1939: Danzig before Prague

Inspired by the no guarantee of Poland thread.

What if the Germans, having occupied the Sudetenland and toppled the Benes government, BUT NOT having occupied Prague or pushed Tiso to declare independence, start a crisis over Danzig in March or April of 1939?

Without the "wakeup call to Europe", do the British and French wash their hand of "Polish intransigence"?

Is there a Munich II, or a German-Polish war? If the latter, as I suspect, is there still a division of the East with the USSR? How much does the lack of Czech armor hurt the Wehrmacht?

And most importantly, with Poland fallen (and a defenseless Czechoslovakia then occupied at leisure), but no war yet in the West... what is the next crisis?
 
that's quite an interesting hypothesis.
Howerver, without checozlovakia in germa's hand, poland invasion is much more difficult: how do you think the warplan could be devised?
or do you think that an all-out bluff?
the idea of Munich II is intriguing and not at all unreasonable, since there were reason (historical, political, german minority) to support the idea of a frontier adjustment.
Do you think H would push on? or M trying something similar toward yugoslavia?
 
the idea of Munich II is intriguing and not at all unreasonable, since there were reason (historical, political, german minority) to support the idea of a frontier adjustment.

Chamberlain wasn't hsotile to Munich 2 even OTL :)mad:), but both Germans and Poles certainly were, and I don't see why this should be differant on either side.

Do you think H would push on? or M trying something similar toward yugoslavia?

Unlikley: nothing much in Slovenia, and Yugoslavia wasn't hostile to Germany.
 
there is always Dalmatia to bicker on (promised to italy il the london pact 1915 and then given to yugoslavia).
a fair share of the support on early fascism was about "vittoria mutilata"
 
there is always Dalmatia to bicker on (promised to italy il the london pact 1915 and then given to yugoslavia).
a fair share of the support on early fascism was about "vittoria mutilata"

That's an Italian goal, though. The German and Italian war aims never completely synched up.
 
They could try to do something in the Baltic republics, but that would be more of a German-Soviet concern and not for the Western powers to meddle in. We could see a German-Soviet war in 1940, if something like this happens. After all, this is Hitler we're talking about. Anything is possible.

The Germans could try to demand the part of Schleswig that Denmark took after WW1, maybe occupying Norway as well or at least turning it into a puppet with basing rights for the Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe. I don't think Britain would allow Germany to get a chance to get its fleet out of the North Sea, which it spent all of WW1 trying to prevent. That could start WW2. If that doesn't, I don't know what will.
 
As far as Munich II - I agree that the great powers might go for it (Germany, least willingly!) Of course, Hitler did swear that the Sudetenland was the last claim he has to make in Europe, but thats far less of a betrayal than destroying Czechoslovakia.

The problem, as I understand, is that the Poles were utterly against a Danzig compromise. If someone wants to contradict that, please do. If war breaks out over failed negotiations and a stunt like Gleiwitz, Chamberlain may be appalled but I don't think he or Daladier declare war.

Disadvantages to the Germans: loss of the Skoda material and the Slovakian front. But they still have overwhelming superiority in at least airpower, armor, and doctrines.

A serious question is what the USSR does. The Poles will never accept direct help, and an alt-M-R pact may be in the works anyway. If so, Poland is doomed. The lines in the East may be a little different though.

And as for next - mailinutile2 is reading my mind. Memel would never be more than a small crisis because the Lithuanians themselves won't resist. If general war has been avoided, then either Italy takes the opportunity to attack Yugoslavia or Germany presses on - and that means Barbarossa.

If the former, the allied powers may finally declare war on Rome, hoping to defeat at least the weaker Axis power and show that aggression has consequences (however delayed). Italy alone is doomed of course, which is why I think Hitler might declare to save them and launch his invasion of the Low Countries.

If it's an early Barbarossa - well, that becomes interesting. No occupation of the West but no war there either.
 
war over Memel? intriguing
however, why do you exlude a negotiated solution?
I wasn't thinking Memel-it was annexed in March 1939. I was thinking Germany tries to get a protectorate or some arrangement like that with Lithuana or the rest of the Baltic republics. If the Germans tried to gain influence farther north to "contain the Red menace", then a war with the Soviets is very likely, especially if there's no M-R pact to smooth relations. And if it sounds crazy, well, so was Hitler. Eventually, I think the Soviets would win, but it would be much less likely than OTL for longer, since Germany is throwing all of its might into the conflict. I think it's likely the Western powers would stay neutral in such a conflict and let both of their enemies destroy each other.
@mikegold: I don't think it would matter if the Poles opposed the results of a Munich II; the Czechs opposed Munich I, and look what it got them. I think that the Poles would scream and yell, but they would have to resign themselves to it because they know they can't challenge Germany without the Western powers behind them.
 
