

Well, in WWI most people was pro-Britain, but maybe if some Welsh go as volunteers Ferretti might use this to say they work for the British or something like that.
But if they are demonised like the Jews we have to think what will happen to them, because by 1940 there would be like 25,000 Welsh descendants in Chubut and I don't think that all can go to Fuego at once. Maybe they go to Chile. Or are sent to Malvinas as a punishment.

Originally Posted by corditeman

From 1919 to 1921 the world experience Spanish Flu and Fuego won't be immune.

If Alaska suffered it in OTL, Fuego certainly will.

Originally Posted by corditeman

Oil will be the major inter-war boom and I am starting to wonder whether the Fuegans will actually experience the Great Depression - they have food, fuel, a fairly independent economy and a low population. Would I be right to expect further immigration from deprived parts of the UK and parts of Argentina and Chile? South Trelew, Rio del Fuego and Navarino's industrial areas, may actually expand. That will give the Fuegans the ability to contribute to the fight against Hitler in the Second World War. Do you think this is feasible?

Well from the UK I can't say, and from Argentina and Chile I don't think so. In Argentina people won't emigrate because of depression at this time. One of the reasons that made Argentines in OTL take emigration as an option if things are difficult at home were the thousands of people who flee from the country during the Juntas. But at this time I don't think so, and in fact, many poor people from the country migrated because of the depression, but to Buenos Aires, Cordoba and Rosario, as during the Depression the country had a good industrialization in those areas.

Originally Posted by corditeman

Post-war, we're looking at Feretti and the 1949 Fuegan Earthquake, both likely to affect the development of Fuego - and Welsh Patagonia. Yet there will also be the influence of the post-Roosevelt USA, with its hostility to Colonies by anybody but themselves. Whether it wants it or not, poor Fuego will be thrust into independence. This will probably mean losing the Royal Navy protective 'umbrella' and may mean weakness its neighbours will try to exploit.

The Earthquake was 7.8 and was nearly in the middle of Tierra del Fuego so it is going to have an effect.
Also the Welsh will have a difficult time. For one side we have the fact that they are no longer the majority of the population as many people came because of the Oil boom in Comodoro Rivadavia.
And this would also mean that the center of Patagonia economic power is changing from the Chubut Valley to Comodoro Rivadavia.
But if the Welsh try to create their own companies these are going to be taken by Ferretti as he did with most British companies.

[corditeman]

The Fuegan Colonial flag will have a Guanaco on a powder-blue shield on a white ground, with a Union Flag in the upper left canton. The RFAF roundel is a stylised guanaco in blue on a white background ringed with light blue.

And the Springboks'd better watch out! (Well, somebody will be drinking the Fuegan Brandy and all that Beagle Lager)

The Welsh can't go to Malvinas, or they will so outnumber the population that the Falklands will re-emerge - maybe they can be deported to Fuego, to be absorbed by the Fuegan population.

Spanish Flu will just have to be handled, then.

Postwar emigration from Britain was fairly high - we can boost the population a bit more that way. Also, some Anglo-Argentinos might come there after Feretti re-emerges. It may become the logical safety valve for those escaping the Junta.

Defence will be interesting - the Fuegans might be as dangerous as the Israelis, if people keep attacking them. A logical dumping ground for old Navy and Fleet Air Arm hardware, perhaps? Imagine Buccaneers and Sea Vixens at RFAF airbases and small carriers and non-nuclear subs like the German fuel-cell or stored-lox types. The ultimate Army and Navy Surplus Store defence service, perhaps?

Should Fuego become a wind-turbine powered tiger economy? If the wind's consistent, it's a possibility.

[Admiral Brown]

Originally Posted by corditeman

If you know Nerupe from previous posts, please send him a PM and ask him to review matters from his perspective. .

I'll right him, although I think he doesn't post very often...

[Petete123123]

Originally Posted by corditeman

The Fuegan Colonial flag will have a Guanaco on a powder-blue shield on a white ground, with a Union Flag in the upper left canton. The RFAF roundel is a stylised guanaco in blue on a white background ringed with light blue.

I sent you a nice one I did

Originally Posted by corditeman

And the Springboks'd better watch out! (Well, somebody will be drinking the Fuegan Brandy and all that Beagle Lager)

And they will have their dance, the h'ain, which was the Ona masculine iniciation ritual, and due to their disappearance and some misunderstandings from the Fuegans they think its like a war dance or something used to invoke Temaukel's power for them.

Originally Posted by corditeman

The Welsh can't go to Malvinas, or they will so outnumber the population that the Falklands will re-emerge - maybe they can be deported to Fuego, to be absorbed by the Fuegan population.

