Hitler defeats Stalin

[Xen]

What if the Nazi's managed to take Moscow in 1941, to give a sense of irony to it, December 7 1941, Winston Churchill learns that Moscow has fallen to Nazi hands at the sametime he is told about the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor. For Churchill the loss of the Soviet Union is a major blow, but the entry of the US is a great relief.

Hitler declares war on the United States on December 9, the US replies with a declaration of war against Germany on December 11. President Roosevelt addresses the American public during his weekly radio broadcasts. He knew the war with Germany and Japan would cost thousands of lives, and could reach as high as a million. Knowing the potential casualties, Roosevelt reluctantly accepted what had to be done, in his radio address he hoped to convince the public to accept the sacrafice that was needed to end the Nazi threat.

Japan invades parts of eastern Russia, Vladivostok, and Sakhalin Island are occupied by the Japanese Army. The first major offensive by the US came on December 19, 1941 when an American-Canadian coalition occupied the Kamchataka Penisnula.

The Nazi's found occupying Russia was no easy task, inspite of the fall of Moscow, the Seige of Leningrad continued, the Russian Resistance had forced Hitler to leave 35% of the initial invasion force behind to maintain
order.

As he grew more confident in his genious and military capabilities Hitler asked for his command staff to revive Operation Sealion. However his own paranoia, kept the Nazi Army from enjoying its victory over Russia. He approached Fransico Franco and requested Spain's entry into the war; again Franco refused saying Spain could not fight such a war but sympathized with Germany. During a meeting with Benito Mussolini in Venice on New Years Eve, Hitler revealed his plan to invade Iberia to his closest ally and requested Italy's help. Mussolini agreed to send a small token force to fight along side the Nazi's.

Hitler launched his invasion of Spain on January 26, 1942, the Spanish Army was no match for the Nazi stormtroopers. Madrid fell on February 10, and the Germans and Italians began to lay siege to Gibraltar on February 13. The Nazi's invaded Portugal on February 20, reaching Lisbon on February 25. Again the Nazi blitz seemed unstoppable, first Poland, then France, and Russia, now Spain and Portugal, Hitlers forces had conquered nearly all of Europe. Gibralatar fell on March 2, the Royal Marines now occupied the Azores, Canary Islands, and Balearic Islands.

As the spring of 1942 approached, the world appeared dark, most of Europe was occupied by the Nazi's, Russia had collapsed its leaders killed or presumed dead. Japan was on a roll in the Pacific, and the green American military was still in the process of preparing itself for war.

[NapoleonXIV]

Very good, please continue. Some questions:

Is Stalin dead? HOORAY, America will get a lot out of this war after we handle the minor detail of winning it

But:

Why are the Americans adopting such a radically different Pacific plan than in OTL? Its difficult enough to land at Kamchatka but almost impossible to penetrate very far inland. Also, how are they getting there anyway past the Japanese Fleet? And why?, the entry of America into the war alone was enough that Stalin felt able to pull 17 divisions out of the Far East.

And why is Japan invading a still very alive Russia while also taking on the US? The warlords in OTL were somewhat careful not to provoke Russia after the bloody nose they got in 1939 esp after they started fighting us.

Finally, why is Hitler invading Spain and not England? Spain is not hurting him and he has little need for it, or for another several thousand miles of coast to defend and a country to occupy

[Faeelin]

Where's Japan transferring men from to have the ability to invade Russia?

[Xen]

Originally Posted by NapoleonXIV

Very good, please continue. Some questions:

Is Stalin dead? HOORAY, America will get a lot out of this war after we handle the minor detail of winning it

Yes Stalin has bit the dust, I guess I can say an artillery shell landed a bit to close to him, or he discovered the hard way you cant have a grenade explode in your lap and survive.

Originally Posted by NapoleonXIV

Why are the Americans adopting such a radically different Pacific plan than in OTL? Its difficult enough to land at Kamchatka but almost impossible to penetrate very far inland. Also, how are they getting there anyway past the Japanese Fleet? And why?, the entry of America into the war alone was enough that Stalin felt able to pull 17 divisions out of the Far East.

Its not too much different, they mainly went around the coastal area's of Kamchataka, there is no need to occupy the entire peninsula. They adopted this strategy once Japan invaded the pacific ports of Russia , basically they think if its in our hands its not in the Japanese hands.

Originally Posted by NapoleonXIV

And why is Japan invading a still very alive Russia while also taking on the US? The warlords in OTL were somewhat careful not to provoke Russia after the bloody nose they got in 1939 esp after they started fighting us.

With Stalin dead, there's going to be anarachy in Russia, warlordism, fuedalism, etc. Different people with different agendas. Besides Japan wasnt really intrested in all of Siberian Russia, they just wanted the ports and Sakhalin Island.

