World War III in May 1946

[oberstklein]

I have to agree, I doubt the loss of a couple of ships would be a game-changer. I would tend to think that NATO's Navy losses would probably be minimal.
Towards the end of the Pacific campaign, the U.S. developed and used superb tactics and weaponry to counter the Kamikaze suicide attacks. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaz...ensive_tactics).
This included interlocking defenses, strong picket lines of ships and the introduction of anti-aircraft shells with radio frequency proximity fuses. And, you have to consider that the Soviets aren't using Kamikaze style attacks, at this point. With the number of carriers involved in Operation Louisville Slugger, the sheer number of picket line ships would have been formidable. Just my 2 cents worth...great story so far!!

[Hairog]

English Channel off Le Havre, France

06:01

I can here em Admiral. It's those Buzz Bombs alright.

Give the order to fire. Fire with all we got. Put up a wall of flack to the East so that they will have to fly through. Fire!

[Bulls Run]

Originally Posted by oberstklein

I have to agree, I doubt the loss of a couple of ships would be a game-changer. I would tend to think that NATO's Navy losses would probably be minimal.
Towards the end of the Pacific campaign, the U.S. developed and used superb tactics and weaponry to counter the Kamikaze suicide attacks. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaz...ensive_tactics).
This included interlocking defenses, strong picket lines of ships and the introduction of anti-aircraft shells with radio frequency proximity fuses. And, you have to consider that the Soviets aren't using Kamikaze style attacks, at this point. With the number of carriers involved in Operation Louisville Slugger, the sheer number of picket line ships would have been formidable. Just my 2 cents worth...great story so far!!

I agree with this too. Besides, this is a trick by the Soviets that is only likely to work once.

[Hairog]

"Going from captured German plans, prototypes, etc to finish R&D manufacture and deploy weapons not yet deployable by the Nazis in 1945 (like Wasserfall anti-aircraft missiles) - no way Jose."

In order to continue this storyline I have to make something perfectly clear.

The peoples of the Soviet Union were not and are not inferior to any other ethnic group. Given the proper leadership and structure they are just as capable of creating wonder weapons and reverse engineering as any other nationality.

Sergo has provided that leadership and structure and Stalin has backed him totally. This is the game changer. This is the alternate timeline. This is the line of departure.

The YP80 went from drawing board to reality in 141 days. The He 162 took about 90 days.

I'm sorry but I flatly reject the notion that the Soviets were incapable of doing the same given the proper leadership, structure, resources, native talent and imported talent.

I do agree that the Soviet system was incapable but that is not the contention.

For these few projects the Soviet/Stalinist system has been suspended and a much more efficient system has been installed and the resources and proper talent has been provided.

Given the plans, the experts who designed the plans, the prototypes and a handpicked workforce the people of the Soviet Union are just as capable as their German, British or American counterparts in producing and deploying advanced weapons systems in the allotted time.

[Hairog]

Red Flight
06:11

Jees…they got the South Dakota and Mighty Mo. Crap now their shooting at us. Red Flight climb to 12000 feet…make that 4000 meters…Damn NATO…oh no they got Willy. Jees can’t they tell which one’s are the bad guys? Climb Red Flight CLIMB. They're shooting at anything that flies.

[Grimm Reaper]

Even ignoring the many technical problems, including the Soviets somehow not being picked up on radar, the US and allies abandoning the extensive series of picket ships, the powerful defenses which broke thousands of kamikazis only months earlier if the Soviets lose 1000+ aircraft to get two battleships then it's hardly clear that this wasn't a disaster for Moscow.


hairog, I'm sorry but your basic premise, that Stalin and the USSR are entirely the same, including all the disastrous effects on science caused by ideology(Lysenko comes to mind) except for Sergo who is granted a level of power and trust Stalin never granted anyone and who can miraculously find and preserve any and all manner of scientific prodigies while achieving breakthroughs equally implausible...the premise is not remotely valid.

Also, I would like to say that your repeated attempts to claim that pointing out inconvenient facts is somehow a racial attack on the USSR's people is extremely unwise.

[Hairog]

Sorry Grimm, I guess we have to disagree on this one.

[Hairog]

06:26

Lay back Admiral you’ve been wounded. Corpsman over here.

What hit us George? What the hell was that? The flames…the fire…smoke…what's that god awful smell?

I don’t know Sir it all happen so fast. We didn’t ever have time to react…Sir…Sir…Never mind Corpsman he’s dead. PREPARE TO ABANDONE SHIP!

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Hairog

Sorry Grimm, I guess we have to disagree on this one.

Hairog

Do you know of any case where, especially during Stalin's rule, the 'normal' rules were bypassed and a more efficient [as opposed to simply more brutal] system applied for some category of activity? I'm not the greatest expert but I'm not aware of any.

It's not racism to claim that social/cultural values are difficult to overcome, especially in a system as tightly autocratic as the Soviet one. I think the Soviets might be able to achieve some dramatic successes by a concentration of effort but its likely to be a bloody process and also costly in terms of resources diverted from elsewhere. Given the state of the SU by 1945 it may be able to pull a rabbit or two out of the hat but its going to be at the cost of something else in a system that is already pretty short on reserves.

Steve

[Hyperion]

I'm sorry but this shows poor research on the capabilities and operations of US Navy warships.

