WI: The Commonwealth Navy

OOC: The Challenge is simple. Make this scene possible. The Commonwealth Navy must include (at least) the naval units of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Bonus points if you can get other nations involved. BIG bonus points if the Commonwealth Navy includes the Indian Navy.

January 16, 1991

8:25 PM Local, 5:25 PM GMT
Abroad HMS Gibraltar (D06)

The deadline for Saddam Hussein was approaching, and everyone aboard HMS Africa knew it, even those who didn't much care about politics or the war in which they were now preparing to fight. To the men and women of HMS Africa, and indeed most of the rest of the Royal Navy, that was the reality to them.

Saddam Hussein, the thuggish, brutal, narrow-minded dictator of Iraq, had invaded his much smaller neighbor of Kuwait and was said to be preparing an invasion of Saudi Arabia. And now, there was a massive force, over a million men strong, that was gonna drive the Iraqi Army out of Kuwait.

Gibraltar, along with sister ship Malta and newer carriers Warspite and Duke of Edinburgh, were the long guns of the Royal Navy's naval forces. They were now in the Red Sea, while the Americans covered the Persian Gulf, ready to strike at Hussein. Each of the four carriers had escorts - usually one Type 82 and two Type 44 destroyers[1], and three Type 22 or Type 23 frigates - The new Type 24[2] wasn't ready to go yet, though in this case there wasn't much worry of submarine attack. There was also submarines in the area, but again, there wasn't much worry. Iraq's Navy was almost non-existent and what little there was was gonna be focused on the Gulf, and as such it was the Americans' problem.

The strikes were set to begin at about 3:00 AM, which meant takeoffs from Gibraltar had to start at about 1:00 AM. Knowing that, most of the pilots were snoozing, watching the TV or doing something to get rested, though the pilots were in some cases beginning to check over their aircraft. Gibraltar's air wing included the Hawker Siddeley AV-16 Harrier and Blackburn Buccaneer S.3A from Britain, but also used the F-4V Phantom II[3] and E-2C Hawkeye from America. The more powerful F-14E Tomcat[4] was used from Warspite, Duke of Edinburgh and the other Queen Elizabeth class carriers, but it was too big to fit easily on the Gibraltar class, and while the F-4 was a fat pig, thanks to engineering improvements made by the commonwealth, it was a fat pig that went like hell. Normally, the carriers also carried the Canadair CL-95 Poseidon[5], but with the Saudi Navy out in force and the Iraqis nowhere to be seen, they weren't needed, and the carriers needed all the deck space for the strike aircraft. While many were being armed below deck, others were being armed on the deck.

One of the RN Hawkeyes was airborne, as usual, over the area, watching for the Iraqis and not seeing much. The Saudis were fully spun up and so were the Israelis, so nothing was even getting close to the carriers in the Red Sea. On land, The RAF's Lockheed Tristar and Vickers VC10D[6] aerial refueling tankers were ready to fill their tanks on there and on the way home, allowing the strikers to easily make the 850-mile trip to Baghdad. The plan was massive - dozens of strikes would happen simultaneously. It was an organizational nightmare, but it was possible, as the allies were about to prove. History hadn't always been kind to the ships which now carried the nicknames "The Ageless Warriors", but here, things were different, and Gibraltar and her sisters were about to prove it, in the cool Arabian winter night......

[1] The Type 44 is the Canadian Iroquois class, with a different name.
[2] The Type 24 is the Canadian Halifax class frigate, though with a hull stretch, which is used to fit the Night Shark ASW rocket system, which is very similar to the American ASROC.
[3] The F-4V is a version with the Pratt and Whitney PW1120 turbofans, AIM-54 Phoenix capability and a host of electronic upgrades. First flies in 1982, used on the smaller Commonwealth Navy carriers which can't fit the Tomcat. Also used by some units of the RAF and RAAF.
[4] The F-14E is a Royal Navy variant of the Tomcat, built under license in Britain, using the same PW1120 engines as the F-4V. Also has multi-role capability.
[5] The CL-95 Poseidon is an ASW tiltwing based on the ideas of the CL-84 Dynavert, and is the standard ASW bird of vessels big enough to carry it. A smaller tilt-wing also serves as the primary heavy transport for Commonwealth Armies, and the United States Army Special Forces.
[6] The VC10D is VC10s refitted as tankers and transport aircraft, with the four RR Conways replaced with two RR RB211 engines, thus making for less noise, better fuel economy and more power.
 

Riain

Banned
We've already talked about the Arrow being the standard Commonwealth fighter, on the proviso that everyone uses the TSR2 and Harrier. The Commonwealth navy would go along the same path. The RN would have to decide deterrence (carriers and amphibs) over defence (escorts) in the late 40s as their strategy for dealing with the Soviet sub threat. That way the Brits would be ready for Suez and there'd be bigger carriers around for the Commonwealth when planes got to big and fast for Majestics.
 
What did this Commonwealth Navy do during the Vietnam War. If Australia and New Zealand go to Vietnam as in the real world how is the Commonwealth Navy going to stay out of the conflict.