Originally Posted by NapoleonXIV

Finally, why is Hitler invading Spain and not England? Spain is not hurting him and he has little need for it, or for another several thousand miles of coast to defend and a country to occupy

It seems like something Hitler would do on a rainy day *LOL* Seriously, Spain is weak, Hitler is over confident, and paranoid. With his self proclaimed military genious, he realizes the US and UK could use Spain as a point to invade the rest of Europe. In his mind the allies would never penetrate the Atlantic Wall, but the Atlantic Wall didnt stretch into Spain which made it a prime target for the allies to invade. Then there is Gibraltar, seizing Gibraltar would hurt the British in North Africa, and secure the Mediterranean for the Axis.

I used Hitler's logic with Spain, he really didnt like Franco, take that and him being way over confident from his victory over Poland, France and Russia he thinks he is unstoppable. In OTL, the victory over France helped Hitler to think he could conquer Russia, which sent millions of men away from the war against Britain and gave him another front. What challenge could Iberia possibly present that France and Russia couldnt? Or so he thinks.

[MerryPrankster]

We're talking about Hitler here, a man not exactly known for rational decision-making. Of course, I imagine his military people could exert SOME influence on him.

[knightyknight]

I read that one of the reason Spain dodged the war was by telling Hitler that if Spain enter the war, there would be another coast that needed to be defended by the Axis. Even though Hitler promised the Luftwaffe's protection, Franco still refused. So if Spain and Portugal were conquered, then the Atlantic Wall will have to be expanded. Before that can happen, the Allies would of probably invaded Spain already. Invading Spain would probably just open the door for invasion for the Allies, and put them on Europe earlier.

I don't think the Nazis will be in any shape to invade Spain after just finishing off Russia. Where would they get the troops from? The Eastern Front? Transporting and refitting that much exhausted troops over Russian's frozen land is probably going to take months (even longer than how the invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece have delayed Barbarossa). The Western Front? Unlikely, considering in OTL Germany can only spare two divisions to North Africa.

[Xen]

Originally Posted by knightyknight

I don't think the Nazis will be in any shape to invade Spain after just finishing off Russia. Where would they get the troops from? The Eastern Front? Transporting and refitting that much exhausted troops over Russian's frozen land is probably going to take months (even longer than how the invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece have delayed Barbarossa). The Western Front? Unlikely, considering in OTL Germany can only spare two divisions to North Africa.

Thats why you transfer troops, the invasion took place a couple months after the fall of Moscow. Thats plenty of time for troops from the east to be transported west towards France. Some of them replace troops already in France as garrisons, while others are part of the Nazi invasion of Iberia. Compared to Russia, Iberia will be a cake walk, the army needed to do it, wont be anywhere near the strength required to take Moscow or even France. Under capable leadership the whole campaign will take a month tops, meanwhile Hitler is pumping more troops westward behind the invasion. Remember Hitler never really cared about his men, nor their ability to fight, the eastern front is a great indication of that.

[David Howery]

so, is the war in Russia over? The fall of Moscow would be bad, but it wouldn't be the end of resistance. Even with Stalin dead, there must be someone who could take the reins of govt. and control of the the still substantial armies....

[Straha]

the allies will own all of eastern europe and in 1947 russina troosp would meet with american troops at the urals

[knightyknight]

You said Moscow fell in 1941, I assume that's probably late December 1941, because in OTL the Nazis were 15 miles out of Moscow on December 5. Considering it took 2 months just to refit troops from Greece to Barbarossa, I assume that it'll probably take at least 6 months to transfer troops out of Russia during the winter. I have no doubt that Hitler could crush the Spaniards, but I just thought the timing just wouldn't be right

[Xen]

Originally Posted by knightyknight

You said Moscow fell in 1941, I assume that's probably late December 1941, because in OTL the Nazis were 15 miles out of Moscow on December 5. Considering it took 2 months just to refit troops from Greece to Barbarossa, I assume that it'll probably take at least 6 months to transfer troops out of Russia during the winter. I have no doubt that Hitler could crush the Spaniards, but I just thought the timing just wouldn't be right

Thats the POD, the Nazi's had the capability in this timeline to take it on December 7, unlike OTL. Thats why I have Churchill learning of Moscows fall at the same moment as he learned of Pearl Harbor being bombed. In OTL they didnt have that ability, they didnt have the resources to defend properly much less attack, so I changed it to Hitler sent the proper resources and the Nazi's had access to them earlier on in the campaign and boof Moscow fell.

Im going to try to get part II up and running shortly

[Xen]

Originally Posted by David Howery

so, is the war in Russia over? The fall of Moscow would be bad, but it wouldn't be the end of resistance. Even with Stalin dead, there must be someone who could take the reins of govt. and control of the the still substantial armies....

