WI: The Hittites intervene in the Trojan War

Historico

While, In the Bookstore earlier today...I found an rather Interesting book titled, In Search of Troy which it provided startling evidence of Troy bieng in Hittite Records and maybe that the Trojan war may have happend historically.

ERIC CLINE: The Hittite text mention battles that took place. The Hittite records indicate through the war that the Mycenaeans were not only interested in this region but had been actively fighting on and off for more than two centuries.

NARRATOR: The tablets show that Troy was an ally of the Hittites. If Troy was attacked the Hittites were likely to come and fight alongside them. So Homer’s legend appears to have been based on a real conflict between two super powers of the late Bronze Age, the Mycenaeans and the Hittites.

What If, The Hittite's would have intervened on their client state and defeated the Achean forces and continued the fight on the Greek Mainland? What would be the consequenses of an Troy ruled Greece before the Arrival of the Dorian Tribes...Could the Hittite Empire never fall with an strong, controllable ally in the west to deflect the Sea Peoples?
 

MarkA

As the Trojan War is a legend, I don't see how this could happen. Even the Hittite texts you mention if they are actually talking about Iilium (and that is doubtful) they paint a very different picture to Homer's Troy. The Iliad is a poetic piece of art, albeit in my opinion the greatest ever written. Unfortunately, history and poetry do not always coincide.

No alliance could prevent the climatic changes that led to the collapse of the civilizations bordering the Aegean. When the rain bearing winds changed so that they now came low from the west, the mountains of western Greece trapped them and the bulk of the rain fell on the western mountain slopes and the sea. The resulting famines and presumably revolts brought down the Palace civilization of Mycenean Greece.

There seems little doubt now that the Myceneans were the Sea Peoples. At the very least they were a significant section of them. The Athenians were not newcomers either, so presumably they too were of Mycenean stock. Who were the mysterious Dorians?

Probably they were a mixture of the surviving peasants who of course spoke Greek and must therefore have formed the majority of these people and the refugees from the climate changes that affected Nothern Europe as well so leading to a domino affect. Once the Hungarian plains alternately flooded and then were affected by drought, the native populations moved away. In turn they pushed other tribal groups out of their territory.
 

Ivan Druzhkov

Historico said:
What If, The Hittite's would have intervened on their client state and defeated the Achean forces and continued the fight on the Greek Mainland? What would be the consequenses of an Troy ruled Greece before the Arrival of the Dorian Tribes...Could the Hittite Empire never fall with an strong, controllable ally in the west to deflect the Sea Peoples?
Click to expand...
Well, as MarkA said, the Sea Peoples were probably Myceneans dispersed by the Dorians. A Trojan-Hittite invasion could probably start the Exodus going sooner and at a greater intensity than OTL. Maybe here their invasion of Egypt succeeds at an earlier date. Certainly, this doesn't bode well for the Abrahamic peoples living in Palestine...

As for a surviving Hittite empire, that might also depend on what Egypt's doing at the time. I don't know enough about this period to provide more details, though.
 

Historico

Ivan Druzhkov said:
Well, as MarkA said, the Sea Peoples were probably Myceneans dispersed by the Dorians. A Trojan-Hittite invasion could probably start the Exodus going sooner and at a greater intensity than OTL. Maybe here their invasion of Egypt succeeds at an earlier date. Certainly, this doesn't bode well for the Abrahamic peoples living in Palestine...

As for a surviving Hittite empire, that might also depend on what Egypt's doing at the time. I don't know enough about this period to provide more details, though.
Click to expand...

But How could it spark the Exodus sooner and with an Greater Intesity than in OTL. I think after nock Ahhiywana out of the Picture, The Second Hittite Empire would probably take more of an active Role in the Medeterranien.

The Trojan's might be able to contribute to the fall of the Hittite Empire once they build their strength up and ally with the Libyan Tribes...Or even Egypt may fall to an stronger Sea People Invasion?
 