A Welsh Falklands with the Support of Fuego would be awesome but would need suffering from them. Maybe like this:
-During Ferretti's government, many Welsh are sent to the Falklands to have them separated from the rest of the country and have a better control over them. Almost 5.000 go to Fuego and the a bit more(about 6.000) are sent to the Falklands and so they became the principal group in the Islands. As they did in Patagonia, they manage to live there and prosper with help from Fuegan Welsh.
-During the Junta, a war is started between Fuego and Argentina over the Fuego Islands. After keeping the Argentines at bay, Fuegan soldiers are sent to the Falklands where they are welcomed by the population and the Welsh declare independence from Argentina. After this failure and many strikes from RFAF to Argentinean Patagonia, the Junta fall to popular pressure and peace is restored.
-After some years of independence, the Welsh in the Falklands vote to become part of Fuego and Yes wins. People in Argentina don't protest against this because CONADEP revealed many crimes and tortures to the people and especially to the Welsh. Of a population of 10.000 in mainland Argentina, 1.000 are dead or disappeared and other 1.000 were jailed during the war.
-After this, some Welsh choose to go to Fuego, but most stay in Chubut where they continue to be an important part of Patagonia and the country.

Originally Posted by corditeman

Postwar emigration from Britain was fairly high - we can boost the population a bit more that way. Also, some Anglo-Argentinos might come there after Feretti re-emerges. It may become the logical safety valve for those escaping the Junta.

But to what point? I can understand the Anglo-Argentines, but there are too many people going to escape from the Junta to go to Fuego. They are double at least than all Fuegans. Maybe we see some politic similar to White Australia called British Fuego? So only people of British ancestry are allowed to come

Originally Posted by corditeman

Defence will be interesting - the Fuegans might be as dangerous as the Israelis, if people keep attacking them. A logical dumping ground for old Navy and Fleet Air Arm hardware, perhaps? Imagine Buccaneers and Sea Vixens at RFAF airbases and small carriers and non-nuclear subs like the German fuel-cell or stored-lox types. The ultimate Army and Navy Surplus Store defence service, perhaps?

That would be awesome, but why would they use old technology when they proved to be very ingenious and inventive. Maybe also a tank adapted to Patagonia, or fighters capable of flying long distances so they can reach Comodoro and the Northern areas of Patagonia. Or gunboats carrying top techno missiles?

Originally Posted by corditeman

Should Fuego become a wind-turbine powered tiger economy? If the wind's consistent, it's a possibility.

You know when I was 12, I won the Second Place in a Science Fair here in Ushuaia. My work was about the possibility of using both hydraulic and wind power to power rural settlements and estancias. We have a good possibility in using trickles in the Forest areas for small scale water mills, but there can't be any dam.
In the Northern part however, we have plenty of the Patagonian Wind, which is a 24-hours the 365-days-of-the-year power source. In fact, the use of wind mills can even mean energy exportation.

[juanml82]

Just a minute. Is Ferreti a Peron analogue, a Videla analog or a whole different thing?

First, Argentina would still have Britain as it's main trade partner until WWII (if there is a WWII as we know it) unless there are major pods in Europe (say, a Wilhem II with an able left arm). For the purpose of simplicity, I'd go without major PODs, although some things should be slightly different - which also adds some flavor.

Second, when is Ferreti getting into power? A populist leader in the 1940s would need to deal, in some way, with the unions and the working class demands. Peron did, while at the same time controlling them. He was, pretty much, a Bonapartist leader. Now, Ferreti can go through different ways, of course.

Third. Dissapearences, torture? Torture was used by the Argentinean police along the first half of the 20th century, but it wasn't the whole plan instituted by the Armed Forces during the seventies. That was an integral part of the Armed Forces doctrine elaborated based on the anti insurgent lessons learnt from the Americans and French to stop the red menace and do their share in the WWIII which they believed was already taking place (aka, cold war). There isn't such a thing in the 1930's and 40's, although repression and random torture would still be employed by the most conservative sectors against anarchists, socialists, union leaders, etc. However, how would Ferretti fit into this, if he becomes a populist leader and thus, appeals to the working class, who was in the receiving end of the repression?

And about revanchism against the UK and demonizing the welsh descendants... I dunno. Maybe Ferreti can use the British as scapegoats to avoid hurting his relationship with the upper-class and maybe preventing a spread of violence between Argentineans. Business between Argentina and the UK would be too strong at least until WWII, though. The Welsh, however, are far away from the major urban centers, I don't how demonizing them would work - or wouldn't work.

About a Fuegan independence. I don't know, the place wouldn't have too much population. And about a war, it pretty much depends on how things develop. If Ferretti is going to be an strongman in the 40's and 50's then we are looking at early jets, WWII left over equipment, etc. Lancasters escorted by Gloster Meteors?


