Different end to the warring states period?

This was the period when iron and cavalry appeared and replaced bronze and charioteers in warfare and it was the time of a Hundred Schools of Thought.

A PoD during the warring states period would have vast effects on chinese culture and the sinization/colonization south of the Yangtze had barely begun...

What would have happened if the Qin failed to unite China?

Is it possible that another kingdom would have or would China remain divided?

Someone was going to unify China eventually, but the shape of the Chinese dynasties are going to look a lot different if the Qin doesn't do it.

IIRC south of the Yangtze wasn't colonized until after the 2nd century AD

Typo said:

Someone was going to unify China eventually,

Click to expand...

Why?
Why is it not multiple states just as Europe was?
Why is China seen as inevitably one massive nation?

Cook said:

Why?
Why is it not multiple states just as Europe was?
Why is China seen as inevitably one massive nation?

Click to expand...

Geography. China proper is centered along two flat, wide river valleys. The relative ease of communication and movement (as compared to Europe and the Indian Subcontinent) is such that there's a predisposition to larger states.

That looks more aggressive than intended.

But why is it that China is seen as inevitably a single nation and not naturally as a patchwork like Europe?

Because , historically , it has been so excepting a few periods of division. Secondly , from the Han Dynasty onwards , during periods of divisions , the states in China proper ultimate aim has always been full control of China proper . Finally , China has very defensible borders , if you to stop to think about it for a moment . To the East is the sea , to the North is the steepes , to the south are Jungles , and to the West is the Himalayas and the Takla Makan Desert , the Tian Shan Mountains , the Pamirs , etc ...

Inevitably , given the geographic shape of China , some state is eventually going to win out . Remember , by the end of the warring states period , Northern China was divided into only three or four states , and the South was home to two organized states IIRC ( Nanzhao in Sichuan/Yunnan and the Yue in Modern day Guangzhou/Fujian / Guizhou ). So , yes . China was well on it's way to getting united by one state towards the end of the warring states period , even , if , for whatever reason , the Qin collapsed , or got conquered during the Warring States period .

Compare the Geographic shape of Europe to that of China . China basically consist of one huge costal plain from Vietnam to the Manchuria , dominated by two ( or three , depending on how you see it ) huge and easily navigable rivers .

Cook said:

That looks more aggressive than intended.

But why is it that China is seen as inevitably a single nation and not naturally as a patchwork like Europe?

Click to expand...

As already explained, the geography of China proper favours one political entity, the only real geographical barrier to unification has historically been the Yangtze river. Now compare this to Europe and the near east, where you get natural frontiers like the Alps, Pyrenees, the Rhine, the Channel, the Taurus etc etc

I'd think that the state that would conquer all of China in Qin's place would almost certainly be Chu. IIRC it was the largest, and it was certainly the toughest fight for the Qin. But as for what a China dominated by the Chu would look like, I do not know.

Hresvelgr said:

I'd think that the state that would conquer all of China in Qin's place would almost certainly be Chu. IIRC it was the largest, and it was certainly the toughest fight for the Qin. But as for what a China dominated by the Chu would look like, I do not know.

Click to expand...

That's what I thought so too, but civilizations do have a tendency to be unified by foreigners or fringe powers, i.e Chin for China, Prussia for Germany, Macedon for Greece, Rome for the Hellenistic World. China might very well be unified instead by semi-sinized Barbarians (not too unlike the Chin themselves actually).

Since this was before the Han dynasty, China was not yet as culturally and linguisticlly united as it was after Han.

After the Chinese Empire had been completely united for hundreds of years it was impossible to completely disunite it.

Due to geography China would perhaps still be considered one unit by westerners, like India, while not actually being one?

If not united by the Qin it would of course be united eventually, but would it stay united?

I could imagine alot of nations at as different as Morocco to Spain surviving throughout China. United in the past, a few loanwords etc.

Well, the geography favours unity, which makes it easier for reunification efforts as well. But there was the period of Chinese history between the Qin/Han and Sui/Tang in which China was almost continuously in a state of disunity.

Hresvelgr said:

I'd think that the state that would conquer all of China in Qin's place would almost certainly be Chu. IIRC it was the largest, and it was certainly the toughest fight for the Qin. But as for what a China dominated by the Chu would look like, I do not know.