Tyr

The Trojan war isn't a legend, it was real just greatly exagerated.
Though since exactly what happened is so unknown its hard to say what woudl happen here.
 

robertp6165

Historico said:
What If, The Hittite's would have intervened on their client state and defeated the Achean forces and continued the fight on the Greek Mainland?
Click to expand...

The plausibility of this scenario would depend on the actual timing of the Trojan War. There is some disagreement as to which level of Troy represents the time period of the historical Trojan War. Troy VI, which matches the Homeric descriptions of the city in great detail and which was likely the "Wilusa" which was allied to the Hittites, was destroyed sometime between 1300 BC and 1260 BC, and most archaeologists argue that it was destroyed by an earthquake rather than as a result of the Trojan War.

Troy VIIa, which is the level most often associated with the Trojan War, does not closely match the Homeric descriptions of the city. It was a much poorer and less powerful place. But it was clearly destroyed by enemy action about 1180 BC.

If Troy VI is the "Homeric Troy," then your scenario could happen, because the Hittites are still a going concern during that time period. By 1180 BC...the commonly accepted date for the destruction of Troy VIIa...however, the Hittites would have themselves been overthrown by the invading Sea Peoples and Phrygian and Kaskan tribesmen.

I personally think that Troy VI was the Homeric Troy. There is evidence that parts of the town was destroyed by fire (some archaeologists blame this on fires started by the earthquake, but it could just as easily be result of enemy action). The remains of the town so closely match the Homeric descriptions that it seems unlikely that they could be talking about the poor, impoverished town which followed. And there is an interesting argument made by some archaeologists and historians that the story of the Trojan Horse may in fact be a metaphor for the earthquake which destroyed Troy VI. The horse was sacred to Poseidon, god of the sea...who was also the god responsible for earthquakes. So possibly the Greeks were able to capture the city BECAUSE an earthquake threw down the formidable fortification walls.

So my theory, for what it is worth, is that the Great King of Ahhiyawa/Mycenae captured and destroyed Troy VI, after it had been severely damaged in an earthquake, about 1260 BC. The city was then re-occupied...probably by survivors of the Greek sack and earthquake...and became Troy VIIa. Troy VIIa was then destroyed in 1180 BC by the Sea Peoples or the same invaders who brought down the Hittites.

If that is the case, then your scenario of Hittite intervention in the war could well have happened. We have to ask why it didn't. And a reason comes readily to mind. The early 13th Century BC was a period of conflict between the Hittites and the Egyptians, culminating in the famous Battle of Kadesh (indeed, King Alaksandush of Wilusa was one of the allies of the Hittite King who apparently fought at Kadesh). The Hittites were also heavily involved in warfare against Assyria during this period. So more than likely, the Hittites simply did not have forces to spare to go to the aid of Wilusa when it was attacked by the Great King of Ahhiyawa (or Agamemnon of Mycenae, whichever you prefer).

And even if they did have troops available to intervene in the siege, it is unlikely they could have spared them for an invasion of Greece. So while Troy may have survived, it is unlikely it would have had major impacts otherwise. It would still have been damaged by the earthquake, and would have been a much less properous and powerful place afterward. The Hittites and the Trojans will still likely fall to the Sea Peoples in the next century. Obviously, the content of the ILLIAD, assuming it still is composed, will be greatly different...more tragic, less heroic.
 

Tom_B

Suggested Alternative POD

robertp6165 said:
The plausibility of this scenario would depend on the actual timing of the Trojan War. There is some disagreement as to which level of Troy represents the time period of the historical Trojan War. Troy VI, which matches the Homeric descriptions of the city in great detail and which was likely the "Wilusa" which was allied to the Hittites, was destroyed sometime between 1300 BC and 1260 BC, and most archaeologists argue that it was destroyed by an earthquake rather than as a result of the Trojan War.

Troy VIIa, which is the level most often associated with the Trojan War, does not closely match the Homeric descriptions of the city. It was a much poorer and less powerful place. But it was clearly destroyed by enemy action about 1180 BC.