I don't know how you guys are thinking about Ferreti. How about violence spreading out of control (no idea how, but maybe Ferreti leadership leads to that) while the man rises to power and, once in power, he can't anything to stop it except aiming the anger it at the British and the Welsh descendants? Let's say our ATL WWII ended at about the same time and the UK came out of it weakened (maybe more than historically?). And however, Ferreti still thinks that kind of revanchism isn't a good idea, it's just the less bad idea he has. So he gives speeches, etc, while in private he doesn't believe a word he's saying and he regrets doing so? Inner conflict is always a good idea. And things snowball from there and he can't back down without loosing power?

[corditeman]

...Juan, dealing with the key matter first, Admiral Brown was against the idea of Peron existing in this TL, so we have the Ferretti analogue (a nice piece of work by Pete, BTW). The wiki on Peron is intriguing - a success in some ways, but he was interested by Benito Musolini's Fascisti. A lot to think about. But I've got to consider his rise to power - born in 1895, remember, so by the 1920s he's in the Army and a rising star. Making Ferretti the analogue (but maybe more a man of the people) we get the economic success but also a man for whom hanging on to power is the key feature. A 'darker Peron' and a demagogue with some nasty hatreds. Maybe he was refused a job by a Welsh businessman or tried to marry a Welsh girl who rejected him. We need Ferretti to be a grudge-holder.

Pete, the h'ain I like a lot. The Welsh WILL suffer, but I'm not convinced that even the Junta's behaviour will make the Argentinos give up the Malvinas. The logical Welsh homeland won't be Falklands/Malvinas, it'll be Fuego - unless Ferretti is reneging on the Rosas agreements. After all, there's all that lovely oil and gas...

I had wondered if Patagonia could declare independence and make it stick or go for a Welsh President candidate (Iolo Thomas), but there are too few Welsh in Chubut and elsewhere.

Regarding White Fuego, Australia briefly went for a 'Europeans-only' policy, but had to dump it because of the need for colonists. I could see people (as long as they take a loyalty oath) being more important than post-war origin.

But we have to get to 1919 first - a couple of posts needed.

Finished this rather swiftly - had to take wife to doctor - so just edited it. Inclined to agree with Julius - but Fuego may be rather cold for Fijians and Indian sub-continent (Leeds and Bradford are bad enough). With a history of Argentinos like Lieutenant Morales dying for Fuego, I can't see why the Fuegans would turn down worthwhile Hispanic Argentinos. The Welsh Patagonians definitely qualify as DPs (if that don't beat the Dutch!). I'd love to see Poles and Dutch come in post-WWII due to serving alongside friendly Celts and Anglos from Fuego...

Also had the feeling that Peron was rather ambivalent - dark to some, light to others - as much of a mixture as Rosas was. Ferretti will have to be more Falangist - Franco-style populist patriot with fascist/communist overtones - and maybe inclined to follow any line that gives him a win. He might well join the Allies on the winning side, after a prod from Truman, but that won't denigrate the efforts of the Fuerza Aerea Argentina in Italy and elsewhere. I'm pretty sure that Ferretti would put a troublesome fraudulent German fusion scientest up against a brick wall with a firing squad, or a Gestapo-style bullet in the back of the head. In fact, Gestapo-style action against the Welsh would force them to leave or be murdered in their beds. Fuego then becomes the sanctuary which is eventually attacked - fruitlessly - until there is an escalation into open warfare. Maybe then Pete's idea of a Welsh Falklands might occur.

[Julius Vogel]

I don't think any of the Dominions were particularly keen on non British immigration of any kind prior to the post WW2 period, although clearly it did happen on some ocassions. Then in the 1930s there was very little will to accept even British immigrants.

In NZ's case, aside from the Displaced Persons /Refugees and a couple of specific agreements (The Dutch sent over a large number) immigration was still largely confined to British European until the 1970s, when we started to loosen up and encourage Pacific Island immigration. That was pretty controversial too and I don't think we really became comfortable with them until the 1990s, when they were replaced by the spectre of East and South Asian immigration. We now seem to have made our peace with the latter now too so immigration doesn't really register as a major political issue, probably for the first time in 30 years!

So far as the time line goes, you could consider alternative immigration from the British and Commonwealth Pacific Islands. I would suggest Fiji, as it was British (rather than belonging to Australia or NZ) until 1970. If you open the doors there, then you would be able to get either Indian or indigenous Fijian. The former might be more interesting as then you form a BTdF connection to India generally. Then if the 1986 Coup occurs as OTL, then there would be a huge, long standing wave of Fijian Indian immigration to friendly Commonwealth countries.

[Julius Vogel]

Couple of points

1. Even with a dictator with a grudge, would an IOTL Argentina still try its luck against a British Dominion pre WW2? I would have thought that military and financial resources of the Empire would have still been sufficiently intimidating to make the answer no. I don't recall any incident of a regional power or neighbour properly attacking a Dominion or settler colony prior to WW2

2. I think the Fijian Indians would probably go where they could find a welcome, coldness be dammed. I've just found a source which actually says that more went to places like America or Canada. So BTdF may well be viable too. Here is a link, in case you want to investigate further

[Petete123123]

Originally Posted by juanml82

Just a minute. Is Ferreti a Peron analogue, a Videla analog or a whole different thing?

