Why do we like Central Powers victories?

One of the more popular types of AH out there (well, not as popular as those involving Nazis or Jeff Davis) is that of the Central Powers victory in WWI. While there are numerous variations, the most common pattern is that Germany uses the Schlieffen Plan correctly, captures Paris, turns around, knocks Russia out, and achieves continental hegemony.

Oddly enough, this basic scenario seems to have gained a bit of a following. Certainly, it's something of an old favorite with neocon Brit economic historian Niall Ferguson. The thing I find odd is that the "Germany wins WWI" scenarios tend to be utopic ones. Personally, I always felt that a German victory (if it is even possible) would have just created a world that's "the same, but different".

So, why is the Central Powers victory popular, and why do we think it would make the world a better place?

1. Most people would say a certain Herr Schicklhuber won´t come to power, which sounds great

2. Austria-Hungary survives: Fashionable uniforms, great parades

3. the french lose

I think we like Central Powers victories because in most timelines that leads to a more muted version of a 2nd World War, if there is even a war at all. Spared from a 2nd World War humanity remains a bit more naive about it's own barbarity. That tends to lead to a more utopian, albiet naive world.

plus, AH usually survives and who doesn't like a good strong Austro-Hungarian survival timeline?

I think it is because everybody knows what happen when the Allied Powers won. The punishing Treaty of Versailles, the war guilt, the rise of Hitler and the Holocaust, the Second World War and the ensuing Cold War are all interrelated. There is a reason that Adolf Hitler was nearly chosen as Time Magazine's Man of the Century, as being the most influential individual of the 20th century. Albert Einstein was selected instead, which in the grand scheme of things is a distant second.

I do admit that how most Alternative Historians think a Central Powers victory would be any better is beyond me. Aside from saving the Austro-Hungarian Empire, how rampant victory infused Prussian militarism is going to be countered in a Pax Germania is a good question.

Pacification is achievable if Germany has a ptomic victory. Many think that it would indeed have been the war to end all wars if Hitler had no base to rise to power.

I don't think so. In Europe, maybe, but not elsewhere: not with Japan AT LEAST as well off as it was before the war (a victorious Germany can do little to Japan, even as far as getting its Pacific colonies back) and a rising U.S. eyeing each other over the Pacific. There, at least, war may be inevitable...and there is also the possibility of U.S. on German conflict, though that's less inevitable.

I like it because of all the reasons above and the fact that neither side was truly evil, as was Germany during WWII. You can think about an alternative aftermath without having to accept something truly reprehensible on the part of a victorious Germany.

Well, Wilhelmine Germany wasn't evil in the sense that the Nazis were...but it isn't exactly the sort of power I'd like to have ruling over the world, either.

Thande said:

I don't think so. In Europe, maybe, but not elsewhere: not with Japan AT LEAST as well off as it was before the war (a victorious Germany can do little to Japan, even as far as getting its Pacific colonies back) and a rising U.S. eyeing each other over the Pacific. There, at least, war may be inevitable...and there is also the possibility of U.S. on German conflict, though that's less inevitable.

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After the United States defeats Japan (as is likely to happen) a Cold War ensues between German controlled Europe and the United States We end up with a Cold War anyways, I wonder how a German allied Europe would develop as opposed to the Soviet dominated Eastern Europe?

The UK either declares neutrality, or likely allies with the US (Id say the UK would prefer the distant US over the close Germans, even though it seems backwards)

WW1 is a clear turning point for the 20th century.
The most obvious change is a Central powers Victory.

That said... I find alot of them to be somewhat.. unrealistic in how history would play out afterward.

Thande said:

Well, Wilhelmine Germany wasn't evil in the sense that the Nazis were...but it isn't exactly the sort of power I'd like to have ruling over the world, either.

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Not really much chance of that was there?

Because the Habsburgs of Austria-Hungary survive, and plus monarchies would be more prevalent.. For example, we'd have a Kingdom of Finland, a Baltic Duchy, a German Empire, an Austro-Hungarian Empire*...