If Troy VI is the "Homeric Troy," then your scenario could happen, because the Hittites are still a going concern during that time period. By 1180 BC...the commonly accepted date for the destruction of Troy VIIa...however, the Hittites would have themselves been overthrown by the invading Sea Peoples and Phrygian and Kaskan tribesmen.

I personally think that Troy VI was the Homeric Troy. There is evidence that parts of the town was destroyed by fire (some archaeologists blame this on fires started by the earthquake, but it could just as easily be result of enemy action). The remains of the town so closely match the Homeric descriptions that it seems unlikely that they could be talking about the poor, impoverished town which followed. And there is an interesting argument made by some archaeologists and historians that the story of the Trojan Horse may in fact be a metaphor for the earthquake which destroyed Troy VI. The horse was sacred to Poseidon, god of the sea...who was also the god responsible for earthquakes. So possibly the Greeks were able to capture the city BECAUSE an earthquake threw down the formidable fortification walls.

So my theory, for what it is worth, is that the Great King of Ahhiyawa/Mycenae captured and destroyed Troy VI, after it had been severely damaged in an earthquake, about 1260 BC. The city was then re-occupied...probably by survivors of the Greek sack and earthquake...and became Troy VIIa. Troy VIIa was then destroyed in 1180 BC by the Sea Peoples or the same invaders who brought down the Hittites.

If that is the case, then your scenario of Hittite intervention in the war could well have happened. We have to ask why it didn't. And a reason comes readily to mind. The early 13th Century BC was a period of conflict between the Hittites and the Egyptians, culminating in the famous Battle of Kadesh (indeed, King Alaksandush of Wilusa was one of the allies of the Hittite King who apparently fought at Kadesh). The Hittites were also heavily involved in warfare against Assyria during this period. So more than likely, the Hittites simply did not have forces to spare to go to the aid of Wilusa when it was attacked by the Great King of Ahhiyawa (or Agamemnon of Mycenae, whichever you prefer).

And even if they did have troops available to intervene in the siege, it is unlikely they could have spared them for an invasion of Greece. So while Troy may have survived, it is unlikely it would have had major impacts otherwise. It would still have been damaged by the earthquake, and would have been a much less properous and powerful place afterward. The Hittites and the Trojans will still likely fall to the Sea Peoples in the next century. Obviously, the content of the ILLIAD, assuming it still is composed, will be greatly different...more tragic, less heroic.
Click to expand...

This line of analysis leads to a simpler POD possibility. What IF there was no earthquake? Proably two variants--not at all and seriously delayed.
 

Historico

Tom_B said:
This line of analysis leads to a simpler POD possibility. What IF there was no earthquake? Proably two variants--not at all and seriously delayed.
Click to expand...

True, Let's say there is no Earthquake at all and Wilusa/Troy...The Achaens, Have any much harder time dealing with Troy, who allies with Hatti against The Achaens. All though the Hittites send just an small amount of Men and equipment to Troy against Ahhiyawa. The Great King Is defeated, This will do either two things.

1. It conviences, Hatti to becomer stronger allies with an Non-earthquake Troy and later on, actually invade the Greek Mainland.

2.This might, get the other Arzwa cities to get their attack together and rally behind the House of Piram, and eventually the other Ionian city states(Mileanda will be an hard task to over take). An Stronger, Trojan State in Western Anatolia, loosley control the remaining Ahhiywanan city states, and ally themselves with the sea peoples?
 

MarkA

Leej the Trojan War is a legend as there is no evidence that the traditional site of Ilium is the site of Troy. Even if we accept it is, the archaeological evidence does not match the literary evidence. Despite the valiant efforts of robertp6165, the traditional confusion over Troy vi and vii a is not resolved.

robertp6165, your assertion that Trojans fought at Kadesh is extremely interesting. What is your source? The only Hittite tablets I know of that allegedly mention the places and peoples associated with the Trojan War are not as clear cut as some people claim.

Wilusa and a name similar to Alexander (Paris) are mentioned but philology seems to indicate that they are not the same as Troy or Alexander. The same goes for the other claimed names in the texts.
 
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