A bit of both. Maybe similar to Hittler in his ways of acting, his rise to power(after the 1929 crisis, I will write how his rise was).

Originally Posted by juanml82

First, Argentina would still have Britain as it's main trade partner until WWII (if there is a WWII as we know it) unless there are major pods in Europe (say, a Wilhem II with an able left arm). For the purpose of simplicity, I'd go without major PODs, although some things should be slightly different - which also adds some flavor.

If there was a war I would say it should be after WWII, and part of Ferretti's work would be to destroy that relationship with the UK. Maybe more industrialization after the 1929 Depression.

Originally Posted by juanml82

Second, when is Ferreti getting into power? A populist leader in the 1940s would need to deal, in some way, with the unions and the working class demands. Peron did, while at the same time controlling them. He was, pretty much, a Bonapartist leader. Now, Ferreti can go through different ways, of course.

I would deal with that soon

Originally Posted by juanml82

Third. Dissapearences, torture? Torture was used by the Argentinean police along the first half of the 20th century, but it wasn't the whole plan instituted by the Armed Forces during the seventies. That was an integral part of the Armed Forces doctrine elaborated based on the anti insurgent lessons learnt from the Americans and French to stop the red menace and do their share in the WWIII which they believed was already taking place (aka, cold war). There isn't such a thing in the 1930's and 40's, although repression and random torture would still be employed by the most conservative sectors against anarchists, socialists, union leaders, etc. However, how would Ferretti fit into this, if he becomes a populist leader and thus, appeals to the working class, who was in the receiving end of the repression?

Remember that this guy is Ferretti. He has his own way of acting and is not a plain analogue of someone else.

Originally Posted by juanml82

And about revanchism against the UK and demonizing the welsh descendants... I dunno. Maybe Ferreti can use the British as scapegoats to avoid hurting his relationship with the upper-class and maybe preventing a spread of violence between Argentineans. Business between Argentina and the UK would be too strong at least until WWII, though. The Welsh, however, are far away from the major urban centers, I don't how demonizing them would work - or wouldn't work.

The Welsh would be seen as British, and so as enemies of the nation.

Originally Posted by juanml82

About a Fuegan independence. I don't know, the place wouldn't have too much population. And about a war, it pretty much depends on how things develop. If Ferretti is going to be an strongman in the 40's and 50's then we are looking at early jets, WWII left over equipment, etc. Lancasters escorted by Gloster Meteors?

In OTL, Argentina was the Ninth country to develop it's own jet, so maybe here as they are no longer friends of the British, maybe more German scientist come to Argentina and they help to create new Argentinean designs.

Originally Posted by juanml82

I don't know how you guys are thinking about Ferreti. How about violence spreading out of control (no idea how, but maybe Ferreti leadership leads to that) while the man rises to power and, once in power, he can't anything to stop it except aiming the anger it at the British and the Welsh descendants? Let's say our ATL WWII ended at about the same time and the UK came out of it weakened (maybe more than historically?). And however, Ferreti still thinks that kind of revanchism isn't a good idea, it's just the less bad idea he has. So he gives speeches, etc, while in private he doesn't believe a word he's saying and he regrets doing so? Inner conflict is always a good idea. And things snowball from there and he can't back down without loosing power?

I will try something with revanchism

Originally Posted by corditeman

...Juan, dealing with the key matter first, Admiral Brown was against the idea of Peron existing in this TL, so we have the Ferretti analogue (a nice piece of work by Pete, BTW). The wiki on Peron is intriguing - a success in some ways, but he was interested by Benito Musolini's Fascisti. A lot to think about. But I've got to consider his rise to power - born in 1895, remember, so by the 1920s he's in the Army and a rising star. Making Ferretti the analogue (but maybe more a man of the people) we get the economic success but also a man for whom hanging on to power is the key feature. A 'darker Peron' and a demagogue with some nasty hatreds. Maybe he was refused a job by a Welsh businessman or tried to marry a Welsh girl who rejected him. We need Ferretti to be a grudge-holder.

I will do a mini post with his rise to power

Originally Posted by corditeman

Pete, the h'ain I like a lot. The Welsh WILL suffer, but I'm not convinced that even the Junta's behaviour will make the Argentinos give up the Malvinas. The logical Welsh homeland won't be Falklands/Malvinas, it'll be Fuego - unless Ferretti is reneging on the Rosas agreements. After all, there's all that lovely oil and gas...

I don't think that at that time they would know there was oil there. And here in Argentina there an old tradition to forget or change what the one who was before you did. So maybe he says it was wrong because this, and this and send the Welsh there.

