Sexiest Topic on AH.com: ALTERNATE ACCOUNTING

I knew you were eager to read about this. :)

Let us keep to the following basic hypothesis:

The Arabic numerals do not catch on in Europe for general usage.

At least not, say, until during the 16th century.
The are known as an academic and exotic curiosity, but never become standard in either mathematical theory or commercial practice.



(More precisely, I consider that Fibonacci (or an alternate of him) does not obtain a version of Al-Chowarismi's book, or does not take it as important as IOTL. In particular, he still writes a book on the resolution of linear and quadratic equations and the abacus, but not numerals and symbolic computation. In order to do what Fibonacci has done I think it suffices to have access to the scriptures of Euclid and Diophantos.)


So around 1250, we have an Occident where some educated people know how to solve quadratic equations; but to perform concrete numerical computations, they have to resort to their abacuses.


What are the consequences?


Most obviously, computing is harder, and it is likely that fewer people will learn it, or people will learn it to a lesser extent than IOTL.


But I have an additional suspect:
I suppose that the development of the balance sheet and of double-entry accounting (which roughly took place in the 14th and 15th century) would be seriously harmed.

While writing up inventory lists of goods is practically as old as scripture itself,
and the step towards inventories of debts and claims is a minor effort for the human desire for abstraction,
I think that the structure of accounting will not take the form it actually has since these days.
The basic target of traditional accounting is: make it easier to double-check - usually one checks by finding identical items in several places, or by adding items and checking sums.


But if you express everything in roman numerals, you cannot check sums in writing anyway!
So there is no need to develop that form in the first place.

Of course a 15th century balance, translated into Roman numerals, sheet would provide useful information to a merchant from my ATL.
To check or extract information, he would have to put the numbers into his abacus, compute there, and get back to the account; similar to what an accountant did in the 1970s and 1980s with an electronic calculator. :)
But I think for all these circumstances, the users of Roman numerals would develop only rudimentary forms of bookkeeping.


What's your opinion on that?
 
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You've got an interesting concept there. It's interesting to think about this - without Arabic numerals, mathematical and scientific progress in the west would be severely retarded... it's interesting to think about how this might work out.

You've made the point that quadratic equations etc. can still be solved... I wonder how this'll effect physics, though. Seems like it'd be hard to work out physics problems using Roman numerals. Trigonometry too, come to that... perhaps it's just that I've been reading too many military TLs, but my thought here is how this'd prevent the development of artillery technique at its OTL rate. (Although casting technology and so on would probably continue to advance...)

Hm... this'd seem to be giving the Islamic world a boost, from what I can see.

It's interesting - with something that basic, it's hard to figure out all the butterflies. A very original POD concept, that's for sure!
 
Unless they "arabisize" Roman numerals somehow you've just butterflied the financial and scientific revolutions! :eek:

Q: does zero still get adopted? That alone has monumental ramifications...
 
Rather than butterflying away the financial and scientific revolutions, this simply moves them into the Arab and Indian worlds.
 
Is there any place exposed to arabic/indian numerals and the zero that didn't adopt it? It seems to be one of those things that's so useful that it's basically ASB for an entire culture to ignore it after seeing it.
 
Is there any place exposed to arabic/indian numerals and the zero that didn't adopt it? It seems to be one of those things that's so useful that it's basically ASB for an entire culture to ignore it after seeing it.

I don't think he's suggesting that Europe ignore it - more along the lines of suggesting that there's a delay in Europe adopting that system... a delay of some hundreds of years. The interesting thing is, back then there could actually realistically be fairly major delays in scientific/mathematical progress with fairly minor causes - there just weren't that many educated people around doing things. Have one clever guy get run over by an ox cart and you could set Europe back decades in some field. Not like nowadays, when there're a dozen teams of scientists working on every problem worth working on...

Anyways, I don't think that that sort of situation could be enough to put off the adoption of Arabic numerals for as long as he seems to suggest... but even a lesser delay in the adoption of something that important could have far reaching consequences.
 

