Dominion of Southern America

[Glen]

Originally Posted by DuQuense

Tea Plantations are a Capital Sink for the first 10~12 years of setting up, before the first harvest.
After the failure of the 1850's attempt, the British wouldn't sink more capital into them, and it took till the 1880's [Cotton Barron era] for the South to have the spare capital for long term projects.

That's important to know. Obviously the facts on the ground ITTL's Southern America are quite different...

[Glen]

Originally Posted by thekingsguard

Not too bad! I would have seen Oregon go maybe a tad more northern though.

Thanks! I would have thought so, too, but the geopolitics of the time in the end dictated that the Northwest Company would have resisted inclusion of Gray's Island and everything west and north of it in the farmers' new state. And given the amount of territory they did gain, it made sense to put some limits. Also, Congress is looking forward to a time when MacKenzie will become a state, and without those more southern regions, it would be a poorer state overall.

Any Chance of a North American Map once more states start filing in?

From me? Eventually. However, one of our wonderful mapmakers might take up the challenge ahead of time (hint, hint, everyone!)...

[Glen]

Originally Posted by DuQuense

The tea races started in the 1830's and drove the development of the clipper Hull in the 1840's.
By the 1870's whe had the first of the steel keel ships, [wood keels are only good up to 150 or so feet] which lead to the steamer-sailers [up to 300~350 feet]
By the 1890's the clipper was replaced by the super schooners.

Good to know.

Whe also had a very large number [OTL] go to Cuba. OTL they learned Spanish [like in Argentina] and assimilated.? Wonder if they will pick Spanish or English ITTL?

English probably, though I wouldn't rule out Spanglish.

"They were imported to do the jobs too dangerous to use expensive slaves".

I know that most of the Ice sold in India between the end of the ACW and start of WW 1 came from New England. [Special designed insulated hull schooners ]
There are also stories about teams of slaves cutting pond ice in winter for the Plantation's Ice Houses.
But I have never seen anything about the Deep South's or Antilles Ice Supply. I would assume it to be New England, but would be cautious about that assumption.
?Anyone have better info?

Good question. Don't know much about the 19th century ice trade.

?What happed to the Potato Famine ITTL?

So far we've just had the crop failures from known potato diseases and weather. It remains to be seen whether the blight will make an appearance soon, or what the English reaction will be....

IIRC the first recorded battle between the US Army and the Sioux was in the mid 1820's. Only 20 years before the TC Railroads were proposed. Western Indian History will be Different ITTL.

Yep, sure will.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Nugax

I strongly disagree - the Canadian plains are not amiable to settlement until improvement in farming techniques, and are likely to be rail roaded much later. Look at how long it took the americans to lay the Northern pacific routes - they added the next tier north every twenty years or so, without the driving Canadian need and British wallets I don't see the Canadian north being railroaded till 1900-10. And at that point you'll see the shift away from small farmers moving to the land as productivity increases - the American great plains reached their population peaks in the 1890s after all!

Why on earth would the Americanising the Canadian plains give triple their population numbers - when that would be more than twice the people per square kilometer than the Dakotas and Montana managed in the OTL? Sure lots will go to *Alberta for the oil, but thats the 1950s onwards.

Points made!

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Julius Vogel

The British had a devil of a time creating a viable and useful imperial tea growing and preparation industry in India OTL and I would imagine they would in this timeline too, whether they try in India, DSA or Malaya.

IIRC a lot of the trouble Britain initially had was technological - how to transport the right kind of viable tea plants or seeds in useful quantities to India from inland China, which took a lot of experimentation. Then they had to find viable plantation sites, then develop local expertise sufficient to prepare the crop in such a way that European consumers would recognise as tea worth buying. The East India company put a huge amount of time, effort and money into this OTL and I imagine there would be no easy way to short cut that process. Once the Empire has this internal expertise though, I can imagine a sufficiently determined person could replicate it in the DSA

Wow, that does sound like a lot of work to accomplish this.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Ironically, the best place for the British to grow tea is not in the DSA, but Hispaniola. Cuba is mostly flat, while Puerto Rico and Jamaica, while montane, don't quite reach ideal tea elevations.