Originally Posted by corditeman

I had wondered if Patagonia could declare independence and make it stick or go for a Welsh President candidate (Iolo Thomas), but there are too few Welsh in Chubut and elsewhere.

No. If Argentineans who speak Spanish live there the no.
But if the ones living there with the Welsh are lets say, Germans who preserved their culture as the Welsh, and for some miracle manage to win a war against Argentina for their independence, then yes. And there aren't so few Welsh. Most of population at the time(1920) was in Rio Negro and Neuquen, which is to the North. If the Independent Patagonia is only the two southernmost provinces(Santa Cruz and Chubut), then the Welsh aren't a majority, but before Ferretti they would be maybe a third of all population in TTL.

Originally Posted by corditeman

Regarding White Fuego, Australia briefly went for a 'Europeans-only' policy, but had to dump it because of the need for colonists. I could see people (as long as they take a loyalty oath) being more important than post-war origin.

But Australia had plenty of space, and that's something Fuego doesn't have, which would make immigration less likely and of the few capable of coming, maybe they would prefer them to be more like them, besides most of the immigrants won't be Europeans, so this way you reduce immigration a lot.
(Not for being racist, just trying to think like if I lived there)

Originally Posted by corditeman

Finished this rather swiftly - had to take wife to doctor - so just edited it. Inclined to agree with Julius - but Fuego may be rather cold for Fijians and Indian sub-continent (Leeds and Bradford are bad enough). With a history of Argentinos like Lieutenant Morales dying for Fuego, I can't see why the Fuegans would turn down worthwhile Hispanic Argentinos. The Welsh Patagonians definitely qualify as DPs (if that don't beat the Dutch!). I'd love to see Poles and Dutch come in post-WWII due to serving alongside friendly Celts and Anglos from Fuego...

Well, by this time most Argentines were white so they should be able to come along Welsh, Dutch, Poles, etc.

Originally Posted by corditeman

Also had the feeling that Peron was rather ambivalent - dark to some, light to others - as much of a mixture as Rosas was. Ferretti will have to be more Falangist - Franco-style populist patriot with fascist/communist overtones - and maybe inclined to follow any line that gives him a win. He might well join the Allies on the winning side, after a prod from Truman, but that won't denigrate the efforts of the Fuerza Aerea Argentina in Italy and elsewhere. I'm pretty sure that Ferretti would put a troublesome fraudulent German fusion scientest up against a brick wall with a firing squad, or a Gestapo-style bullet in the back of the head. In fact, Gestapo-style action against the Welsh would force them to leave or be murdered in their beds. Fuego then becomes the sanctuary which is eventually attacked - fruitlessly - until there is an escalation into open warfare. Maybe then Pete's idea of a Welsh Falklands might occur.

I will deal with this

Originally Posted by Julius Vogel

I don't think any of the Dominions were particularly keen on non British immigration of any kind prior to the post WW2 period, although clearly it did happen on some ocassions. Then in the 1930s there was very little will to accept even British immigrants.

Well, I think the problem of Fuego is the lack of space and the fact that oil will become vital after WWII.

Originally Posted by Julius Vogel

So far as the time line goes, you could consider alternative immigration from the British and Commonwealth Pacific Islands. I would suggest Fiji, as it was British (rather than belonging to Australia or NZ) until 1970. If you open the doors there, then you would be able to get either Indian or indigenous Fijian. The former might be more interesting as then you form a BTdF connection to India generally. Then if the 1986 Coup occurs as OTL, then there would be a huge, long standing wave of Fijian Indian immigration to friendly Commonwealth countries.

Believe, Fijians will have a difficult time here
Maybe some Maoris?

Originally Posted by Julius Vogel

1. Even with a dictator with a grudge, would an IOTL Argentina still try its luck against a British Dominion pre WW2? I would have thought that military and financial resources of the Empire would have still been sufficiently intimidating to make the answer no. I don't recall any incident of a regional power or neighbour properly attacking a Dominion or settler colony prior to WW2

Pre WW2 not. We were talking post WWII, 10 or 20 years after it.

[Petete123123]

This is Roberto "Tito" Ferretti's life:

Roberto "Tito" Ferretti was born the 22nd of May of 1898 in Rosario, Santa Fe. He was the fourth son of Carlos Ferretti, an Italian from Turin,Piamonte and Helga Schulz, a German from Ausgburg, Bavaria. He spent most of his childhood living in a middle class immigrants neighborhood. There he got used to cultural mixing and the hard working culture of this immigrants. From young he proved to be a natural leader among his friends, and they called him "Tito", a common nickname for people called Roberto.

His three older brothers decided to volunteer for Germany in the Great War. Luckily, all three were in the same regiment. Tito was proud of being their brother and became excited with the idea of one day being a militar.
But unfortunately, the three of them where killed in the battle of Somme by British troops. When he finally knew this, he started to feel a deep and big hate for the British.