Thande

Donor
Zyzzyva will be interested in this one. As the others say I think the adoption of zero is inevitable although it could be delayed and they might use different numerals. Could cause problems for when European Eastern trade kicks off in the 15th and 16th century, though you'd think that contact with the Orient would only encourage the adoption of zero anyway.
 
Zyzzyva will be interested in this one. As the others say I think the adoption of zero is inevitable although it could be delayed and they might use different numerals. Could cause problems for when European Eastern trade kicks off in the 15th and 16th century, though you'd think that contact with the Orient would only encourage the adoption of zero anyway.

Good points all. I agree - I'm looking forward to seeing what Captain Zed has to say about this one.

I do wonder, though - if the concept of zero is adopted before the shift to Arabic numerals, might we see the development of a Roman-numeral-system symbol to signify zero? If that did occur, that'd be interesting. I wonder what it would look like...
 
Did the Chinese have a zero concept before introduction to the west?

(BTW , I didn't think double entry bookkeeping was in general use as far back as the 15C? Most stuff then was the older charge/discharge system)
 

Cook

Banned
Isaac Newton was never going to develop Calculus using Roman Numerals!
Something that millions of school kids would have been heartily glad of.
:p
 
Could you post some links on how to solve quadratic equations using Roman Numerals? I just can't get my mind around how that could be done.
 
Wow, what a lot of reactions.
It's great you like this topic! Let's get deeper into it.




Is there any place exposed to arabic/indian numerals and the zero that didn't adopt it? It seems to be one of those things that's so useful that it's basically ASB for an entire culture to ignore it after seeing it.


That looks like an excellent objection.
But although I am not completely sure about the detailed stream of knowledge, I think the Occident, including Constantinople, before Fibonacci (~1250) might count as an example. What about the Eastern neighbors of India?


Seems like it'd be hard to work out physics problems using Roman numerals. Trigonometry too, come to that...

I'd say trigonometry problems were solved by drawing, North and South of the Mediterranean.
That's independent of any numerals.



Did the Chinese have a zero concept before introduction to the west?

I would be interested to learn that, too.

(BTW , I didn't think double entry bookkeeping was in general use as far back as the 15C? Most stuff then was the older charge/discharge system)

I think Venice and Florence came quite close to it.
Seems like you know a lot about that: What exactly is the charge/discharge system?

Anyway, without knowing the details, I am quite convinced that, say, Pisan and Lübeckian bookkeeping in the 15th century were looking quite differently ...




Q: does zero still get adopted? That alone has monumental ramifications...

As the others say I think the adoption of zero is inevitable although it could be delayed and they might use different numerals.

The most useful function of zero is that of a digit in a digit-based numeral system, isn't it?
Of course, Roman numerals with zeros interspersed at the right decimal position would be practically analogous to the Arabic system (in a circumstancial caligraphic variant, say). That might be the backdoor into an OTL-like situation ...


Could you post some links on how to solve quadratic equations using Roman Numerals? I just can't get my mind around how that could be done.

Solving equations has just nothing to do with the representation of the numbers involved.
To perform it in a concrete case, you have to execute several operations as additions, or check for square numbers; the additions have to go into the abacus then. But the general process of solving it is independent from concrete calculations; except comparison of size! (While negative numbers were not yet used, you had to strike different paths in the solution depending on the relative size of coefficents.)
 
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without Arabic numerals, mathematical and scientific progress in the west would be severely retarded...

You've made the point that quadratic equations etc. can still be solved... I wonder how this'll effect physics, though. Seems like it'd be hard to work out physics problems using Roman numerals. Trigonometry too, come to that... perhaps it's just that I've been reading too many military TLs, but my thought here is how this'd prevent the development of artillery technique at its OTL rate. (Although casting technology and so on would probably continue to advance...)

Unless they "arabisize" Roman numerals somehow you've just butterflied the financial and scientific revolutions! :eek:

Isaac Newton was never going to develop Calculus using Roman Numerals!
Something that millions of school kids would have been heartily glad of.
:p

Neither was Leibniz, I want to add for the sake of completeness. :)

No, for sure a Roman-based number system does not really allow for the imagination of continuous objects, which is the basis for fractional numbers. No problem with actual fractions, or with the subdivision into smaller units as with money and length.
But the idea of a continously varying number (as opposed to a continous geometric object as a line) implies the use of a digit system imho.


