WI - An ATL 1960's counterculture in an USA which lost WW2

Imagine a timeline in which the Pacific War went horribly wrong for a poorly prepared USA, the 3rd Reich kept most of continental Europe, and the Soviet Union barely hung on after the Germans took Moscow and killed Stalin. San Francisco was devastated by the Japanese A-bomb before the USA could complete their own belated nuclear weapons program without any help from Mosley's Britain. There's been no previous American involvement in a Vietnam War or a Korean War.

Now it's the 1960's, and the USA is sending soldiers to fight in the Central American War.

What's the counter-culture movement like? What sort of social unrest is happening?
 
Depends on the POD

Its easy to create a plausible timeline, but I don't see the need to post one every time. A rough outline should
be enough to consider the situation.

first off, you need to nix the Japanese nuke. Japan did not have the technological or the resource base to develop a nuclear bomb. Nor did they have the money or the scientific pool. America had all the above and took years to build one.

Second, there is no way the Japanese could have nuked CONUS because the USN and USAAF would have taken down any bomber that would get within 50 miles of CONUS.

Remember, this subforum is dedicated towards plausibility in post 1900 scenarios. ASB is for anything like Japanese Nukes in WW2 or successful Sealion.
 
first off, you need to nix the Japanese nuke. Japan did not have the technological or the resource base to develop a nuclear bomb. Nor did they have the money or the scientific pool.

That's very debateable

Japan got very close

America had all the above and took years to build one.

Mosley's Britain = no Churchill, no Manhattan project cooperation

It was supposed to be a clue about the changes

Second, there is no way the Japanese could have nuked CONUS because the USN and USAAF would have taken down any bomber that would get within 50 miles of CONUS.

There are many similar timelines which show it's possible in ATL with early 1900s POD

Remember, this subforum is dedicated towards plausibility in post 1900 scenarios. ASB is for anything like Japanese Nukes in WW2 or successful Sealion.

It's possible with a POD after 1900 and before 1905
 
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I never said anything about the Axis controlling the UK - that's why I mentioned 3rd Reich kept most of continental Europe. The UK isn't on the continent

Nope, BUT the Japanese A-Bomb is equivalent to one.

You have to also state just how "poorly prepared" the US (or did you mean the CSA;)) was for Pacific War. Short of ASB, it isn't happening - the US WILL crush Japan with its massive industrial resources after Pearl Harbor.
 
Nope, BUT the Japanese A-Bomb is equivalent to one..

not really

quite possible, as I said with an earlier POD

You have to also state just how "poorly prepared" the US (or did you mean the CSA;)) was for Pacific War.

They went into wartime mode too late.

Short of ASB, it isn't happening - the US WILL crush Japan with its massive industrial resources after Pearl Harbor.

honestly, it's not ASB

POD around WW-1 or earlier would allow the possibility. A defeat in an earlier war makes it possible for the Japanese government to push harder and earlier to fix the problems with the navy and army. With the long delay in attack on Pearl Harbor, the USA doesn't get into the war economy until too late. The USA's industrial might wrongly directed into consumer goods instead of war production for longer because of no attack by Japan until they're ready, and not before, makes it possible for Japan to be better prepared. The earlier defeat in another war could also mean the sort of policy change that gives a junior partner (not subjugated) Korea on the Japanese side with the consequent increase in manpower and industry.

Without British cooperation, the USA starts late in this ATL version of Manhattan. The Japanese could have nuclear weapons just a few months before the USA (with the "F-Go" program), although it wouldn't be easy for them to deliver an attack. They need a heavy jet bomber escorted with jet-fighters like the Nakajima J9Y Kikka, otherwise the land-based US defences could shoot the bomber down
 
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Let's go by your scenario then. Somehow, ignoring logistics and reality altogether, it worked!

WWII-6.jpg


Possibly a German-Japanese/Italian split sometime in the 1950s over partition issues in India and the Middle-East. So instead of two power blocs facing each other, we have three, with the members of the original Axis vying for control of precious resources and ideological superiority.

Culture-wise, the United States would be in a perpetual war-footing. It will easily enjoy the highest standards of living on the planet, even if more than half of its industries are dedicated to armaments output well into the 1960s. Social unrest is there, thanks to war-weariness, but the Eurasian boogeymen are also there too - Argentina has amassed itself as an Axis power and a New South American Empire stretching along from tip to tip of the Pacific coast, with only Brazil and Venezuela (and Unca Sam) keeping it in check. Even if (or when) the public demands an "end" to official hostilities, the need to enforce a Monroe Doctrine or a variant (including Britain and the remaining Asia-Pacific-Australasian allies) would be very pressing and recognized - expect more emphasis on long-range strategic bombers and supercarrier groups patrolling the Atlantic and Pacific.
 