After this he tried to enter the Colegio Militar de la Nacion, but because of using glasses he was not accepted. So as he couldn't be a militar he decided to study the laws career in the UBA, and by 1923 he was a lawyer. He was particulary interested in the immigrants rights and started to work for sindicalists. He became famous among the worker class in Rosario and even attempted to run for Diputado in one occasion, but he lost by a very little margin.

But then in 1929 the Wall Street Crack suddenly ruined the Argentine growth and made many people went into poverty. Some military officers wanted to coup the government but they where stopped by General López, who was in charge of the Army and was President Mainini's cousin. The Argentine government decided to create a plan for industrialization which made many poor people become workers in factories.

And one event shocked him even more. Being in Rosario he was invited to a party in Carlos Jenkins house. Carlos Jenkins was the son of Aaron Jenkins the Welsh from Patagonia and current president of the Chubut Valley Irrigation Company as well as some factories in Rosario, where he lived because of convenience and because of the better climate. He also had a daughter called Vanessa Jenkins, which was famous in Rosario for her beauty. Roberto immediately felt in love with her and started talking to her. They soon become friends and Roberto thought they would marry someday. After some time he asked Carlos to marry her, but he was rejected because of not being Methodist. But Roberto was in love and wouldn't accept a no. He then proposed marriage to Vanessa, but she rejected him saying that she was going to marry Jorge Jones(grand-son of Lewis Jones) and move to Chubut. This made Ferretti feel betrayed and this created in him an insane hate against the Welsh saying they were as British as any people from London.

Tito soon started to talk to the workers, to gain their support. He went to every Argentinean major city to show his ideas. He convinced them that the reason for their poverty and the poverty of Argentina were the British including the Welsh, whom he said were sent by the British to control us more closely. He said they controlled so much the country that the Crisis was a their tool to prevent us becoming powerful, to prevent us from ruling our destiny. He controlled a good deal of the working class in Argentina, and so, the UCR candidate to president, Miguel Zapata, proposed him to form a coalition, where he would be his vice-president. Ferretti accepted.

In the election of 1934, the formula Zapata-Ferretti won, but Zapata died soon afterwards because of heart stroke, but many say he was poisoned. The fact is that Ferretti became President being 36 years old and it seemed he would still be there for a long time.

This was the first part of Roberto "Tito" Ferretti's life.

To be continued...

[Ampersand]

That's an astounding collaborative work, fellas!

If you want, I may make a/some map/s for the TL, focusing on the main settlements, economic activity, districts, etc. PM me

[Petete123123]

Originally Posted by Ampersand

That's an astounding collaborative work, fellas!

If you want, I may make a/some map/s for the TL, focusing on the main settlements, economic activity, districts, etc. PM me

Okay, I've done some rough maps and sent them to cordi some time before so i can send you them and you can make them look beautiful.

Btw, are you good making flags?

[corditeman]

...I have a powerful urge to find a sniper's rifle (or a hammer, stake and garlic) before he gets too dangerous.

With your permission, I'll work Ferretti into the TL using your information. I had thought I could parallel Peron's rise, giving Ferretti a Falangist approach. He starts out in a promising way, but absolute power and corruption loom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falange gives an idea of the Spanish Falangist philosophy. Bearing in mind it's Hispanic and Fascist and Ferretti grows up to a Catholic Italian mother and a German father, I thought it would fit. But Franco would probably hate Ferretti's guts (' No sir, not you, just your guts' - Radar, MASH) for manipulating Falangist doctrine to something more akin to Nazi-ism.

I'm not sure whether a Welsh businessman would really act in the way you make Carlos Jenkins behave - I thought Ferretti might try to marry above his station and was refused by the girl and her Welsh father, who was a Welsh Calvinist Methodist (Welsh Presbyterian Methodist) with an aversion to Catholics. Instead, Ferretti goes after the daughter of a College Professor, ultimately marrying Juanita ('Nita') LaPaz as his first wife.

Losing his brothers in the Somme might make him hate the British, but to have his race and religion slurred by a Patagonian Welshman and Maria Jenkins would generate a very personal grudge. It would also give him the Falangist Catholic religious standpoint to denounce the Methodist Welsh as anti-Catholic threats to Argentine society. Und so weiter...

Why make Ferretti one-eyed? It'll lead to accusations of his being a pirate and bandit and handicap his politiocal chances. Voters like a healthy body so give them a maverick officer, often passed-over for his political opinions, despite being a political genius.