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What about a Memel-for-Danzig exchange (with some corrections on poland-lithuanian borders)?
That way poland would have its port and germany the territorial contiguity.

Regarding CCCP, I do not see it rushing to aid Poland even without a M-R Pact. Sure, NatSoc was an ideological enemy, but the Pislduski' regime (or his successor's) was crypto-fascist if not fascistat all.

and CCCP HAS BEEN at war with poland in the early '20
 
I wonder why there is implicite assumption, that "crisis" would mean "war". If, Germany just take Danzig, Poland, without backing by western powers, could do nothing about that.

The really interesting things would be Polish next move. I see three possibilities.

1) If West would make "Munich II", it could be red light for Poland, clearly showing, that West is NOT interested in any help. Which, could lead to either allying with Germany (at the moment, they were still willing to) or trying to making a desperate alliance with Central European states. The problem with latter is that there were no partners at the moment. Czechoslovakia and Lithuania was distrustful. Romania anf Hungary, though generaly friendly, was in German camp. So, either miracle happens, or Poland lands in German camp.

2) If - for some reason - West decide to back Poland, history would probably be similiar to OTL. England would do nothing more than signing treaties, Germany would take Czechoslovakia anyway, and then would attack Poland. With, more or less the same result.

the Pislduski' regime (or his successor's) was crypto-fascist if not fascist at all.

Generally it's good habit to not use words, which meaning is not known.
 
What about a Memel-for-Danzig exchange (with some corrections on poland-lithuanian borders)?
That idea again. :rolleyes: Memel was not a suitable substitute for Danzig. Consider rivers, railroads and existing trade connections.
Do you think it otherwise?
after all it was a right-wing military-backed regime result from a military coup
And? Corporatist principles? Single-party state? Social Darwinism?
 
And? Corporatist principles? Single-party state? Social Darwinism?

hadn't the Apartitic block become something like it?
and of course transferring powers from the parliament to the government points in that direction.
I remember a Pilsduski interview in a french journal (around '25, but I'm not 100% sure) where he stated explicitly that his regime was NOT fascist.
I think that the fact that he felt compelled to make that statement means that his regime coul be viewed (at least from an external point of view) as a fascist regime, ar at least as a paternal-dictatorship one
However, I'm not Pole, so I could be wrong about it, but that's how it is described in some history books. If you have more precise info, please provide them: I would be happy to have a better comprension of that
 

Eurofed

Banned
Ohh, one of my preferred WWII PoDs. Let's delve in it once again.

First of all, to work this PoD requires a Hitler with a different personality, or a really influential advisor that can talk him into moderation at the right moments, or the November 1938 assassination attempt to work (the plausible successors would be Goring or a Wehrmacht junta). Alternatively, Hitler slightly delays the acceptance of Chamberlain's terms at Munich, and the generals overthrow him.

IOTL, ever-charming Adolf felt *cheated* by the outcome of munich, deeming himself deprived of the chance to ride in Prague as a victorious conqueror, and so he invaded Czechia at the first opportunity. He utterly overestimated the Wehrmacht's strength in 1938, and was oblivious that a fully-shaped military coup was ready to spring if he had given the order to invade. Likewise, as it concerned Poland, he initially made some half-hearted attempts to woo Poland as an anti-Communist statellite, offering territorial compensations in Ukraine for the Corridor. But when Poland turned them down, he totally switched to the idea of conquering that nation and turning it into the first Lebensraum playground.

So we need a different Hitler or a different German leadership after Munich. But it is quite feasible.

As it concerns the consequences of leaving post-Munich Czechia alone:

Cons: without the pilfered gold resources of Czechia, German economy risks a crisis by rearmament overspending. To avoid it, the pace of rearmament shall have to be temporary slowed down. Also, without Czech industries and armaments, German economy shall be somewhat less powerful, and its army slightly less strong for a while.

Pro: the Western powers continue to deem Germany a reliable and trustworthy power that keeps its word about Munich and go on with the appeasement. Nobody really takes Hitler's bit seriously about the Sudetenland being his "last claim in Europe", since every informed person in Europe knows that recovering the Corridor has been a most dearly-felt irredentist aspiration of the German people at large since Versailles. But the Corridor, like Austria and the Sudetes still rank as "reasonable" irredentist German claims, which the Western powers are content to satisfy in order to win Germany as an anticommunist major asset.

Once Germany reopens the Danzig-Corridor issue, it is practically sure that Britain and France do Munich II. Whatever the initial diplomatic feints, in the end Germany is going to claim the 1807 borders, i.e. Danzig, West Prussia, and Upper Silesia, possibly offering Poland to keep an extraterritorial access to Gdynia. The Western powers are going to accept.

