Questions Regarding Ottoman Army

[Guerrilla Republik]

At around 1750, how big was the total Ottoman Army? Was this army stationed primarily in the Balkans, or distributed throughout the entire Empire. And could the Ottomans bring Mesopotamian, Syrian and Egyptian units to fight in the Balkans, Caucasus and such?

[Keenir]

Originally Posted by Guerrilla Republik

At around 1750, how big was the total Ottoman Army? Was this army stationed primarily in the Balkans, or distributed throughout the entire Empire.

throughout the empire - Persia was still a big enemy.

And could the Ottomans bring Mesopotamian, Syrian and Egyptian units to fight in the Balkans, Caucasus and such?

they could (though the railroads weren't all finished).
the Ottomans had the same problem as any other nation: they could take units out of Syria and Mesopotamia - but that would then be that many fewer units left to defend Syria and Mesopotamia.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Keenir

they could (though the railroads weren't all finished).

In 1750, 'weren't all finished' is an understatement.

[Saepe Fidelis]

Yeah, though remember in 1750 or so there were big problems with the Janissaries that virtually crippled the Ottoman army, the Sultan couldn't pursue a foreign policy that that Janissaries didn't like. Also, they were stationed in Constantinople all the time, so although there may be regular army units on the fronts, the elites were always in Constantinople or there abouts (I seem to recall the Janissaries setting up a quasi-autonomous junta in Serbia- anyone know anything about that?)

[MNP]

Originally Posted by Saepe Fidelis

Yeah, though remember in 1750 or so there were big problems with the Janissaries that virtually crippled the Ottoman army, the Sultan couldn't pursue a foreign policy that that Janissaries didn't like. Also, they were stationed in Constantinople all the time, so although there may be regular army units on the fronts, the elites were always in Constantinople or there abouts (I seem to recall the Janissaries setting up a quasi-autonomous junta in Serbia- anyone know anything about that?)

Do you mean the Patrona Halil stuff? I think Finkel says he basically ruled the government for maybe a month or so before they got rid of him.

[Keenir]

Originally Posted by Saepe Fidelis

Yeah, though remember in 1750 or so there were big problems with the Janissaries that virtually crippled the Ottoman army, the Sultan couldn't pursue a foreign policy that that Janissaries didn't like.

or an internal policy, most days.

(not sure if it was in the 1750s or more the 1800s that the Janissaries started marrying and having kids - before, they were forbidden by law from doing either...but when they got powerful enough...)

Originally Posted by Philip

In 1750, 'weren't all finished' is an understatement.

my bad - I thought he was asking about the late 1800s.

but the rest of my statement still applies.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Philip

In 1750, 'weren't all finished' is an understatement.

The tender by the Japanese to supply Bullet Trains to the Ottoman Empire still being deliberated on.

[Saepe Fidelis]

Originally Posted by MNPundit

Do you mean the Patrona Halil stuff? I think Finkel says he basically ruled the government for maybe a month or so before they got rid of him.

That rings a bell, but I recall reding that they actually seized Belgrade or something. Can't find a quotation and maybe i's my brain goin gcrazy- can anyone help?

[Kome]

Originally Posted by Saepe Fidelis

That rings a bell, but I recall reding that they actually seized Belgrade or something. Can't find a quotation and maybe i's my brain goin gcrazy- can anyone help?

Weird i remember reading about something like that when i was doing research for a sandbox game. Something about the Serbian uprising. But now i cant find anything about it.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

A little background to set the stage and answer some questions. After the Treaty of Passarowitz in 1718 there was a reform movement that felt, that although it was not true that the empire was ignorant of European developments, there was as casual disregard for critical new scientific and technological developments, which was causing the military to fall behind in a modern trained officer corps and an effective command and control system.

The Patrona Halil revolt was in 1730 and was not against reform, but rather what it perceived as the dissolute elite - who unfortunately were the patrons of reform, so their removal caused the effort to dissipate, not to be taken up again until 1774.

Commanders along the Hapsburg front were generally aware of modern developments and applied them to their units, but there was no mechanism for transmitting knowledge to the center, which was run by career bureaucrats. As a result, when too many of the experienced cadres were lost, as in the Second Siege of Vienna, knowledge was lost with them.

As for the size of the army, it's difficult to say - it would really vary quite a bit.

In the 1768 war, the main Ottoman army was 75,000 men, about a third cavalry, with the Crimeans present in similar number, but mostly cavalry.

The Ottomans would have to rely on the Balkans and Anatolia for their manpower - the rest of the empire would be useless for this, any any attempt to mobilize any manpower would result in revolts.

This is a particularly low point for the Ottoman military - it's been at peace for a while, without any real reform of the military occurring. I wouldn't put them up against anyone with much chance of success. In alliance with a modern power they could get something done.

It wouldn't be until the middle of the 19th c that the Ottoman army would become a formidable fighting force again.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Abdul Hadi Pasha

It wouldn't be until the middle of the 19th c that the Ottoman army would become a formidable fighting force again.

Was that after the Japanese supplied the Bullet trains for the Army?

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Originally Posted by Cook

Was that after the Japanese supplied the Bullet trains for the Army?

And Toyotas 4X4s on which to mount their rail guns.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Abdul Hadi Pasha

And Toyotas 4X4s on which to mount their rail guns.

Definitely!

The ultimate symbols of Generic warfare down the ages; A Toyota Hilux with a .50cal mounted on the back and a dozen guys with AK-47 clinging to the sides.

[MNP]

Originally Posted by Saepe Fidelis

That rings a bell, but I recall reding that they actually seized Belgrade or something. Can't find a quotation and maybe i's my brain goin gcrazy- can anyone help?

Ah, there was a guy who was basically a bandit chieftain during I think the Great Turkish War or maybe he was some sort of rebel. They named him commander one year because there was no one else that could do the job available and no money to pay them, but he couldn't control his bandit troops very well. I want to say he had seized Belgrade before he was legitimized.

OTOH, maybe it was just before the rise of the Koprulus which would be too early.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Originally Posted by MNPundit

Ah, there was a guy who was basically a bandit chieftain during I think the Great Turkish War or maybe he was some sort of rebel. They named him commander one year because there was no one else that could do the job available and no money to pay them, but he couldn't control his bandit troops very well. I want to say he had seized Belgrade before he was legitimized.

OTOH, maybe it was just before the rise of the Koprulus which would be too early.

You guys are thinking of something else. The Patrona Halil Revolt was in Istanbul. I'm not sure if anyone ever seized Belgrade, but during the Napoleonic Wars, Serbia attained autonomous status, but the Ottomans retained a garrison in Belgrade.