On the subject of oil and gas, the first signs were seen in Patagonia in 1907 (Gulf San Jorge Basin) and OTL 1949 production in Argentine TdF. But Chile was drilling 1930-1942, with production in 1945. I'm introducing a Magellan Incident when a Welshman, a Scotsman and an Irishman, discover steam coal on Isla Sant Inez in May 1902, just across the Strecho Magellanas from Riesco, where a big coalfield is being developed right now. Allowing for British Fuegan quick wits and Shell Petroleum interest, we might just see commercial oil drilled and produced from 2000 metre wells in Bahia San Sebastian in the late 1930s. The Incident's fun, so I won't spoil it. I hope the very late Contraalmirante Goni would approve of what I am planning to do in his name.

What do you think? I'm revising my next tranche (1900 to 1913) and may publish it here during the weekend.

[Petete123123]

Originally Posted by corditeman

...I have a powerful urge to find a sniper's rifle (or a hammer, stake and garlic) before he gets too dangerous.

People say the only way to kill him is to shot him with a bullet dipped in Fuegan Brandy in his good eye

Originally Posted by corditeman

With your permission, I'll work Ferretti into the TL using your information. I had thought I could parallel Peron's rise, giving Ferretti a Falangist approach. He starts out in a promising way, but absolute power and corruption loom.

Feel free

Originally Posted by corditeman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falange gives an idea of the Spanish Falangist philosophy. Bearing in mind it's Hispanic and Fascist and Ferretti grows up to a Catholic Italian mother and a German father, I thought it would fit. But Franco would probably hate Ferretti's guts (' No sir, not you, just your guts' - Radar, MASH) for manipulating Falangist doctrine to something more akin to Nazi-ism.

Well, I wanted to make Ferretti have political beliefs which would make the State and the country to go against a particular culture or people, and not to a class of people or an ideology, so I tended to go more towards Nazism, taking in account that the Falange made many people from all origins and from each language of the country to emigrate, so was not at all what I was looking for.

Originally Posted by corditeman

I'm not sure whether a Welsh businessman would really act in the way you make Carlos Jenkins behave - I thought Ferretti might try to marry above his station and was refused by the girl and her Welsh father, who was a Welsh Calvinist Methodist (Welsh Presbyterian Methodist) with an aversion to Catholics. Instead, Ferretti goes after the daughter of a College Professor, ultimately marrying Juanita ('Nita') LaPaz as his first wife.

Remember he is a Welsh Argentine and he is rich. But maybe to be rejected would be better.

Originally Posted by corditeman

Losing his brothers in the Somme might make him hate the British, but to have his race and religion slurred by a Patagonian Welshman and Maria Jenkins would generate a very personal grudge. It would also give him the Falangist Catholic religious standpoint to denounce the Methodist Welsh as anti-Catholic threats to Argentine society. Und so weiter...

I will add the rejection. And we need to name Ferretti ideology, because I think it is becoming an ideology on its own. A Catholic Immigrant society, where people hope to go from worker class to middle class and prosperity, where British are hated and blamed for the bad things, and where there is an important secret police and an important secret service, although the military forces aren't as dominant as OTL.

Originally Posted by corditeman

Why make Ferretti one-eyed? It'll lead to accusations of his being a pirate and bandit and handicap his politiocal chances. Voters like a healthy body so give them a maverick officer, often passed-over for his political opinions, despite being a political genius.

You are right, that was a bit exagerated But made him look more evil

Originally Posted by corditeman

What do you think? I'm revising my next tranche (1900 to 1913) and may publish it here during the weekend.

I'm waiting for it

[corditeman]

... Ferrettism - Ferrettistos? Can you find a Spanish adjective and a name for his party?

As with the use of Peron's name.

Only one snag - a Ferret is a Polecat in English. Ferrets stink.

I think Falangistos is possibly best - a link to Spain and an apparently mainstream ideology. The reality is as different as the theory and governmental practice of Communism.

As in Communism and Nazi-ism, the Armed Forces may be the Saviours of Democracy...

[Petete123123]

Originally Posted by corditeman

... Ferrettism - Ferrettistos? Can you find a Spanish adjective and a name for his party?

Ferrestismo/Ferretism, so a member is Ferrestista/Ferretist.

Originally Posted by corditeman

I think Falangistos is possibly best - a link to Spain and an apparently mainstream ideology. The reality is as different as the theory and governmental practice of Communism.

If nothing the Argentines would look for a link to Italy, because of the population origins, and by this time Argentina wasn't as left as Spain was.

Originally Posted by corditeman

As in Communism and Nazi-ism, the Armed Forces may be the Saviours of Democracy...

He wouldn't have such a focus in Armed force at first because he's a good politician and think that that would give the military too much power and that may threaten his position. But by the time he's getting older, he becomes more orientated towards right and realize that his neighbors are becoming more powerful and he is being left behind, he gives a new focus to armed forces, which would ultimately coup him and form the Junta which would continue the military development and would attack Fuego. And when they do so they will attack(torture, prision, dissapparences, etc) the Welsh in Chubut because they say the help the enemy and things like that.