I cant see Britain going into Vietnam far too many people in authority havent forgotten Suez just a few years earlier when the US forced Britain to humiliatingly withdraw. The general thinking in Britain was the US got itself into this mess it can get it self out with out our assistance. I cant see Canada getting involved either opposition to the Vietnam war was very strong in Canada. Getting involved would be political suicide for both governments.
 
It all depends upon the POD. Since apperantly here the POD is sometime around WW2 that makes it more difficult. The similar TL i'm working on right now has a POD sets in 1944 in which valkyrie in germany suceeds, ending the war in Europe in late August 1944 resulting in a greater British naval presence in the Pacific. As a consequence, the Navy becomes much more carrier centric in its look out. After the war it scraps all battleships and focuses on Carriers. meanwhile, another major implication of Valkyrie is a concervative victory under Eden in the 1945 general election. Eden works to build closer Commonnwealth ties and although his progress is little at first, as time goes by common interest through trade, existing close relations substantial military technology transfers result in the core Commonwealth becoming increasingly closer.

However, having India is ASB and any other nations would only be a hinderance to the Commonwealth. However, some regions like the West indes and Singapore could remain within the Commonwealth, perhaps as a self governing dependancy of GB in order to reap the rewards of the likes of greater defence and free trade.

Also, I don't think your are going to be able to get the Maltas completed, even just two. There was no money left at the end of the war for such vast building projects. However, perhaps a third Audacious class could be completed as the third vessel was some 60-70% complete when it was scrapped in 1945. Say post war (1960), this united navy consists of:

Royal Navy: 3 Audacious Class Carriers, 2 Implacable Class Carriers (rebuilt)
RCN: 2 Centaur Class Carriers
RAN: 2 Centaur Class Carriers

That is pretty potent and doable force if the will is there (and the political will is the hardest part). Come the late 1960's when the ships are needing replaced, the CVA-01 project becomes a commonwealth project resulting in 5 ships and the core of this new navy. However, a lot of this is hindsight and would only be possible if a lot of OTL mistakes are avoided along with a lot of luck and chance.

I will hopefully have the first part to my TL up in the next few weeks.

Russell
 
What did this Commonwealth Navy do during the Vietnam War. If Australia and New Zealand go to Vietnam as in the real world how is the Commonwealth Navy going to stay out of the conflict.

I cant see Britain going into Vietnam far too many people in authority havent forgotten Suez just a few years earlier when the US forced Britain to humiliatingly withdraw. The general thinking in Britain was the US got itself into this mess it can get it self out with out our assistance. I cant see Canada getting involved either opposition to the Vietnam war was very strong in Canada. Getting involved would be political suicide for both governments.

It depends, the correct POD could butterfly away both Suez and Vietnam, or at least result in different paths being taken when it comes to them.

Russell
 

Riain

Banned
What did this Commonwealth Navy do during the Vietnam War. If Australia and New Zealand go to Vietnam as in the real world how is the Commonwealth Navy going to stay out of the conflict.

Australia and New Zealand managed to keep 3 escorts on station, plus 2 carrier cruises, for a period of almost 4 years. Between Canada and Britain the same number of ships was kept in the Far East Strategic Reserve fleet because this was the best way they could support their Commonwealth partner without entering the war themselves.
 
All you need is recognition that a serious decline in British position is coming post-WWII and that the Commonwealth, if able to present a military force as a group, would have a much better position than if each stands individually.

Probably more cost effective if they all buy the same ships and such and likely to encourage such things if a prospective seller/manufacturer sees an entire series of customers instead of one.
 
All you need is recognition that a serious decline in British position is coming post-WWII and that the Commonwealth, if able to present a military force as a group, would have a much better position than if each stands individually.

The real problem is that the concept of imperial/Commonwealth unity was supplanted post war by NATO for Britain and Canada (and Europe for Britain) and ANZUS for Australia and New Zealand. In order for a stronger commonwealth military alliance you will need to create a consensus amongst CANZUK that a "third way" in terms of military alliances is needed as well, or imprtant. free trade could provide that initially but a Commonwealth wide free trade area post war would only be viable until the 1970's or perhaps the 1980's at a push. You will need to keep the alliance relavent.

Russell
 

Riain

Banned
I don't think the Soviet carrier is in service with the Indian navy yet, there's a lot of water to flow under the bridge between WW2 and now.

The British were the naval cornerstone for Australia and NZ up to the mid 60s, it was the purchase of the Charles F Adams destroyers, Vietnam and the British decision to withdraw from east of Suez that stopped that for Australia. To get a Commonwealth navy not too many changes need to be made to OTL, bringing Canada on board and keeping Britain east of Suez longer.
 

Blair152

Banned
I don't think the Soviet carrier is in service with the Indian navy yet, there's a lot of water to flow under the bridge between WW2 and now.

The British were the naval cornerstone for Australia and NZ up to the mid 60s, it was the purchase of the Charles F Adams destroyers, Vietnam and the British decision to withdraw from east of Suez that stopped that for Australia. To get a Commonwealth navy not too many changes need to be made to OTL, bringing Canada on board and keeping Britain east of Suez longer.
Well, excuse me. The first part of this thread says 1991. Not 1941.
 