It is a coin's toss what Poland is going to do. The wise course would be to back down, since without allies, against a stronger Germany, and a quite likely opportunist Soviet attack they are hopeless. And ITTL Germany is still genuinely open to have it as an anticommunist satellite and not a Lebensraum playground. But interwar authoritarian ultra-nationalist Polish leadership was anything but reasonable, and they might think they can at least exhaust Germany in a war of attrition. However, if a German-Polish war occurs after Warsaw defies Munich II, and if Germany puts any decent effort at concocting a decent casus belli (e.g. an irredentist German insurrection in Danzig, which Polish forces move in to suppress), the Western powers are going to leave stubborn Poland to its fate.

WIthout the military resources of annexed Czechia, and the previous need to slow down rearmanent somewhat, the war with Poland is going to be somewhat more painful for Germany, but a complete victory nonetheless. Perhaps they take 2-3 extra months to win. Now, the Western powers would certainly object if conquered Poland was subject to the brutal OTL treatment, but we are assuming a more moderate German leadership, so the peace deal is going to be a "reasonable" one that the Western powers would accept without any big trouble: the 1914 borders for Germany, and vassallization of Poland.

Stalin's reactions are an incognita. Poland is never ever going to ask or even accept Soviet help, but a M-R Pact is ASB with the Western-German detente. IMO the most likely outcome is that Stalin gambles sending the Red Army to invade eastern Poland just like OTL, rather than risking the Wehrmacht in the Kresy. Neither Germany nor Russia are really ready to fight each other in 1939, so after some skirmishes and hasty negotiation, a border much like OTL would be drawn.

While the other great powers are focused on Poland, Italy is going to make its move. Without the German annexation of Czechslovakia, it is much less likely that Mussolini would blatantly annex Albania, and may well keep it as a satellite. However, he is almost sure to attack Yugoslavia, fostering Croat separatism and using it as a casus belli, in an alliance with Hungary and Bulgaria.

Differently from what other posters have stated, it is almost ASB for the Western powers to intervene for Yugoslavia if they are still in the appeasement strategy towards the Axis. Britain never gave a rat's butt about the integrity of Serbia's little empire (they would have cared for Greece, but Mussoloni is going to prefer Yugoslavia as a target), and France stopped to care when it switched to appeasement and abandoned the strategy of building up the Little Entente as an anti-German tool. Moreover, in the appeasement strategy, Italy too is useful as part of the anticommunist front and the Western powers would very much prefer Mussolini's ambitions to be vented up in the "harmless" western Balkans than on their own territories and colonies.

Yugoslavia is partitioned: Italy annexes Dalmatia, Slovenia and Croatia are set up as Italian satellites, Hungary annexes Vojvodina, Bulgaria annexes Vardar Macedonia.

Alternatively, it is also possible that Mussolini and his Balkan allies manage to get most of the above (except Slovenia and Croatia) if he makes the Yugoslav crisis part of the deal at the Munich II conference. The Western powers are quite likely going to accept claims on Dalmatia, Vojvodina, and Vardar Macedonia. Yugoslavia may either accept, or be left alone to fight Italy and its allies, as Poland. Musso wouldn't get his Croat satellite directly, but humiliated Yugoslavia would become even more instable, and a Slovenian-Croatian successful secession supported by Italy is quite likely to succeed anyway.

Hungary, having been rewarded with the southern Slovakia at Munich and Vojvodina later, totally joins the Axis camp. Even if Poland backed down at Munich II, Germany is in the position to slowly pressure Czechoslovakia and Poland into satellite status, by economic and political pressure, which the Western powers won't bother about.

What happens later in Europe is totally dependent on who is in charge in Germany and what Stalin decides to do. If it's a smarter Hitler, he spends the next couple years building up his military and coalition for the anti-Soviet crusade, which Mussolini eagerly joins, as well as Hungary and Poland, perhaps even satellite Czechoslovakia. Romania is a wild card, it may be wooed into the Axis, stay neutral, or be defeated by Hungary (with Axis support) into a war for northern Transylvania, and beaten down into Axis vassal status.

A detente largely ensures between the European Axis and the Anglo-French. The Western powers happily stay neutral in the Axis-Soviet scuffle, and buy popcorn, seeing their appeasement strategy giving fruit. They give support to whichever side seems to be losing, trying to foster mutual exhaustion. And indeed a peace of exhaustion, with borders someplace between the 1939 lines and the Dniepr, is the most likely outcome. Stalin would be fully alert against an Axis attack, and the Red Army certainly can't defeat the Axis without an Allied second front and Land-Lease. Moreover, Japan is quite likely to join for the Axis, as a solo attack against the undivided Anglo-French-American might is quite foolhardy. Otherwise, Japan remains mired in the Chinese quandary. Finland stays neutral (unless Russia attacks it fearing its move on Leningrad, when the war starts) and the Baltic states become a battleground one way or another. Memel is a non-issue since Lithuania cedes it without a fuss like OTL.