[corditeman]

Seriously, I think the Falange safer than the Fascisti, although a party centred on a demagogue leader and with its own security apparatus (not police or army) is fascist. Ferretti starts as semi-Falange and ends up semi-fascist.

After reading up on SERC and DIPA, I think we need something even more unpleasant. What's Spanish for Political Security or State Police (and I don't mean provincial militia)?

From histories, the traditional progress into government in Argentina involves at least some kind of Armed Forces career. It's only post-war (and latterly, post-Junta) that the elected route looks like the primary one. Or am I seriously wrong, here? There seemed to be a lot of gold braid in Presidential career depictions.

[juanml82]

Italy??? I thought Argentina was a former Spanish Colony!

A huge part of the immigrants, and immigrants children, were of Italian origin.

After reading up on SERC and DIPA, I think we need something even more unpleasant. What's Spanish for Political Security or State Police (and I don't mean provincial militia)?

I think "los servicios", meaning "the (intelligence) service" can do, although I'm not sure if that jargon is a post WWII thing.

[Julius Vogel]

@petete - Maori immigration.

I think it unlikely, but it would be kind of neat if that could be included that in the time line.

Possible ways of doing it would be to make sure firstly that NZ and BTdF have very strong connections, similar to how it is with Australia or even SA. So lots of sporting contact and the shared effort in the wars would do that, along with the Commonwealth aspect.

Then, develop contacts between the Maori and the Welsh. The Welsh are highly respected for their work on protecting and developing their language by other peoples who wish to do the same. The Maori language promoters have very much taken note of Welsh efforts and would love to be able to replicate their success.

Then make sure that BTdF has visa free access and settlement rights for NZ citizens (sort of like what Australia has)

All of the above could then be used to create a small community of Maori in BTdF.

[Petete123123]

Originally Posted by corditeman

Seriously, I think the Falange safer than the Fascisti, although a party centred on a demagogue leader and with its own security apparatus (not police or army) is fascist. Ferretti starts as semi-Falange and ends up semi-fascist.

Well, I think the main difference between Ferretism and the Falange was that the Falange was corporatist and anti-capitalist, when the Ferretism just wants to get rid of foreign influence(mainly British) and so let the Argentines control the economy. Obviously, the ones who will control it would mostly be Ferretti's friends and so he would control more the country. And he would would make the Capitalists and Companies to be on his side and the side of the people.
Just think of how Hittler tried to make the Germans live good, the Companies where on his side, etc.
Ferretti is looking for an Argentina where the Argentineans(Immigrants and their descendants) are prosper and live good. He won't be looking for more territories as Argentina already has many. But maybe an Anchulss with Uruguay would be awesome.

But to have important people on your side who won't be very willing to see workers prosper as then they won't earn so much money, he is going to need a good secret police.
I was thinking of something like:
-SSN or SESENA/SERSENA(Servicio de Seguridad Nacional/ National Security Service)
-PSN or POSENA(Policia de Seguridad Nacional/ National Security Police)
-SAI(Servicio de Asuntos Internos/ National Security Service)

I preder the last one

Originally Posted by corditeman

After reading up on SERC and DIPA, I think we need something even more unpleasant. What's Spanish for Political Security or State Police (and I don't mean provincial militia)?

Policia de Estado, but I already gave you some names

Originally Posted by corditeman

From histories, the traditional progress into government in Argentina involves at least some kind of Armed Forces career. It's only post-war (and latterly, post-Junta) that the elected route looks like the primary one. Or am I seriously wrong, here? There seemed to be a lot of gold braid in Presidential career depictions.

Well, not really. H. Yrigoyen and M.T. de Alvear weren't in the armed forces and were both presidents in OTL elected by true democracy. Before the rulers of the country were the aristocrats and landowners of the PAN, but just some of them like Roca were militars. After the first coup in the XX Century done by Uriburu, then you are right that only after the Junta people out of the armed forces were presidents.
But maybe I can think a way to add at least some kind of fighting, like some riots he commands.

Originally Posted by Julius Vogel

I think it unlikely, but it would be kind of neat if that could be included that in the time line.

Possible ways of doing it would be to make sure firstly that NZ and BTdF have very strong connections, similar to how it is with Australia or even SA. So lots of sporting contact and the shared effort in the wars would do that, along with the Commonwealth aspect.

Then, develop contacts between the Maori and the Welsh. The Welsh are highly respected for their work on protecting and developing their language by other peoples who wish to do the same. The Maori language promoters have very much taken note of Welsh efforts and would love to be able to replicate their success.

Then make sure that BTdF has visa free access and settlement rights for NZ citizens (sort of like what Australia has)

All of the above could then be used to create a small community of Maori in BTdF.

Maybe a Maori colony created by Maoris in the Western Isles? What do you think Cordi?