Best case scenario for the U-boat campaign

[BlackWave]

What conditions are needed for the Kriegsmarine's U-boat campaign to achieve the biggest impact? Wank the Nazis or antiwank the Allies as necessary.

[HMS Warspite]

Originally Posted by BlackWave

What conditions are needed for the Kriegsmarine's U-boat campaign to achieve the biggest impact? Wank the Nazis or antiwank the Allies as necessary.

Overall, the U-Boote did quite well, given the circumstances in the OTL WW2. The only real difference would be to avoid sending U-Boote away from the Atlantic battleground to the Mediteranean Sea and Arctic (against the Murmansk Convoy's), as this limmited the numbers too severaly, on a service, already a bit short in operational boats at any time.

The best tactic was to send as many oiperational boats as possible in wolfpacks against the major convoy's and their routes, helped by airsearches of long range patroll aircraft and scouting vessels, such as other U-Boote, already on their return to port, to reload, or whatever other means.

Also have a small, but potentially potent large warships as a Fleet in Being, to force the Allies to send a larger force of ships to a blockade force, meaning these would draw away forces from the ASW in the Atlantic.

[Astrodragon]

The simplest way to improve the effect of the U-boats would be for Raeder to realise (the evidence was there, after all) that the British were reading his mail, and change Enigma and improve its operational securtity.

Tie that in with better concentration in the Atlantic, and the RN have a lot more problems. It wont help in the long run but it would sink more ships in the late 41-early 43 period. After that, LRPA, escort carriers and centimetric radar dooms the U-boat offensive.

[Atreus]

Best thing that I can think of is that ULTRA never breaks the German codes, or the Germans realize that this is happening. I don't think that this is a war-winning development in its own right, but makes the U-boats that much more effective, and has a ton of knock-off effects in other theatres.

[paulo]

Originally Posted by Atreus

Best thing that I can think of is that ULTRA never breaks the German codes, or the Germans realize that this is happening. I don't think that this is a war-winning development in its own right, but makes the U-boats that much more effective, and has a ton of knock-off effects in other theatres.

Also, fix the torpedo problems before the war starts. This give you some extra kills in the first months of the war.

For the Wank side, start develop and put in production the type XXI much sooner.

[Mark AH]

An earlier switch to place the submarine in front of the weapons at see, in OTL there was too long too much effort in the surface fleet, even after it seems lost to use large battleships;

More bases with a direct link to the Atlantic, maybe was after the fall of France a base in French Morocco a possibility.

[BigWillyG]

Would there be any effect if the Western Allies had an air force like the Germans or Russians without 4 engine heavy bombers? Prior to the the coming of escort carriers VLF Liberators were the only way to get air cover over the Atlantic gap.

On the German side having a good 4 engine bomber to use would have been good. The Condors did a lot of damage but they were converted airliners with structural and payload issues. Having a real bomber in the scout role could help out a lot.

[Eternity]

I have got Memoirs: Ten Years and Twenty Days by Grand Admiral and Reichsprasident Karl Donitz. It is a great read and if you don't have it, get it.

In it, he says that at the outbreak of WW2 he had something like 40 subs. At the HEIGHT of the U-Boat strength during WW2 he had around 100 subs. With those 100 he brought England to her knees. He was pushing Hitler for 300 subs before the outbreak of war in 1939. Lucky for us Hitler prefered big ships at that time.

Donitz wanted 300 subs for:
100 on patrol
100 going to or returning from patrol
100 in base restocking or training etc

If he had those 300 boats, there is your German victory. They came close with 100 submarines. With 300 in 1939..... England would not have had a chance. American shipbuilding capacity saved us in 1941. Without it in 1939 and with the losses Donitz could have inflicted on England.....