*- Actually, I'd think that eventually it'd break up into an Austrian Empire and a Hungarian Kingdom, though perhaps the Austrians will break the Hungarians, and reform a multi-ethnic without speciel privileges (except for German-Austrians) austrian empire, once they revolt again.

End of the Age.

World War I marks the end of an age, and the begining of a New More Modern nationalistic, and less European centered world.

The seeds of some many of our worlds problems, come from the First World War, the Middle East, Communism, WW2, growth of the modern State, modern Warfare, and the loss of faith in Science.

We all know what happen with the victory over Germany and Austro-Hungary Empire, and the growth of American and the Soviet Union.

That is why this Scenario is popular.

We like this topic because in OTL the Wilsonian principles at the Versailles peace talks led to a utopian global society and the final amalgamation of the world under the League of Nations by 1954.

Being Neanderthal throwbacks we find history since then to be utterly dull and naturally look for alternatives.

Steffen said:

1. Most people would say a certain Herr Schicklhuber won´t come to power, which sounds great

2. Austria-Hungary survives: Fashionable uniforms, great parades

3. the french lose

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You left out the most important benefit of the CP winning - I assume this is because it's too obvious to mention.

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:

You left out the most important benefit of the CP winning - I assume this is because it's too obvious to mention.

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*cough*Ottoman*cough*Empire*cough*survives*cough*

Oh excuse me

The CP would have to win fairly early (before the Bruslilov Offensive) to save Austria-Hungary.

Anyway, I think the reasons for the popularity of CP win scenarios is a combination of all those mentioned above.

The sides were better balanced, there was no evil side, it set the 20th c on its disastrous trajectory, there was at least the potential for a huge and decisive naval battle, etc.

While I'm not sure I get the utopianism (after all, a bitter and fascist France wouldn't be much fun either), it's hard to imagine the 20th c going WORSE than historical (at least I HOPE it's hard for any of you to imagine).

Also, there would be more Zeppelins.

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:

it's hard to imagine the 20th c going WORSE than historical (at least I HOPE it's hard for any of you to imagine).

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If that "any of us" means AH.comers, and since that group includes S.M. Stirling...no.

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:

You left out the most important benefit of the CP winning - I assume this is because it's too obvious to mention.

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Oh sorry I just mentioned the positive effects

No really, I´ve just forgotten about the empire- which- is- located- where-the-byzantine-empire- should be.

From my perspective (ideally if this victory occurs prior to 1916 with a negotiated settlement):

(1) Germany remains a vaguely constitutional - if autocratic - monarchy with no reason to become a revisionist/fascist/racist totalitarian state.
(2) Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires probably survive, limiting the continual balkanization of the Balkans and east-central Europe and retaining a single moderate islamic rule over much of the middle east.
(3) Russian Empire either survives (although possibly reduced in the west) or a non-bolshevik revolution succeeds creating a more moderate and conservative republican govt or constitutional monarchy.
(4) USA remains isolationist
(5) Hypocritical Wilsonian notion of "national self-determination" does not acheive widespread acceptability. Big empires and colonial rule are not discredited, an international order based on arrangements between fewer than 25-30 independent countries (many of whom are essentially puppets of less than 10 major powers) creates a much more stable and peaceful world order.
(6) Britain remains a great power with a great empire (I don't see Germany ever in a position to dictate peace to Britain)
(7) France is no doubt trampled on and humiliated but I find it hard to believe a revisionist France would ever be as dangerous or a deadly as the Nazis)

Many elements of cultural modernism,including extreme notions of popular sovereignity - imass social/political/totalitarian movements - are reduced in influence (as a true - not Bushian or libertarian - conservative, I see democracy and totalitarianism as potentially two sides of the same dangerous coin).

And, as AHP said, more zeppelins.

And yes, barring Drakonian Draka Developments, it is hard to imagine a 20th century much worse than the one we had - and impossible to imagine one in a world with no Nazis or Stalins