Let's go by your scenario then. Somehow, ignoring logistics and reality altogether, it worked!

We ignore our current reality with the consideration of every POD from our history.

Love the map, and 1954 is one of my favourite years.

Anyway, I'm more curious right now what the culture and society in the USA would be like.
 
To make the scenario realistic, you need some changes. Suppose Japan continues its attack on Pearl Harbor and invades the island. They weaken US defenses, but know full well it would be suicide to try to invade the mainland. They may symbolically send a regiment to the west coast, knowing they would be quickly defeated. But the fact that it might take days to defeat them would be a demoralizing factor, especially if they took control of an eastbound train.

Meanwhile, in Europe, the Nazis know when to stop. With France, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc., they stop short of trying to invade Russia. Let's say there is no Holocaust; you would need to remove Hitler at some point, but the details are not the focus of this thread.

Stalin has no need to build the Red Army to invade Germany, but he has real concern over Japan, sending him into a temporary alliance with the US in the Pacific. The Pacific war is abbreviated, with the US losing the Philippines to Japan before accepting a treaty that takes Japan out of Hawaii, etc. There is no time for the A-bomb, as the world settles into an Orwellian three-way cold war, with the USSR in limbo without its OTL war machine and German rocket scientists.

In the fifties, each of three blocs get The Bomb; Germany is the first to launch satellites, etc. Hopefully this takes the scenario out of ASB.

Now, what about the counter-culture of the sixties? First, the Baby Boom after WWII is subdued. Second, there are no Nuremberg trials. Many think the counter-culture was directly linked to the inability of the American education system to reconcile these trials with the principles against ex post facto laws.

But none of this happens. The solution is simple: there is no counter-culture. There will indeed be changes in music, owing to emerging recording technology. But they will blend into society, much as cell phones and the Internet did in more recent decades.
 
We ignore our current reality with the consideration of every POD from our history.

Love the map, and 1954 is one of my favourite years.

Anyway, I'm more curious right now what the culture and society in the USA would be like.

Ah, getting to the meat of things.:D

It would be more militarized than OTL, especially so if the Axis have a presence (or hints of one) anywhere in the Americas. Think of the 1940s on 10x rocket boosters, or the post-Eurasian War AoD from Domination trilogy. I disagree that anything like the peace movement formed during Vietnam would arise - something smaller might develop, but it would probably not be significant enough in the American zeitgeist. More possibly, a feeling of despair and ennui combined with an inevitable fey for the "Final Struggle" would develop - its either they crush the Eurasian boogeymen when the time comes, or pay a cost beyond measure for all time.

Of course, that's not counting in factors like the afromentioned German-Italian-Japanese sphere split, or all three suffering internal breakdowns...
 
ATL's counterculture could have some strong quasi-fascist elements. Cult of action and strength, arguing that traditional institutions and mores need to be overturned for the sake of Youth and Efficiency, etc. You know, like the German counterculture of the 20s.
 
To make the scenario realistic, you need some changes. Suppose Japan continues its attack on Pearl Harbor and invades the island. .

A better Japanese military from after a Russo-Japanese or Sino-Japanese War defeat wouldn't even consider such an invasion. Not until way after the island had been cut-off for years.

They weaken US defenses, but know full well it would be suicide to try to invade the mainland. They may symbolically send a regiment to the west coast, knowing they would be quickly defeated.

They don't need to consider invading the mainland or sending any regiment to do so (possible they might use small units of raiders and saboteurs dropped off the coast by submarine, however - in out, cause some panic then leave if they can). The practical trouble is the US Navy, not the mainland or it's industry. They only need to make if extremely difficult for the US Navy to have decent force to the Pacific. Taking out the Panama Canal & Pearl Harbor simultaneously would cause huge problems for the US Navy putting them on the back foot for years if the Japanese had waited until better prepared. IOTL, this would be impossible to prepare for any time after the late 1930's AFAIK. I've been researching it a lot, and gone over heaps of threads related to this in this forum.

However, a POD like a defeat or near-defeat in the Russo-Japanese War in 1905, or similar, would change the way the Japanese military operates - gets rid of the Victory Disease thinking - and results in better planning the next time.

But the fact that it might take days to defeat them would be a demoralizing factor, especially if they took control of an eastbound train.