Click to expand...

If Chu had managed to unite China, these would be the possible consequences:


1. Since the capital and the political power are far down south, the need of a wall defense against the Northern barbarians is greatly reduced; So there would be probably no Great Wall, instead we might get a early Great Canal facilitating the north-to-south transportation. In general, the spotlight of Chinese civilization would shift south; Chu would probably encourage the mass to migrate and populate the vast land of the south, leading to an earlier development of the Yue areas including Fujian, Hunan, Guangnan, and Nanyue(Vietnam).

2. Daoism would be favored over Confucianism; Laozi was from Chu, and his theory was popular among Chu scholars. That's what would be a profound effect on the development of Chinese civilization.

3. The language development would change course drastically. Chu language is noticeably different from all other contemporary languages spoken in the northern states, with much characteristic of tribes south of the China proper, and many unique words. Following the Chu's ascendance, this language would become official and would have a much greater effect on the northern dialects than in OTL.

4. Ceremonial rituals would be more prevalent in Chinese lands. In Chu, Shaman women (or Miko, with Chinese style) had led vibrant rituals to please the gods, with dancing and singing, much like the cultures of the various ethnicities in SW China. Chu would certainly promote their unique bit of culture to the north.


That's what I can think of for now, and please do point out any mistakes I've made

Tsana said:

If Chu had managed to unite China, these would be the possible consequences:


1. Since the capital and the political power are far down south, the need of a wall defense against the Northern barbarians is greatly reduced; So there would be probably no Great Wall, instead we might get a early Great Canal facilitating the north-to-south transportation. In general, the spotlight of Chinese civilization would shift south; Chu would probably encourage the mass to migrate and populate the vast land of the south, leading to an earlier development of the Yue areas including Fujian, Hunan, Guangnan, and Nanyue(Vietnam).

2. Daoism would be favored over Confucianism; Laozi was from Chu, and his theory was popular among Chu scholars. That's what would be a profound effect on the development of Chinese civilization.

3. The language development would change course drastically. Chu language is noticeably different from all other contemporary languages spoken in the northern states, with much characteristic of tribes south of the China proper, and many unique words. Following the Chu's ascendance, this language would become official and would have a much greater effect on the northern dialects than in OTL.

4. Ceremonial rituals would be more prevalent in Chinese lands. In Chu, Shaman women (or Miko, with Chinese style) had led vibrant rituals to please the gods, with dancing and singing, much like the cultures of the various ethnicities in SW China. Chu would certainly promote their unique bit of culture to the north.


That's what I can think of for now, and please do point out any mistakes I've made

Click to expand...

Very good, my thoughts exactly. The point over Confucianism is massively important, as it virtually stopped intellectual advance in China. What it would be replaced with, I've not idea, however without it China would be very different. Perhaps more advances in chemistry as Daoist alchemists search for elixirs? Could be a possibility, that's how they discovered gunpowder.

As for migration, the south would definitely become far more sinicised. I think that even Formosa and Hainan may be settled, as well as west into Sichuan as the northern plains have little interest for the southern emperors. I think Vietnam is a little far out, given that the Pearl River would be a natural border, but whatever.

Would that means the steppe peoples begin to migrate further south? If the attention of the rulers is on the south and people are leaving the north for the south, it stands to reason that the steppe nomads would move farther south to somewhat more hospitable climate. That might be interesting especially in regards to Korea's relations to China.

Saepe Fidelis said:

Very good, my thoughts exactly. The point over Confucianism is massively important, as it virtually stopped intellectual advance in China. What it would be replaced with, I've not idea, however without it China would be very different. Perhaps more advances in chemistry as Daoist alchemists search for elixirs? Could be a possibility, that's how they discovered gunpowder.

Click to expand...

Well, Philosophical Daoism is a very different thing from Religious Daoism. If my premise of Chu adopting Daoist philosophy, which was indeed strongly supported by the government and the people, had been true, then whether religious Daoism and its alchemist branch would still develop or not, is in doubt, given this is some heavy modifying of an official philosophy.

