Native American animal domestication

I've been pushing this around in my head for some time and even posted something on the "other" website.

Native Americans. I'm wondering how early domestication of animals would affect their social economic development. Would it lead to an early agrarian society? Higher development and consolidation? Hence would it give them a better chance to fight off European immigration?
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
I've been pushing this around in my head for some time and even posted something on the "other" website.

Native Americans. I'm wondering how early domestication of animals would affect their social economic development. Would it lead to an early agrarian society? Higher development and consolidation? Hence would it give them a better chance to fight off European immigration?
Well, what would you have them domesticate?
 

Lusitania

Donor
The Inca domesticated the Llama very early on, while the natives in North America domesticated the dog.
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Well, we used dogs way back in the day, though if you want something bigger you have to go farther south I think. Dogs were amazing at their jobs though: Dogsledding is one way to make use of their energy, a team of dogs can carry a family across frozen wasteland. If you use a travois, this kind of frame made of an isosceles triangle you can get a dog to pull lighter loads individually. Heck, you could train dogs to help you in the hunt, make them cause buffaloes to stampede over a cliff or guide them into a waiting trap where you kill the buffalo.

It depends on what you want these animals to do and whether or not it would be easy enough for a native guy to do it in his spare time to train it.

I mean, you're not going to get Mountain Lions pulling Dogsleds or Bear Cavalry or Snakes carrying messages. :p

But that's unrealistic.

Pick an animal, pick a tribe then try to explore the ramifications.

For example, if the Ojibwe and Odawa to co-operate on animal training techniques as well as fishing (not exactly domesticated, but it's not that big of a stretch to imagine they would be able to keep fish alive to breed them) then you have an increase in dogs that are trained and people who can use them, more fish, so a bigger population and more labour-saved; more time for more sex, more people who know how to train dogs and raise fish on farms. You can use dogs to carry large amounts of fish, and a trading system around the great lakes region would increase the population further from the cheaper foods, so more dogs...

*starts thinking of puppies*
 
Maybe domesticated was the wrong term.

I'm looking at a food animal. I know alot of todays animals were bought over. I'm thinking something like Maybe pigs or chickens were already here to be used. Or maybe even catching migrating ducks and clipping thier wings to use for eggs and meat.
 
The Inca domesticated the Llama very early on, while the natives in North America domesticated the dog.


Good god... :(

They didn't domesticate dogs because dogs aren't native to the Americas. They brought dogs with them, just as Aborigenes brought the ancestors of the dingos to Australia.

Getting back to the OP's question, various fowl like ducks or turkeys might be good domestication candidates.


Bill
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Maybe domesticated was the wrong term.

I'm looking at a food animal. I know alot of todays animals were bought over. I'm thinking something like Maybe pigs or chickens were already here to be used. Or maybe even catching migrating ducks and clipping thier wings to use for eggs and meat.

So dig a pond, fill it with water, breed some fish in the water, use a net to catch them. It's like farming; where they gonna go? Straight up and into the belly of a hungry native.

Or you could try and harness the buffalo, ride it. I mean, native people in BC have a coming of age story about riding whales, so it's not like it would be terribly hard to jump on a buffalo...

Yee Haw!
 
Problem is that 'traditional' domestic animal i.e. pigs, chickens, cows etc. aren't native to NA. In fact, pigs were one of the vectors or smallpox that effectively wiped out the Mississippi culture in the 16th century- it wasn't the people diseases, it was the aimal diseases crossing species.

With native animals, well if an animal could be domesticated, it was. Now, if pigs or some such existed in NA indiginously, then things would be very different. Perhaps the Amerindians capture some bison and breed them over the cnturies to be more docile, more cow-like.

If they don't have to hunt, then they can herd and that would make them less nomadic. Furthermore, they'd have draught animals which would allow them to plough the prairies.