There's really no necessity in invading the mainland, just submarines that actually sink the USA's merchant ships instead of ignoring them as IOTL would be frightening enough - and more effective in the long run - combined with sinking most of the US Pacific Fleet...and keeping it weak. The Japanese have radar in 1943, and in this timeline their pilots don't remove their radios. The Japanese in such a timeline could keep sinking the US Navy vessels in the Pacific, and effectively hamper coastal port operations on the West Coast. In 1944, they have jet-fighters, and in another year they could have heavy long-range jet bombers that can bomb the West Coast ports like San Diego. Long before the USA has their P-80 Shooting Star jet-fighters ready to stop those high flying, fast moving jet-bombers (which would be escorted, most likely).

Eventually later in the war (1944-1945), perhaps the USA's ASW techniques are up to the job of catching some of those IJN submarines. There could be delays in that, because of the later entry of the USA into the war.

The USA would have to bring ships from the Atlantic, without the Panama Canal. That takes pressure off the Germans, and allows Germany to sink more of the merchant shipping, supplies, and Allied transportation of troops/material.

Meanwhile, in Europe, the Nazis know when to stop. With France, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc., they stop short of trying to invade Russia.

Or they invade Russia with better preparation and/or better timing. If they somehow kill/capture Stalin they cause chaos for awhile, taking Moscow does that too but less so. If they go to that point and use the opportunity to consolidate what they have instead of advancing further, then they've got a chance at winning. Especially if the Japanese are starting to seriously cause problems for the USA in the Pacific. Recall in what I mentioned before, the USA gets into the war much later than IOTL because without the Japanese attacking, war is a hard sell to the American public - so getting into a war footing in the economy is later than IOTL too.

Let's say there is no Holocaust;

In such a world, the people in the West probably wouldn't know if there was, or wasn't. There'd be no way to confirm it either way. There'd be rumours, but no pictures of American soldiers finding starving sick people at some German-run camp.

Let's say there is no Holocaust; you would need to remove Hitler at some point, but the details are not the focus of this thread.

Yes, Hitler needs to be removed. The 3rd Reich can turn him into a martyr for the cause. There were enough assassination attempts, it's almost absurd how he survived until 1945 with so many lucky misses. The public need not "know" that Hitler was killed until the internal government power-struggle is over though.

Stalin has no need to build the Red Army to invade Germany

Not to same extent, although apparently Stalin would've tried to invade Germany at some point. He was just as much into betrayal as Hitler was. It wouldn't be easy to butterfly away a conflict between Germany and Russia with either one in charge.

but he has real concern over Japan, .

Stalin would have more concerns over the German 3rd Reich - they're right on his doorstep. Fighting Germany would have to come first. If Japan isn't doing anything against the USA until after 1943 because they're entirely focused on grabbing and developing that southern resource area - then sit and developing it further for 2-3 years, the USA doesn't get into the war until the Japanese Empire finally attacks Pearl Harbor and the Panama Canal.

The Pacific war is abbreviated, with the US losing the Philippines to Japan before accepting a treaty that takes Japan out of Hawaii, etc.

The Pacific War is abbreviated because the USA starts late, but Japan could develop A-bombs by the end of August 1945 with their "F-Go" project. I've studied this; they could have six A-bombs ready by April 1946. The USA could have an A-bomb by then anyway, but very unlikely before the end of 1945 if there's no wartime economy until 1943, and no actual Manhattan Project assistance from the British because of there being no Churchill.

The result is shorter Pacific War, which makes it a lot easier for Japan. It doesn't matter who uses the first A-bomb if both sides have them; perhaps the USA uses the A-bomb first, perhaps the Japanese reply only days later with their own on San Francisco or San Diego. or visa-versa. The point is that neither the USA nor Japan know how many nuclear bombs the other side has, just that they have them and are willing to use them. Both sides can bluff and pretend to have more.

Since it's really a waste of time and resources trying to invade Hawaii, the Japanese can just lift their blockade and even pull back a bit at the end of the war. Perhaps in peace negotiations, Hawaii becomes some kind of "free port" and a neutral zone (wonderful idea for espionage stories).

There is no time for the A-bomb

IMHO, the Japanese need an A-bomb to stop the USA pushing the war further. There's no way that the USA would stop otherwise, because the USA had it's own "victory disease" and over-confidence from previous military victories. In this ATL, there'd be time for an A-bomb but the war doesn't end until April 1946 most likely.

as the world settles into an Orwellian three-way cold war

Well, a 3-way cold war would be even colder and scarier with the threat of nuclear bombs.