By the way the war in Russia isnt really over as in terms of defeat or surrender. Unfortunatley it has become like China, alot of different people claiming to be the heir to Stalin. There are the occaisonal spats between the "warlords" hurting their cause against the Nazi's. There is also the ethnic question in Russia as groups like the Tatars want independence.

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by Xen

With Stalin dead, there's going to be anarachy in Russia, warlordism, fuedalism, etc. Different people with different agendas. .

It does not pay to underestimate the pulling power of Great Russian patriotism. It is quite possible the USSR will collapse in a heap once Stalin is taken from the picture, but it is not a given. The army and populace were definitely prepared to follow a strong national leader (I mean, people actually followed Stalin, and they had seen him in action for the last 20 years), so if the heirs to Comrade Yosif Vissarionovich can manage to can their differences till later they stand a chance of making it through the war (unless there is a lot more steam in the Nazi thrust than the extra 30 or so kilometers to the Kremlin). Especially if Stalin 'died heroically defending his capital', he could become the ghostly figure of leadership under which Beriya, Molotov and maybe Shukov (or would the heroic figure that earlyx in the war be Rokossovski? Budenny? I don't know enough about the media image of Soviet generals) could hold the shebang together. If they offed Beriya (and who wouldn't want to?) they could very likely even count on bigger support.

I wouldn' call warlordism a given.

[Valamyr]

Originally Posted by carlton_bach

I wouldn' call warlordism a given.

Maybe not a given, but a strong possibility. And if the TL's writer whishes to consider that as the most likely result, then by all means let him. Its a given that with the fall of moscow, everything west of Astrangelsk-Astrakhan would rapidly become untenable. And if Stalin died as a bonus, reorganizing resistance would take quite awhile.

[MerryPrankster]

If Stalin's body is never found, the notion that Stalin is still alive and leading resistance to the Nazis somewhere could serve as a rallying point of sorts.

[Anthony Appleyard]

I saw this ATL as TV programs a year or so ago. Over a few years what is left of free USSR stops trying to resist. Germany tests an atom bomb in Siberia, and that has its expected results. Peenemunde becomes Europe's Cape Canaveral. But there have been many "Hitler won" ATL stories published.

[Xen]

President Roosevelt spent much of the winter of 1941-42 preparing the American people for the great task remaining ahead of the nation. The American's proved worthy allies for the British in North Africa. The Battle of Ceuta cleared the path for the allies to overcome the loss of Gibraltar and come to dominate the Mediterranean Sea.

Desperate to seize the oil fields of Mesopatamia, Hitler pressured Turkey to allow for passage of his forces through the Anatolia peninsula. His forces already engaged the British and Persian forces at the Azerbaijan border, now the British were being reinforced by the American's. When Turkey refused, Hitler went against the advice of his general's and declared war.

Hitler had become overconfident at his earlier successes in the war and come to think Germany to be unbeatable. Joined by a large Italian force, the fascist over ran Istanbul, crossing the straights into Anatolia. Just as Hitler had toured Paris, Mussolini toured Constantinople. Before the war started he promised the people of Italy to return them to the glory not seen since the days of Rome. Now the Italian Army sat in the capital of the eastern empire with their German allies.

President Roosevelt had began to become anxious to get his troops into Europe. Tempered by Winston Churchill, Roosevelt agreed to Operation Torch against Vichy Algeria instead. As Hitler's troops began to lay seige to the Turkish capital of Ankara in November; American and British troops began to pour onto the beaches of Algeria. After fighting breif battles against the French, the allies proved victorious. General DeGualle now had a place to direct the actions of the Free French military. In spite of having a general loathing of DeGualle, Roosevelt understood the importance of re-arming the French under his leadership.

The Armies of the French African Empire rallied behind DeGualle and were now equipped with American rifles, tanks and P-51 Mustangs. Roosevelt and Churchill wanted to turn the French into a formidible fighting force to help in the liberation of Europe. A similiar attempt was made trying to organize a Free Spain militia in the Baleric Islands, but with much less success.

The Turk's holdout against the German seige in Ankara, along with the Russian holdout in Leningrad had become an inspiration for the allied countries.

The Axis Afrika Corps were finally defeated in the winter of 1942/43, the first real set back of the war for the Nazis. Free French forces and their American ally arrived in Anatolia where they raced to Ankara. The USAAF pounded Nazi positions, helping the Turks claim victory over their capital.

As Christmas 1942 approached, the allies looked ahead, in all likelyhood, 1943 would be the year they would bring the war back to Europe, and the bloodshed that awaited made even the most hardened soldiers shudder.