One problem traditional Confucian philosophy carries, is its contempt on systematic categorization of scientific subjects, and negligence on theories and logical proofs. This makes it difficult to develop or propagate new technologies. In this part, Daoism seems to do a better job handling logic matters, albeit mostly philosophical, but may still help technological development.

Regarding intellectual advance, I rather think this was due to Dong Zhongshu's "Dismiss the hundred schools, revere only the Confucians" during the Han dynasty. This essentially hampered the exchange of free thoughts during previous eras, though indeed helped cementing a more homogeneous country.

Saepe Fidelis said:

As for migration, the south would definitely become far more sinicised. I think that even Formosa and Hainan may be settled, as well as west into Sichuan as the northern plains have little interest for the southern emperors. I think Vietnam is a little far out, given that the Pearl River would be a natural border, but whatever.

Click to expand...

If you search Nanyue on Google, you may find something interesting. Northern Vietnam had been part of China for some decent centuries, as early as Qin. Actually, the word Yue and Viet are cognate, and can be easily recognized by local people; It was just later different political establishment forced people to differentiate the two words.

Consider even Qin, a relatively northern state, had pushed as south as Middle Vietnam, a southerner regime with more "Baiyue characteristic" would definitely go deeper south.

EDIT: The area left uncolonized till much later is the Shanyue area, which is about the Fujian province today. The terrain was so rugged and the natives were so militant, even the unified dynasties could only deal with the more southern (flatter) land first before turning their eyes to there.

MNPundit said:

Would that means the steppe peoples begin to migrate further south? If the attention of the rulers is on the south and people are leaving the north for the south, it stands to reason that the steppe nomads would move farther south to somewhat more hospitable climate. That might be interesting especially in regards to Korea's relations to China.

Click to expand...

I think so. Besides, some people in the northern state of Yan may want to go Korean. IOTL, Wiman of Yan seized control of the Joseon state and established Wiman Joseon during early Han dynasty; I am not sure if shifted balance to the south would promote or discourage this trend, since there would be increased nomadic presence, which may or may not disturb or integrate into the still relatively primitive Joseon area.

Tsana said:

I think so. Besides, some people in the northern state of Yan may want to go Korean. IOTL, Wiman of Yan seized control of the Joseon state and established Wiman Joseon during early Han dynasty; I am not sure if shifted balance to the south would promote or discourage this trend, since there would be increased nomadic presence, which may or may not disturb or integrate into the still relatively primitive Joseon area.

Click to expand...

Can you see a scenerio in which some of those northern nomads manage to unify the entirety of China?

Tsana said:

If you search Nanyue on Google, you may find something interesting. Northern Vietnam had been part of China for some decent centuries, as early as Qin. Actually, the word Yue and Viet are cognate, and can be easily recognized by local people; It was just later different political establishment forced people to differentiate the two words.

Consider even Qin, a relatively northern state, had pushed as south as Middle Vietnam, a southerner regime with more "Baiyue characteristic" would definitely go deeper south.

Click to expand...

Interestingly, the Chinese word for Vietnam, when spelled out in pinyin, is "Yue Nan"...

Typo said:

Can you see a scenerio in which some of those northern nomads manage to unify the entirety of China?

Click to expand...

It really depends. The nomads IOTL were mostly brought into the umbrella of the Xiongnu Confederation as early as 3rd BCE. Xiongnu continued to involve, diplomatically or militarily, with the China proper in the next 700-800 years until they were either absorbed or banished onto the Central Asian steppes, with some claiming that these are the progenitors of the Huns.

With a stronger incentive to move southward, these nomads may conquer and settled down in the vast flats in northern China and become farmers over several generations. Much like what happened later IOTL after Jin Dynasty. Still, the two great rivers serves as natural barriers which can impede nomadic advance. However if they settled down and form agricultural society and states, it would be a different story.

People have said, that China has a predispostition to being united due to its lack of dividing geographical features. So why does India not have the same history of nearly continuos empires uniting the area? Sure India had the Munghals, the Gutptas the British and others who united it but we still have many different cultures, languages, religions and ethnicites and even in the British Raj there were many small princley states.
So why cant China follow the Indian example of being united for a few years then falling into many different states every 100 years or so???