It should be noted Tea can grow in colder climates, provided winters aren't cold. Hell, it can grow in Cornwall. The flavor isn't the best, and the yield is much lower however. Thus, I can't think of anywhere reasonable to grow Tea in the mainland of the - even the Southern Appalachians and Ozarks get too cold, and California has the elevation, but is lacking in moisture.

Hmmm, Hispaniola as Tea Capital of the West Indies....has promise!

[thekingsguard]

Originally Posted by Glen

Thanks! I would have thought so, too, but the geopolitics of the time in the end dictated that the Northwest Company would have resisted inclusion of Gray's Island and everything west and north of it in the farmers' new state. And given the amount of territory they did gain, it made sense to put some limits. Also, Congress is looking forward to a time when MacKenzie will become a state, and without those more southern regions, it would be a poorer state overall.


From me? Eventually. However, one of our wonderful mapmakers might take up the challenge ahead of time (hint, hint, everyone!)...

I might take a swing at a map in a few updates. I admit to being deeply curious to what the Western and Canadian states will look like when done... Mississippi really thre me a curve!

[Eurofed]

Originally Posted by Venusian Si

But why would the immigrants themselves prefer OTL Rupertsland to the American Great Plains if they had the choice? Sure the land is cheaper, but the lack of the proper tech is really going to discourage people when there's easier land to deal with down south.

Well, even in this USA, the northernmost parts of Canada (except Alaska and Yukon, after the gold rush) are indeed going to remain largley as empty as IOTL. But both the OTL US and the Canadian Rockies and Plains are going to become more popolous than OTL, and southern Canada to become roughly as popolous as northern US states, simply because the USA is still going to receive a lot of European immigrants, the other areas can absorb only so many people, and the pressure to open up free space in the West and North is going to drive the construction of the necessary infrastructures.

[Venusian Si]

Originally Posted by Eurofed

simply because the USA is still going to receive a lot of European immigrants, the other areas can absorb only so many people, and the pressure to open up free space in the West and North is going to drive the construction of the necessary infrastructures.

While I understand your point, the idea [or perhaps it's the wording] that any region in America could reach that point comes off as odd from an American perspective. Admittedly, one could argue that's what helped caused Manhatten's population decline, but it seems like what you're talking about won't happen until the invention of Suburbia,...and even then, the Canadian West lacks a lot of conditions that made the Sunbelt such a popular destination choice among Northern Americans.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Eurofed

Well, even in this USA, the northernmost parts of Canada (except Alaska and Yukon, after the gold rush) are indeed going to remain largely as empty as IOTL. But both the OTL US and the Canadian Rockies and Plains are going to become more populous than OTL, and southern Canada to become roughly as populous as northern US states, simply because the USA is still going to receive a lot of European immigrants, the other areas can absorb only so many people, and the pressure to open up free space in the West and North is going to drive the construction of the necessary infrastructures.

I really don't get your point here. Why are you claiming TTL's USA will see much more immigration? I mean, it could, provided immigration restrictions don't pass similar to OTL's 1920s. But up until then (Chinese exclusion act aside) there was nothing stopping as many people from coming to the U.S. as wanted. The only way to boost U.S. immigration dramatically upward would be if things were far worse in portions of Europe, which would make more people want to leave.

The other way I could read what you mean is that since the U.S. doesn't have the South, all those migrants need to go somewhere else in the U.S. But IOTL they didn't go to the South. Most of the South, after an early smattering of Germans, received essentially no immigrants, with the one notable exception being New Orleans. Of course, Southern California is also in the DSA, but this area will see immigration regardless. Add to that the DSA being more of a draw to immigrants than OTL's South, and if anything, I'd say immigration will be slightly reduced compared to OTL's "North" + Canada. This is before even taking into effect Latin America, where a stronger Mexico and UPSA could snap up a lot of migrants - possibly enough to cancel out no Brazil and then some.