Any POD, however, in either case would have to be a long time back, so far back that the butterflies would make any alternate history mere fantasy.
 
there has been a lot of these threads, biggest thing that came from them is there are no animals available to the American Indians that they could easily domesticate other than what they did. Bison are too stubborn, and would have been very difficult to bread without loss of life, due to size, would have been hard for elk or moose to be used for the same reasons. now if Reindeer/Caribou were to make it down then probably, but the warmer climate would probably be to harsh on them. Unless the NA Horse survived there isn't a very good animal that could be used
 
Good god... :(

They didn't domesticate dogs because dogs aren't native to the Americas. They brought dogs with them, just as Aborigenes brought the ancestors of the dingos to Australia.

Getting back to the OP's question, various fowl like ducks or turkeys might be good domestication candidates.


Bill

Good god yourself Bill. In both cases you're talking about more than 40,000 years ago. And obviously both groups continued to domesticate dogs and derive new breeds of them.

And sheesh...Natives already had domesticated turkey and ducks.:rolleyes:

Cortes's invaders found them for sale in the markets of Tenochtitlan. The Hopi also had domestic turkeys. Remember that it was domesticated turkey that was introduced to Europe from the Americas, not the other way around. And Spanish invaders also described domesticated ducks among numerous South American tribes.

Horses didn't die out in the Americas until 8000 BCE by some theories. One theory I've seen is if they'd been domesticated, they might've survived since domestication kept horses in Eurasia from being killed off by the Ice Age.

Aztec vs Spanish cavalry engagements. Someone should do a TL.
 
Peccaries are an American pig-like animal, maybe they could be domesticated for same reasons the pig was?

I also think there are American chickens, but they were brought there by Polynesians.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Good god... :(

They didn't domesticate dogs because dogs aren't native to the Americas. They brought dogs with them, just as Aborigenes brought the ancestors of the dingos to Australia.

Getting back to the OP's question, various fowl like ducks or turkeys might be good domestication candidates.


Bill

Great Gracious God,
since they were the people who domesticated them then they domesticated them, the question was not wether they domesticated in the AMericas but if they domesticated them. SO HA
 
See the "alternative Horse" thread for a sometimes contentious discussion of this topic.

There were camelids in NA prior to the Younger Dryas (YD), some of them quite large.

Perhaps, somewhere in Florida or Louisiana or Texas a pre-clovis (another debate) individual takes a young llama-like creature under their wing and raises it, determines it is a source of fibre (something felt-like I expect initially) and one thing leads to another. Eventually you have a large domesticated animal (llamas are more tractable than camels) that is a source of fiber, labor, meat, perhaps milk, and maybe even transportation.

The image below shows the skeleton of a camelid from Florida about this time, along with a somewhat scaled up contemporary llama to give an idea of the size of such a beast.

Just a thought, I don't think it lets too many butterflies loose.

Picture1.jpg
 
And considering that Native Americans hunted Bison ever since the end of the Younger Dryas period I'd say that domesticated Bisons are out of the question.

We've got a winner. :D

Some animals are plainly impossible to domesticate, like for example rhino's.

One of the theories of Jared Diamond is that Europe pretty much conquered the other continents instead of the other way around because amongst others the high amount of domesticable animals in Europe compared to those in other continents.

http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393317552
 

NothingNow

Banned
The Inca domesticated the Llama very early on, while the natives in North America domesticated the dog.
Don't forget OTL they Domesticated the Alpaca, Guinea Pig and Turkey, along with the Llama. The Dogs Came over with the First Paleoindians so they don't count.

A large Camelid would be a Good candidate, as would Equus simplicidens or E. scotti might also make a good candidate.

Heck, you can draw a light cart with dogs or a Llama!
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Guinea Pig /QUOTE]

:p YUM!

Anyways, by that token it could be said that keeping animals trapped until we decide to kill them is throughly domesticated. Natives near the great lakes and elsewhere would use traps that we'd leave to check later to catch many things like rabbits.