The USSR would try to catch-up as quickly as possible and gain the capability probably in the same way as IOTL; spying.

with the USSR in limbo without its OTL war machine

I suspect that the USSR would have it's war machine either way; they couldn't just sit there with the heavily armed 3rd Reich next door.

Losing/nearly-losing in WW2 could make them a much nastier military in many ways, as they'd have more anxiety to improve their training and preparedness.

and German rocket scientists.

Now that is going to be problematic for the USSR, but only at first. The USA wouldn't have those German rocket scientists either.

The German 3rd Reich and Imperial Japan would be ahead in many critical technologies at first. Rocketry and jet aircraft being among them. The first orbital satellite is launched by the Axis, they'd also have the first man in Space.

In the fifties, each of three blocs get The Bomb; Germany is the first to launch satellites, etc.

Germany would be late to get The Bomb anyway.

Honestly, even if the Japanese get the A-bomb first, the USA would get the H-bomb first.

Hopefully this takes the scenario out of ASB.

It wouldn't necessarily be ASB really anyway, like I said before it just requires a POD in the early 1900's. There are many ways that such an ATL could develop without any ASB. In truth, many events in OTL would be ASB from a subjective POV as it was nutty that the Japanese won the Russo-Japanese War, or that someone like Hitler could rise to power.

It would be ASB if there was any successful "sea lion", successful invasion of Hawaii, or successful invasion of Australia.

Speaking of which, in such an ATL, with Australia cut-off during the war, they'd probably have gone ahead and developed a large armaments industry and their own AFVs.

Now, what about the counter-culture of the sixties? First, the Baby Boom after WWII is subdued.

It would still occur though. War ends, soldiers go home and everyone has lots of kids.

The taste of defeat would be like the end of the Vietnam War in some ways. There also wouldn't be such a thriving economy as IOTL without easy access to Asia and Europe for trade/resources.

Second, there are no Nuremberg trials. Many think the counter-culture was directly linked to the inability of the American education system to reconcile these trials with the principles against ex post facto laws.

But there was a counter-culture movement even before WW2, just much smaller and not so familiar to most of us raised on seeing hippies and sex-cult gurus in films.

The introduction of the contraceptive pill would have a major effect too, much like what happened IOTL. That has to lead to social change.

How does the USA public reconcile their previous self-image of being a great powerful nation of destiny, and the persistent (at that time) idea that "whites" are somehow superior when the nation gets beaten in the Pacific by a bunch of Asians from a nation which they previously looked down upon as backward? Again, some echoes of the Vietnam War, but closer to home.

But none of this happens. The solution is simple: there is no counter-culture.

But there are other major changes that attack the self-image of society and make it difficult to reconcile. I don't believe the whole "counter-culture" can be just pinned on doubts about the dodgy war-crime trials. Although without those, there's less of the scepticism among intellectuals about post-war "justice".

There will indeed be changes in music, owing to emerging recording technology. But they will blend into society, much as cell phones and the Internet did in more recent decades.

Somehow, I don't believe that the American people could just go on in the same way taking it all in their stride if their nation lost a major war with far more casualties than the Vietnam War and the nuking of one of their cities even if they aren't invaded by troops at any point. The national humiliation has to have some effect.
 
ATL's counterculture could have some strong quasi-fascist elements. Cult of action and strength, arguing that traditional institutions and mores need to be overturned for the sake of Youth and Efficiency, etc. You know, like the German counterculture of the 20s.

Brings up the image of badass hippies and beatniks that got the name from beating people up.
 
Pretty big question in all this -- where's Disney? With the US facing Nazi Europe, Imperial Japan, and the Soviet Union, what is the empire of imagination to make of all this?
 
Pretty big question in all this -- where's Disney? With the US facing Nazi Europe, Imperial Japan, and the Soviet Union, what is the empire of imagination to make of all this?

Maybe a very dark Disney, and even more given to fantasy as well. The modern day would be just too frightening to deal with.

Hollywood films might go for some really depressing ideas, worse than IOTL. "On The Beach" would be candy-fluff by comparison. Loads more propaganda.

Perhaps the "counter-culture" is even more drug-soaked as people go into airheaded denial of the awful reality. The Cold War era was bad enough in our experience, but in this scenario the threat of annihilation is more terrifyingly "real" in people's perceptions. A 3-sided cold war is going to be extremely scary, much more draining on the economy.
 
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