[Glen]

The Gitchigumee Territory has a long and odd story in American history. Located as it is on the north shore of Lake Superior (indeed, 'Gitchigumee' itself means 'Big Water' and is an American Indian term for the Lake it abuts), it is a long strip of the great north that developed through two major historical forces; fur trapping and relocation of 'Uncivilized' Indians.

Even in colonial times, the lands around the Great Lakes were prime fur areas, with both the Hudson Bay Company and the North West (later Northwest) Company vying for control of the area (until the Hudson Bay Company essentially lost the battle). A network of trappers and traders developed in the region, connecting northern Indian tribes with white trappers and traders, many of whom intermarried and their descendants, the Métis, became the dominant force in trading in the Lakes Region. As wildlife become more scarce and settlers moved in to the more southern regions around the Great Lakes, the Métis traders either moved on or settled down themselves, but the poor soil and harsher weather of the north shore of Lake Superior acted as a barrier against such change, especially with the vast north of the Hudson Territory just beyond to continue to provide furs for trade. These predominantly Francophone Métis would play an important role in the future of the Gitchigumee.



While many natives of the USA east of the Mississippi eventually accepted assimilation and joined more or less the mainstream of American society, intermarrying with settlers of European extraction, some refused to conform to American 'civilization' and instead were forced to relocate by America's military, the Legion. At first, only a few tribes were moved to the far north, while most were moved west, predominantly west of the Mississippi. However, it soon became US policy to resettle all tribes to the Hudson Territory in the far north, including those who had previously been removed to West of the Mississippi if they would not accept American ways. The land that formed the Gitchigumee was not officially part of the Hudson Territory given it drained into Lake Superior rather than Hudson Bay, and so originally was part of the old Northwest Territory. Instead of being a settlement for Indian Tribes, the Gitchigumee became a weystation between the rest of the United States and the tribes of the Hudson Territory. Some Indians did choose to stay in the Gitchigumee, those who at the last moment regretted their decision to accept exile in the far north. Those who did go on to the Hudson Territory faced long, fierce winters, but were free to practice their way of life without interference from the Americans to the South, and could bring some of civilization's comforts to their people through continued fur trade with the Métis of the Gitchigumee (and to a lesser extent, hardy Quebeckers along the border). This trade kept the Gitchigumee a viable economy, supplemented by fishing on Lake Superior and dairy farming later, as well as money from the Federal Government for working as Indian Agents. Indeed, the entire administration of the Hudson Territory was run out of the Gitchigumee Territory.

Gitchigumee Territory and Lake Superior:

[Glen]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'd tend to agree here too. With the exception of Vancouver and the most productive parts of Southern Ontario, settlement of *Canada will proceed more slowly. It's one of the reasons I think much of Canada is going to end up Francophone ITTL - no one else will really want the land, but the Quebecois, with their incredibly high birthrates, will be migrating west. I think northern Ontario and Manitoba will probably be mainly Francophone, for example.

Ah, well then you will find the Gitchigumee post interesting!

[thekingsguard]

Hooray! Our first major possibably new Canadian State!

Gitchigumee is certainly a mouthful though... Can't wait to see more!

[Astronomo2010]

well USA is becoming a superpower in terms of territory and population.

[stevep]

Glen

That sounds nasty. The deportations OTL caused a lot of deaths but dumping all the Indians in the sub-arctic is going to really screw them. [Unless by accept American ways that is a genuine alternative rather than the OTL - we want you're lands so you're going]. Even the Gitchigumee region I think is pretty poor and barren, part of the Canadian shield that hindered access to the prairies, mainly marshy forest.

Could there be a chance that a lot of Indians, when they are forced to move or earlier, when they see the writing on the wall, try and escape south to the DSA? If so what would their treatment be?

Steve

[Glen]

Originally Posted by stevep

Glen

That sounds nasty. The deportations OTL caused a lot of deaths but dumping all the Indians in the sub-arctic is going to really screw them. [Unless by accept American ways that is a genuine alternative rather than the OTL - we want you're lands so you're going]. Even the Gitchigumee region I think is pretty poor and barren, part of the Canadian shield that hindered access to the prairies, mainly marshy forest.

Could there be a chance that a lot of Indians, when they are forced to move or earlier, when they see the writing on the wall, try and escape south to the DSA? If so what would their treatment be?