I use the great lakes as an example a lot because, I grew up there. Never had rabbit though...
 
I use the great lakes as an example a lot because, I grew up there. Never had rabbit though...

That too bad. It's pretty good.


Anyway, you want more domesticated animals in the Americas pre-Columbus there are two ways you can have outside cultures introduce them:

Pacific peoples from Hawaii can make it to America (they have already crossed vaster oceanic distances to get to Hawaii in the past), bringing with them pigs and/or chickens. An early introduction of these animals to the Americas would lead to huge butterflies though as the continent will now have people who are used to the diseases Europeans bring, which will put a hamper on colonisation. Although pigs and chickens are unlikely to get across the Rockies or the deserts, at least unless a regular trading network is established.

The Norse can bring sheep, goats, horses and cows with them to Vinland (as well as ravens). A Norse colony that survives for a longer time could mean that those animals get introduced to the locals (as well as better sailing, metalcrafts and writing; the butterflies would go crazy).
 
Animal domestication

There are ways of doing this, but they have their drawbacks.

1) Have a subset of the North American ice age animals that went extinct survive. I did a scenario years ago where one of the North American llama species survived in a remote corner of North America. Most likely candidates for survival: North American species of llamas and peccaries, North or South American horses, Mammoths, and some of the big (up to several hundred pounds) South American grazing rodents. There is no guarantee that any of those could be domesticated. Zebras apparently can't be, so North American horses might not be easily domesticated. North American llamas might not be either. Mammoths would be unlikely domesticates. The Indians would probably have to domesticate something less formidable first and learn the tricks of handling domestic animals before they tackled something that formidable. The North American peccaries might have a shot if they were less fierce than the South and Central American species that survived.

The problem with scenarios like that is that the divergence would have to be at least 8 to 10 thousand years ago. No Indian individual and probably few Indian tribes of our world would ever have existed with even a minor change that far back. I sort of tried to finesse that issue by having my surviving llamas survive in a little pocket up in the mountains, protected by a disease that killed off human hunters who tried to encroach. Even with that, butterflies would change a lot of things in a hurry.

2) Have the animals that the Indians domesticated historically spread further. Llamas, alpacas, and guinea pigs in the Andes made a decent group of domesticated animals, especially the llamas and alpacas. The problem was that they were adapted to the cool mountains, and didn't do well in the tropical lowlands to the north, east, and west of the Andes. If some lowland Peruvian group had managed to breed llamas that could withstand the heat and humidity of the coast early enough I could see llamas spreading along the sea routes that connected coastal Ecuador to the coasts of Western Mexico, and from there to the nomadic tribes of northern Mexico, making it easier for the Chichemecs to adapt to horses and probably giving the Spanish an even harder time than they had historically. Metallurgy apparently spread by that route. Llamas could have too. Of course depending on the timing of all this, you still might not have a lot of the historic Indian groups or individuals.

3) Have domestic animals from elsewhere arrive earlier and/or spread faster. There is some (controversial) evidence that chickens spread from Polynesia to the coast of Chile in late pre-Columbian times. They hadn't spread through most of the continent though. Get them there a little earlier and add the pigs that the Polynesians spread to most of the islands they colonized, and you could end up with some interesting changes. There is some (again controversial) evidence that Polynesians may have been in sporadic contact with the ancestors of the Chumash Indians in southern California. Get domestic chickens and pigs spreading from there too and you might have something interesting. For that matter, you could have a major early Spanish settlement voyage get pushed into the North or South American coasts by a storm and establish early populations of cattle, horses, and pigs, giving the local Indians an extra fifty to a hundred years to adapt to them. If horses started spreading in North America in the very early 1500s, for example, that would make for a very different Indian culture facing white settlement. Again, you've got to be careful with this, because in all likelihood at least some of the major Great Plains tribes would either not exist in this scenario or not be plains Indians.
 
Last edited:
Top