[BlairWitch749]

Eliminating the Ultra intelligence leaks would be a major help to the Uboats
otherwise several things that would aid a u-boat victory

1. eliminating torpedo problems before the war (several critical british ships could have been sunk and several precious uboats could have been saved)

2. seriously training the commanders to be able to sink the escort ships including the carriers (many of the escort ships and light carriers where manned by undertrained reserved and determined U-boat commanders could really have given them a run for their money) if you sink the escorts the rest of the convoy is dead meat

3. define set piece objectives... Donitz wasted boats on non essential missions (the forays into the caribean come to mind)

4. don't let hitler micromanage the schnorkel and acoustic torpedo projects (interdepartment fighting and confusing directives delayed those projects for YEARS)

[superkuf]

Originally Posted by BlackWave

What conditions are needed for the Kriegsmarine's U-boat campaign to achieve the biggest impact? Wank the Nazis or antiwank the Allies as necessary.

1) No surface navy - all resources to submarines
2) Don't invade Norway - the British merchant marine is far smaller since the Norwegian ships stay norwegian instead of joining the british.
3) Early adaption of the schnorkel
4) Better communications strategy - Enigma or not, a sending sub can always be tracked by huff-duff. Let all subs run radio silence if they had nothing to report, and better encryption for the reports.
5) Don't stay with model VII (or the enlarged IX) all the war, get new models early (instead of waiting to 1944). A "XXI light" by 1940 should be possible (no deck gun, more batteries, drop formed hull etc) without too much wank.

Would it be enough to defeat Britain, or only force the British to become far better at ASW? Difficult to tell, but possible.

[ranoncles]

Originally Posted by superkuf

1) No surface navy - all resources to submarines
2) Don't invade Norway - the British merchant marine is far smaller since the Norwegian ships stay norwegian instead of joining the british.
3) Early adaption of the schnorkel
4) Better communications strategy - Enigma or not, a sending sub can always be tracked by huff-duff. Let all subs run radio silence if they had nothing to report, and better encryption for the reports.
5) Don't stay with model VII (or the enlarged IX) all the war, get new models early (instead of waiting to 1944). A "XXI light" by 1940 should be possible (no deck gun, more batteries, drop formed hull etc) without too much wank.

Would it be enough to defeat Britain, or only force the British to become far better at ASW? Difficult to tell, but possible.

Ummm, if the Germans don't go to Norway, the allies will....They were planning a blatant invasion of Norway and Sweden to cut off ore shipments to Germany and were just beaten to the punch by the Germans.

Without the ore, there wouldn't be any U-boats......


As an aside, if the allies invaded Norway first, with the Germans portrayed as the allies of the brave Norwegians (as the British and French were OTL) would the Norwegian merchant fleet join the Axis?

[The Sandman]

Norway could be altered by some German with a head for propaganda and a realistic assessment of the situation realizing that Norway can be turned into a disaster for the British, if the British are allowed to attack first.

Let's say that the Germans get their one intelligence coup of the war here; that they get a hold of the British plans and thus know that the Brits are going to violate the neutrality of both Norway and Sweden.

Germany lets this happen, and then offers the Swedes and Norwegians help in exchange for military access. Not exactly having a lot of choice here, they both say yes.

The Germans can easily send stuff across the Baltic. If they still take down Denmark as per OTL, they can ship across from Sjaelland. And if the British want to interrupt this (which they have to if they don't want the Germans to crush the invasion effort) they're going to have to fight their way into the Baltic and then back out again. If they actually try for it, a significant portion of the Royal Navy gets torn to shreds as the Germans use the confined waters and proximity of land-based aircraft to their advantage.

It's the perfect trap.

Of course, this also means that the KM surface fleet remains intact, and thus can try to interfere with the inevitable evacuation efforts as France collapses. This will bleed the British even more, particularly of the lighter fleet elements that would have otherwise been used against the U-boats.

[Cook]

Starting the war with 100 U-boats would have been a good idea.

[Jukra]

Originally Posted by superkuf

1) No surface navy - all resources to submarines

And how will the British react to this? IMHO, if the POD is past, say, Munich Crisis, the decision should be to limit the size of the U-boat arm. In OTL, due to decision to radically expand the U-boat arm which really came into fruition after 1942 when the existing type of U-boat was obsolete, many useable U-boats and even more importantly, their crews, were wasted on training missions which failed to produce hiqh-quality crews anyhow. Germany must win or otherwise present her best effort prior to 1942.