That being said, calculus is an extremely useful tool for many purposes. There might be a completely different approach, a different "language" which would allow for the same, or at least partially the same insights and computations in the applications as calculus did for us. I know a couple of different "languages" how to imagine the concept of calculus, but they all use some idea of a continously varying number.


Again, we're talking about the time around 1700, half a millenium from the PoD!
As others have suggested, the Arabic numerals, or a similar system, might have found their way into Europe by then.
Anyway, it's very hard to speculate here ...

And as to the practical implications: Throughout the Middle Ages and Early Modernity, the main applications of mathematics were commerce and land survey, of which the former seems more important.
Computation being harder makes economic planning more complicate; that makes the merchants' success more volatile.
My basic assumption was that that impairs Europe's wealth, but even that's not for sure ...


=========

Hm... this'd seem to be giving the Islamic world a boost, from what I can see.

Rather than butterflying away the financial and scientific revolutions, this simply moves them into the Arab and Indian worlds.

I think we might want to hold our horses here. As said above, it's a long road to go!

The Islamic world already had had 400 years of advance in front of Christianity, knowing about Arabic numbers, remembering the Greek mathematicians, digesting their works. However, it did not lead to much more progress from there for long ...


Mathematical seems to be largely arbitrary in terms of historical circumstances.
It is may be fostered by some social appreciation of rationality.
Of course, a decent population base may increase the probability of a talented mind;
a certain level of wealth might provide this genius the leisure to ponder about square roots rather than gutting fish,
and wealth and peace and lively traffic may allow him to meet inspiring teachers.
But these are only marginal conditions. I can see no systematic reason (apart from the arguments mentioned) why the algebraic insights until Gauss could not have become known 400 years earlier ...


But calculus is different. In my eyes, its development is deeply dependent on the philosophy of Enlightenment.
Enlightenment, for that matter, did take place in a Christian enviroment, and delocating it to the Islamic world would introduce a whole new set of indeterminates ...


The interesting thing is, back then there could actually realistically be fairly major delays in scientific/mathematical progress with fairly minor causes - there just weren't that many educated people around doing things. Have one clever guy get run over by an ox cart and you could set Europe back decades in some field. Not like nowadays, when there're a dozen teams of scientists working on every problem worth working on...

That's completely true.
Needless to say, it applies to the Islamic world as well.



Keep going!
 
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B von A, interesting points there. I wasn't aware of how pre-Arabic numeral trigonometry was done, so that news actually comes as a surprise to me. I was thinking of my own experience with trigonometry, which made it seem like it'd be quite hard to do without Arabic numerals or some analogue.

Considering how critical trig was to the use of early gun powder artillery, even fairly minor set-backs with trig's development might have some interesting effects.

As for the question of how this would affect the Islamic world... well, sure the Islamic world might not make much of the opportunity offered by this additional delay of western development, but at the very least they'd be no worse off than OTLy. I think I can see your point, though.

Well, anyways, it's all very interesting, I look forward to seeing where this discussion goes.
 
I have no precise idea on the impact of this pod. But it's definitely one the most originals in a long time, and a good change from political and military pods.
 
Umm...there were developments in calculus made independently in India in the 16th C

Huh... that's interesting. I guess it's one more example of how if something's delayed in one region, it'll show up in another.

Another example of how this PoD would set up Europe for a lesser advantage over the rest of the world. Not just the Islamic world, India as well... it's interesting, to imagine what all of these factors would add up to. Nothing good for Europe most likely...

Hm, as I've said before, an interesting PoD.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
LOL, I thought this was going to be what if women had tails, or were furry or something...

Whatever did happen to TMOT ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Fascinating! Great link!

India in general tended to be pretty advanced in Mathematics. Not that I mean to denigrate B von A- I think this is an interesting and fresh POD but I just took exception to the idea that mathematical developments of this sort were a product of the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment was a very specific reaction to the European context.
 
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