Sachyriel

Banned
QUESTION FROM ATL REPORTER: If the Navies are integrated, does it allow homosexual recruits across the board, or is it up to individual nations or are they banned across the board?
 
Well, excuse me. The first part of this thread says 1991. Not 1941.

Yes, but the first part of the thread also says that two of the Aircraft Carriers were the older HMS Malta and HMS Gibralter. Those ships were in OTL the Malta class supercarriers designed by britain in the 1940's and cancelled at the wars end which means that the POD must be around, or just after the war.

Russell
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
OOC, I knew really heard much of the Malta class? What was the basic gist about them besides being cancelled?
 

Riain

Banned
OOC, I knew really heard much of the Malta class? What was the basic gist about them besides being cancelled?

The Malta class were much like the Midways, big armoured decks, open hangars and deck edge lifts. They were the first British carrier designed to be able to launch a 'pulse' strike, well over half the CAW in one go. They were cancelled in 1945.
 
OOC, I knew really heard much of the Malta class? What was the basic gist about them besides being cancelled?

The Malta's were Britains answer to the Midway class - a Carrier both large enough to be heavily armoured and take a substantial airgroup aswell. There were meant to be four but all were cancelled at the wars end - Britain was broke and simply couldn't afford to build them. I'm not even sure if any had actually been laid down yet.

Russell

CVMalta1.png
 
Interesting thread but I get the feeling that we're still discussing the specifics of the TL and "history", including a few raised eyebrows about the use of US equipment. A Commonwealth Navy suggests an integrated Commonwealth and therefore a tendency to buy or develop Commonwealth designed Navy Fighters.

What ever the POD we need to consider the causes and effects of this arrangment. What is nature of the relationship between the various commonwealth states? What are the member states in this Commonwealth? Are there any territorial changes relative to OTL?

France Fights on (POD Exactly What it Says on the Tin) cancels the Audacious Class for various reasons and move straight on the the Malta (or Singapore) class design. I'm not suggesting that as a POD but the Malta idea has some promise.

Here's my picture of for the fleet then (main carriers).
Immediate Post War Era (1950s-70s)
RN: 4 Malta Class carriers (Malta, Singapore, Ark Royal & Gibraltar).
RAN: 2 Centaur Class CVLs
RCN: Ditto.

Current Fleet (Late 70s/Early 80s)
RN: 4 Audacious class CVs (Think similar to CVA as originally conceived)
Audacious, Eagle, Ark Royal, Hermes.
RAN: 2 Modernised Maltas
RCN: Ditto
RNZN: 3 Attack Carriers (Think a cross between OTL's Invincible class and the USN's Amphibious Assault ships, used by the RN, RAN and RCN exclusively in the latter role, but the Kiwis having one of these carrying Harriers as a pocket fleet carrier, 1 in the amphibious support role and one in refit being rotated with 1 or other on active service at circumstances dictate).

I'd agree with most of the opinion on India, you'd need a POD from the Interwar years at the latest to make that happen.

Ok here's my idea for a POD. The Dominions lobby collectively and very hard for representation on the War Cabinet a la WWI. When Churchill refuses (him being a mid victorian in a post edwardian world etc), they say, South Africa gets represented (Gen. Smuts) so why not us? Then they go to Atlee, who raises it again and Churchill concedes for the sake of British and Imperial political unity.

First things first how does this affect the course of the War strategically and economically?
 
If there was a Commonwealth Navy (military) with the UK, Canada, New Zealand and Australia at the core, it might also include countries like Malta, Cyprus, Jamaica, Belize and Singapore for their strategic positions as bases for a Commonwealth Military Forces?

This could also include countries like Malaysia, especially after the Malaysian Emergency, if the response was by a joint Commonwealth Military force.

Between the end of WW2 and the 1960s, the carrier force would probably be equipped with a combination of aircraft like Sea Vixen for air defence and Buccaneer for the strike role, also a wider use of jointly developed aircraft etc.

As for equipment from the 1970s onwards, I doubt that is would be mostly US supplied, as a Commonwealth Military would develop its own equipment, such as the TSR-2 for the strike role (no Panavia Tornado in the TL).

I think a “Jaguar type” strike jet might also be developed, possibly including France?

The main carrier fighter/strike force could be based around aircraft such as the Harrier either project 1127 or possibly 1154 (for both the Navy and Air Forces), for 1154 this would assume that possibly a PCB type system would be developed?

This equipment would not only be purchased by the UK, Canada, New Zealand and Australia, but also by countries like Malaysia and Singapore, with Singapore perhaps using Australia much more to both “store” there aircraft and for training as well, just like Singapore does with France and the US today?

I agree it would be very hard for India/Pakistan to become a member of a Commonwealth Military, but not impossible, if the other counties that made up what was the British Empire are also part of the Commonwealth Military.

If there was also trade agreements as we this might encourage both India and Pakistan to join, though perhaps not until the 1990s?

With the UK having a permanent seat on the UN Security Council this would give the Commonwealth a powerful voice in the UN?

As for carrier numbers I agree with “Some Blokes” numbers.

That is as far as my thinking takes me, probably not much use… :eek: :D
 
Top