Steve

It does sound nasty - and it is! But it is less so than the Trail of Tears of OTL. The choice to assimilate is a genuine one ITTL, as opposed to the false promises of OTL. For example, much of upstate New York and Ontario still possess their Indian populations who opted to assimilate (by which we mean they give up communal land ownership (but can make individual land claims like anyone else!), and they accept US citizenship and follow US laws and pay US taxes. Many also convert (predominantly to one of the Deist denominations!) though this is not a requirement to stay on the land. It is only the die-hards who refuse to pay allegiance to the US who actually are relocated.

But yes, the land is marginal at best - for farming. However, the actual numbers moving are relatively small, and those who are adept (or can become so) at hunting-gathering can survive there. It is a hard life, and there are many deaths among initial arrivals (and also a reason why many drift back into the Gitchigumee to resettle - they usually can't afford to go further at least at first).

There was some movement of indians south to what would become Indiana around the late 18th early 19th century, but quite frankly, anyone willing to take up life among the Civilized Tribes probably would have been fine taking the pledge and staying put (though some didn't realize it at the time). The undefeated 'uncivilized' native Americans continue to retreat farther and farther west. That's one reason the Indian Wars grow more and more difficult, as seasoned, bitter veterans take their experience to the Plains.

[stevep]

Glen

That makes a big difference. I suspect the bulk of the remaining eastern tribes will assimilate under those conditions. Was fearing it was a case of the US making a deal until they wanted to take the land anyway.

Steve

Originally Posted by Glen

It does sound nasty - and it is! But it is less so than the Trail of Tears of OTL. The choice to assimilate is a genuine one ITTL, as opposed to the false promises of OTL. For example, much of upstate New York and Ontario still possess their Indian populations who opted to assimilate (by which we mean they give up communal land ownership (but can make individual land claims like anyone else!), and they accept US citizenship and follow US laws and pay US taxes. Many also convert (predominantly to one of the Deist denominations!) though this is not a requirement to stay on the land. It is only the die-hards who refuse to pay allegiance to the US who actually are relocated.

But yes, the land is marginal at best - for farming. However, the actual numbers moving are relatively small, and those who are adept (or can become so) at hunting-gathering can survive there. It is a hard life, and there are many deaths among initial arrivals (and also a reason why many drift back into the Gitchigumee to resettle - they usually can't afford to go further at least at first).

There was some movement of indians south to what would become Indiana around the late 18th early 19th century, but quite frankly, anyone willing to take up life among the Civilized Tribes probably would have been fine taking the pledge and staying put (though some didn't realize it at the time). The undefeated 'uncivilized' native Americans continue to retreat farther and farther west. That's one reason the Indian Wars grow more and more difficult, as seasoned, bitter veterans take their experience to the Plains.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by stevep

Glen

That makes a big difference. I suspect the bulk of the remaining eastern tribes will assimilate under those conditions. Was fearing it was a case of the US making a deal until they wanted to take the land anyway.

Steve

It does - it's still playing hardball on a cultural level, but people at least have a chance at a decent life. Better than OTL I would agree.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Astronomo2010

a nwew map of the USA would be good to show the expansion and grow of the USA.

Yes, this is quite true. No time for now to put it together, but maybe someone else might (hint hint) - if not, I will eventually get one together.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Eurofed

I disagree in that I see no valid reason why TTL Canada should not get at least the same development as the northernmost row of US states, and both somewhat more popolous than their OTL counterparts. The USA are still going to get a very large amount of European immigration thanks to its immigration-friendly policies and social mobility, the focus of its internal development is necessarily going to be oriented more northward than OTL USA (so northern routes shall be built earlier than OTL), so northern states are going to be filled more than OTL. The Eastern cities are going to hold only so much immigration. I agree that the Francophones shall a substantial component of the western immigration, but that shall create political pressure to build infrastructure in the northern territories which shall hence attract more European immigrants.

I agree that there will be a greater portion of US immigration going to the north than OTL, but it may be that the winner are the regions that were the northern US states of OTL - but time will tell...