Without the rush to expand the quality of U-boat crews and quantity of U-boats available will be much higher than OTL. Secondary effect is more powerful surface forces of KM, which will mean even more dissemination of Allied light craft than OTL.

Originally Posted by superkuf

5) Don't stay with model VII (or the enlarged IX) all the war, get new models early (instead of waiting to 1944). A "XXI light" by 1940 should be possible (no deck gun, more batteries, drop formed hull etc) without too much wank.

Definitely, the dogmatic mass surface attack at night was being questioned in 1938 after KM radar trials but fortunately Mr Donut decided not to act. After all, the Japanese, with less effective electric installations but albeit superior hydrodynamic knowledge, produced high-speed test unit already in 1938.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_No.71

[Mark AH]

Originally Posted by ranoncles

Ummm, if the Germans don't go to Norway, the allies will....They were planning a blatant invasion of Norway and Sweden to cut off ore shipments to Germany and were just beaten to the punch by the Germans.
?

Operation Ikarus could have been the solution for the u-boat operations, even after de British entered Iceland with operation Fork. Only Norway must be invaded like OTL.

[HMS Warspite]

Warfare is a bit too complicated for single solutions only. A mixture of several combinations is propably more likely to succeed.

The most principle difference should be in the human factor, namely the political leadership, ruling over the military in Germany's case. By removing this limmit, the military, especially the Navy, would be far more effective.

So political choices, such as the sending of U-Boote to the Mediteranean Sea and the Arctic to fight for secondary objectives (Italy and the War against the USSR), rather than breaking the British (and therefore the Americans too, by denying them acces to Europe and the future West Front).
With the available equipment of the period's OTL, perhaps helped a bit by new additions following a slightly altered construction policy, the Germans could very well have caused serious problems for teh British, to remain in the War. Only If the Cordon around the UK was effectively closing the lines of supply to the UK, the UK would be starved to death, being denied crucial goods and fuels.

To achieve this, the pressence of a small, but potentially powerfull surfacefleet was essential, or the British would simply put akll their resources on ASW, rather than being forced to split the few available resources between the ASW and tradtional surfacefleets. So the 4 German battleships were essential, although even with two, the result would be the same, more or less (if these were the biggest ones naturally and if not risked out at sea, but retained as a Fleet in Being). The Cruisers and other smaller warships were less important for this role, although a few should be enlisted as well, to make a potentially ballanced powerfull surfaceaction group. Perhaps juning the old Predreadnoughts was an option, as was the partial deletion of the six light cruisers and cancelation of the new Hipper Class heavy Cruiser. The Destroyer Program should not have been focused on the large Zerstörer, but the smaller Type 39 destroyer, which was both less expensive and more capable, being more multipurpose. Retain the Heavy cruisers of the Deutschland class for mainly political purposes, and as part of teh Fleet in Being.

Most important for a mainly coastal Navy, the Kriegsmarine was to be, would be the large numbers of small forces and non combatants for patroll and minewarfare/sweeping/ASW/AA. Germany needed coastal shiping from especially Scandinavian ports to Germany for resources. These had to be protected.

After War started, cancel all large and complex ships being built, except the ones already more or less completed. Focus on building very large numbers of especially the easy to construct Type VII and Type IX, but also speed up research in newer models, such as the Type XXI and so on. Also speed up the building of trainigncapacity fir the Submarine Division of the Fleet. Also increase production on easy to construct small surface units, especially minesweepers and ASW escorts.

Finally a political issue was to be made: The creation of a Naval Airservice, simmilar to the FAA, or simmilar services, as the Navy, especially the U-Boote, needed an airforce of their own, to simplify communicationlinks and to deploy on its own, rather than waiting untill Göring was in the mood to send some planes.