Given the nightmare of the Pacific front, there is no way a single kamakazi would do that much damage to a battleship.

Likewise, the idea that something traveling a whomping 400 mph would be a problem is laughable, considering a P-51 D Mustang could get close to 450 flat out.

Likewise a P-80 could do well over 500 mph.

A few suicide bombs would do nowhere near the damage you propose. Do not pass go. Do not collect $500 dollars.

[PrairieVoice]

Hey, why dont you all just give Hairog a break and sit back and enjoy the story?

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by PrairieVoice

Hey, why dont you all just give Hairog a break and sit back and enjoy the story?

His work up until now has been darned impressive.

I don't dispute the idea that the Soviets could come up with some plans like this, and use them.

I do dispute the idea that six 1000lb bombs would threaten a battleship.

The only way this would work is to hit the main ammo, and given that the only time that happened was from submarine attacks, torpedoes, or when a ship was caught in port and stationary, this is a non issue.

Damage a battleship, yes, but sink it, doubtful, especially given the defenses and vastly superior damage control practices the United States Navy has on the United States Navy warships.

[Hairog]

The White House
Washington D.C.
July 11th, 1946
06:21

What the hell happened out there today Leahy?

Well sir it appears that the Reds have made operational the German AR 234…Hitler’s Blitz Bomber. They came in under the radar and climbed to 6,000 ft in seconds and then dive bombed the battleships. All the attention was on the East where the buzz bombs were coming out of the sun.

It kind of reminds me of what happened at Midway where all the Japanese were shooting down the torpedo planes and failed to notice our dive bombers coming in. Then the gunners that did see them they thought they were those Brit Meteors jets. We have testimonials that they were ordered not to fire until too late. We just had no idea that the Reds had a jet bomber operational.

Here's the report sir. The South Dakota is down with over 750 deaths and the Missouri is a floating hulk being towed to England. They sustained 591 casualties.

That's quite a butcher's bill. How did the South Dakota go down so fast?

She was hit three times by 1000kg armor piercing bombs. The third bomb caused the forward magazine to explode which broke her back. Much like the HMS Hood that went down in 3 minutes after a lucky hit by the Bismarck.

So the Reds are cashing in on their captured German Wonder Weapons and scientists. You say it was a jet bomber?


Yes Sir.

We have jet fighters in the area do we not?

Yes sir but they were ordered not to enter the naval combat zone for fear of friendly fire incidents by Admiral Lee. The USAAF P80s were also lured into chasing after a couple of dozen decoys. The Navy wanted it that way claiming they could take care of their own. After all they have over 20 Fleet carriers on station right now. What they lacked was their own jet fighter.

And why is that?

They wanted to develop their own and refused to work with the Army on an operational P80 variant. Instead they are trying to develop their own based on some German model but are having trouble with the tail section. So meanwhile they were caught too low and too slow to catch the new Soviet jet job. There is good news.

And what would that be?

The Soviets appear to only have 6 jet bombers and one was shot down.

What about those reports about the V1 Buzz Bombs hitting the ships.

Well Sir it appears they where a decoy all along. No one saw one of the V1s hit any ship.

Alright Leahy I'm ordering Nimitz to use the P80 until your own plane is a reality. We need the Navy and we need them bad for our plans to proceed. You'll just have to use the P80 for the meantime. From what I understand it is the fastest and best plane in the air. The Navy has to be able to defend itself now. Not tomorrow but now.

Yes Sir. On another subject Sir…we just lost two battleships…

Yes I understand. Damn it we just stayed a little too long. We can't underestimate the Reds again. End Operation Louisville Slugger now.

It was only a delaying tactic anyway. Just to buy us some time and that’s what it did. Two weeks and a very steep price for old Joe to swallow. That ought to slow him up a bit next time he decides to run through an open door just because it’s open. Send my condolences to all involved and I will address the nation on Wednesday about the losses of two fine ships and hundreds of brave young men.

Well put sir. How long before you think the Reds will figure out our real plan?

Hopefully not for another month at least we should be in position by then. At least that is the plan. You are dismissed Admiral … Churchill is calling and he is a real windbag.

Yes Sir.

[Grimm Reaper]

Even if we accept the highly dubious premise of one bit of Stalin's R&D being run this way, also Sergo being able to magically identify all persons of scientific value and take them and their families under his protection, there is still no way it could compete with, let alone exceed, the Western Allies.


If it were reversed, the US run by a ruthless dictator whose ideology was destroying entire fields of science for decades and who was a ruthless paranoid incapable of trust, even if the tyrant permitted one tiny R&D exception(this in utter contrast to his entire record) is it even remotely plausible that this could begin to compete with a free and democratic Russia enjoying conditions and attitudes similar to the US during WWII and able to deploy vastly superior resources of every type? Of course not.

[Hairog]

Again Grimm we have to agree to disagree. What more can I tell you.

I'm afraid I will continue with or withour your permission.

[Grimm Reaper]

No! I won't let you continue without my permission!

RELEASE THE HYDRA!!!

[Hyperion]

A single hit and two near misses and your claiming that USS Missouri is a floating wreck.

Hairog, your lack of research is astounding.

[Hairog]

Did you watch the video? Did you like it?

[CT23]

How's the allied nuke situation going?

[Hairog]

Nukes are way too easy. This is not going to end soon. Too many tricks up my sleeve for that.