If someone else is in charge of Germany but Hitler, they never attack Russia. Most likely Stalin remains cowed by the Western-Axis detente and WWII is averted. At the most Stalin may attack Japan, which ends with Russia holding Manchuria and Japan holding Korea and Sakhalin. Japan remains mired in China for a while. China never goes communist or at the very most it splits into Red North and Capitalist South. It (or the southern half) eventually grows into modern levels without the terrible trials of the communist experiment. Germany remains the economic powerhouse and the dominant power of Europe, while Italy and Japan reinforce their great power status as they continue their industrialization to OTL post-WWII levels and beyond. America remains a global economic powerhouse, but a great power among many. The EU doesn't happen without a full Franco-German reconciliation, which is only likely if Russia becomes a threat. However a mini-EU made up of the Axis nations and Spain is quite likely. France and Spain face a difficult path to decolonization, as America, Russia, and perhaps the Axis too supporting nationalist movements. Both fascism and communism remain respectable ideologies for long, and the former never becomes a pariah. Communism may still get eventully discredited as evidence leaks of Stalin's crimes.

However, it is still quite possible, if the least likely outcome, that Stalin decides to attack Europe when he's completed the build-up and modernization of the Red Army. The man was paranoid and prone to make bad mistakes about the ability and willingness of other powers to fight, so it is quite possible he thinks the European powers weaker than they are, or that he needs to do a pre-emptive attack against the aborning European anti-Communist front. If this happens, a WWII still occurs, with the OTL roles of Soviet Russia and of Germany-Italy reversed. Japan isn't going to stay neutral, but it is a coin's toss which side it joins. America is only likely to join if attacked by Japan. Anyway, the anti-Soviet coalition eventually reaps a complete victory (how easy depends on whether the Euros have Japan or America as an ally). The Soviet regime is overthrown, Communism becomes the pariah ideology of the 20th century, Russia is cut down to 1992 borders minus East Karelia (if Finland was belligerant), Rostov-Don-Kuban, and Outer Manchuria. It may or may not experience a Putin-like nationalist revanchist swing later. Europe ends up divided between democratic and fascist (but non-genocidal) blocs, where each build their own mini-EU even more tighly-bound than OTL. When fascism falls, a federal EU is born.
 
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hadn't the Apartitic block become something like it?
and of course transferring powers from the parliament to the government points in that direction.

Sorry, that's not enough - in that way US presidential system is "more fascist" than, say, British.

It's really hard to call Sanacja a right wing moevement. There was no pressure to put the role of state over individuals, there was - although opressed - oposition, economic freedom was generally granted. I was authoritarian regime, but far from any totalitarism, including fascism.

1939 parafascist ultra-nationalist Polish leadership was anything but reasonable

Next one. First, if you need invective, just use something simplier. Say, "Polish leadership were pack of shithead", or whatever possibility English language gives. At the moment, Polish "ultra nationalist" from ONR were sitting in Bereza Kartuska. And those, who - for rational reasons, like Studnicki - wanted kind of alliance with Germany, were absolutely marginalized. Moreover: allying with Perfidious Albion, although was a mistake, was quite rational. So, "anything but reasonable" is far, far away from truth.
 
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Sorry, that's not enough - in that way US presidential system is "more fascist" than, say, British.

It's really hard to call Sanacja a right wing moevement. There was no pressure to put the role of state over individuals, there was - although opressed - oposition, economic freedom was generally granted. I was authoritarian regime, but far from any totalitarism, including fascism.

Regarding fascism, yot have not ot see it as '40 Nazism.
early fascism in italy ('25) also had a parliamentary opposition (althought oppressed) and a economic freedom was generally granted.
I was thinking something on the lines of Franco's Spain
 
Regarding fascism, yot have not ot see it as '40 Nazism.
early fascism in italy ('25) also had a parliamentary opposition (althought oppressed) and a economic freedom was generally granted.
I was thinking something on the lines of Franco's Spain

Still, there was no ideology suitable for strenghtening state. Franco's Spain could be a comparison (still not very good - after all, Mościcki was academic, not soldier, I'd also say, that role of Catholic Church was LESS important in Poland than in Franco's Spain) - still, it's hard to call it "fascist". Sorry, there is lack of most important element, i.e. domination of state/collective over individual.
 
From Stalin's eyes

Still, there was no ideology suitable for strenghtening state. Franco's Spain could be a comparison (still not very good - after all, Mościcki was academic, not soldier, I'd also say, that role of Catholic Church was LESS important in Poland than in Franco's Spain) - still, it's hard to call it "fascist". Sorry, there is lack of most important element, i.e. domination of state/collective over individual.

Ok.
but my point is: from S point of view, would it seem something different from an ideologically oppositor (maybe less right-wing and more bourgeoisie-aligned)?
And having to choose if aiding one or the other, would he prefer someone CCCP had a war in the '20 or someone who had not?
 
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