Jomsvikings, Norwegians, and Vinland! A TL

[Monopolist]

What will follow will likely become a Jomsviking/Norwegian Wank, though I’ll try my best to be realistic. (Though I'd have to assume that a BA Mercenary Warrior Order Wank is bound to be successful ) This is my take on the Vinland cliché, though this first post may not sound like that at all.

This is my first real TL. (See this for my first failed attempt at one that I knew needed help, due to my inability to research for a long enough time, and other doomed ideas ) Please only constructive criticism, as I am far from an expert, and also far from a good writer. What I will say may only make sense to me, and if so, I'm sorry. I hope I can clarify your questions. However, I will listen to your ideas. I will keep this timeline going for as long as interest remains in it. Also, please point out any ASB's that I might not have caught.


POD: Modern Day Pomerania (Wendland), 1000 A.D., King Olaf’s camp before departure


Early in the morning, Einar Tambarskjelve was taking target practice upon his good friend the King of Norway’s advice, as Olaf was worried of the coming war between him and his enemies Sweyn Forkbeard, Olaf the Swede, and Erik Hakonarson. A good shot, out of 50 shots, he got 10 bulls eyes. On the fifty-first shot, however, his bow broke, and Erik was dismayed. Wishing to continue his target practice, he approached the nearest tent, hoping to ask for their bow. The closest tent was the mercenary captain Jarl Sigvaldi’s tent, and he appeared to be having an intense conversation, sounding as if it should be quiet but gotten out of hand. As a curious man, and the only one nearby, Einar eavesdropped before entering.


Sigvaldi raises his voice; “OK Thorkell, again this is the plan that Sweyn laid out for me. We are to lead Olaf and his men to Swold and upon arrival, attack Olaf and kill all of his men. They are ambushed nearby, and will aid us in the attack. We will easily win; Olaf has only 10 other Norwegian boats than his own; we will have over 150! Our men have been told of the plan. Do you now completely understand the plan! It’s not any different then what I told the men earlier! Stop being such a damned idiot!”


Thorkell responds, “Yes, now I understand completely. Thank you for clarifying again Sigvaldi. On a side note, brother, you need not to be so angry with me; I couldn’t hear you very well at the meeting. You need to learn to speak up!” Arguing and shouting continued between the two brothers.


Einar was horrified by this. There was a plot to kill the king, led by these backstabbing traitors!!! And he would likely die too! Einar knew what he had to do; and it wouldn’t be pretty. He had to kill these men, and do it fast. At the moment, they were unarmed. Einar slowly walked into the tent, and snuck up on them. The brothers were still in the midst of their argument, and no one should be up, thus blissfully unaware the silent man walking inside to kill them. Einar drew his sword that he always carries with him, and cut off Sigvaldi’s head. Thorkell didn’t even have time to scream before Einar killed him too.


Einar was worried. How would he explain to Olaf why he killed the Jomviking leader! And how would the Jomsvikings react! Einar realized what he had done could’ve been a mistake. But, he had pride, and sheathed his sword, and walked over to Olaf’s tent. There, he relayed the events that had just taken place. Olaf sat, thinking hard. Finally, he spoke.


“Einar, I think, with God’s help, we can still salvage the situation. Please, tell everyone that there will be a mandatory meeting with everyone in one hour. I wish to speak about this before it gets out. I will place guards in front of the late Jarl’s and his brother’s tent. Please hurry.”

Einar hurriedly spread by word of mouth the speech that Olaf had planned for the army. Soon, everyone crowded around a hill, awaiting Olaf’s speech. Fortunately for the Norwegian king, word had not gotten out about the Jarl’s death yet, though speculation as to why he was not there was beginning to surface. Finally, Olaf began his speech.


“Jomsvikings, your leader is dead. He has been killed because he was discovered to be plotting against us, even though we have paid you well. You may hate me for this, and may rise against me. I don’t care. I will fight all of you who support the conspiracy to kill me. My death will lead to your destruction, as I also have a strong alliance with the Polish duke, Boleslaw. My men are prepared to die, for we know that we will be resurrected in death and walk alongside our lord Jesus Christ in heaven.”


Unexpectedly, the Jomsvikings were silently thinking of his words. Finally, Vagn Åkesson, a respected Jomsviking leader, spoke up.


“You all know me, and my relationship with that treacherous swine Sigvaldi Strut-Haraldson. I hated that man, for he was a coward amongst cowards, and utterly pathetic. I beat the man in a dual when I was 12! And his plan to kill you Olaf was not supported by me, though it is hard to organize any kind of disapproval, as you may not speak ill of others in our society.


He was a man of the Ancient religion, one who believes in Thor and Valhalla, as our people have believed for centuries. This man, King Olaf, is of a different religion, yet he shows no fear at all, even in the face of obvious annihilation. I respect him. I will join any religion that a man who shows such courage supports, and depart from any religion that such a coward is a part of. I will join Olaf, and kill his enemies.” He then walked over to Olaf’s side. Vagn attracted several followers to join him with Olaf, but not very many in the large group of Jomsvikings. Another stood up to speak.


“Vagn can do what he wishes, but I believe I speak for the majority of us. Though I too hated that coward of a man Sigvaldi, and disapproved of this plan, I still don’t see reason to convert to Christianity. How do we know that your God is the true God? I believe with all of my heart that Thor and Valhalla are real, and you're Jesus is false. If I see reason to believe otherwise, then I too, will convert to Christianity with you Vagn.” The man sat down, with almost all of the others nodding amongst the Jomsvikings. However, Henning, Thorkell and Sigvaldi’s brother, stood up to speak.


“I too did not like my brothers much, they treated me beneath them, and their plan to kill Olaf here was just too much. However, our rules make it tough for mutinies to occur. But, I also feel obliged to stick up for them, as I am confident that they would do to me, as I still love them. Instead of supporting either of your sides, I too like others of my family, take the cowards rout, and quit my service as a Jomsviking.” Henning walked away without any reaction from the Jomsvikings. He was never seen again, though he is thought to have made as of a life as one could ask within the Holy Roman Empire as a peasant.


Olaf pondered for a long time, as Henning made his departure. He was surprised that they took his speech as an attempt to convert them! Eventually, he came with an answer, then responded; “This is how you will know my God is the true God. As you know, we are to be ambushed at Swold in the upcoming days. If the battle goes in our favor, then my God is the true God. If we lose, I will die knowing that I converted unwisely. Even with you, odds are against our winning the battle.


However, if we do win, I will personally baptize each and every one of you who so chooses to join Christianity with me. I too was once a pagan man, and didn’t believe in Jesus or God, until a wise hermit showed me the light. I hope to be that man for you.”


The Jomsvikings nodded, agreeing with the counterproposal. The same Jomsviking stood up again. “I believe we have a deal, your majesty,” he said, smiling. The deal was set. Olaf smiled, and could not wait for the next day. If God should allow for victory, than he shall see his people be victorious over the infidel!

[charl]

Seems interesting. The only real objection I have is that the term Catholic isn't really relevant that far back. I don't even think it existed. And in case you aren't Scandinavian, cudors for getting the Å letter right.

[Monopolist]

I didn't know for sure about that I s'pose.

Thanks, but I'm not Scandinavian at all. I copied the name off of Wikipedia.

Glad there's interest!

[Monopolist]

After reading this, I thought for sure that I would get more than one response and a troll.

[Thinker1200]

Originally Posted by commandant spangler

After reading this, I thought for sure that I would get more than one response and a troll.

Two things:
1. I dont get the angle your going from. How does King Olaf surviving create better conditions for a surviving Vinland? But nice first post. This will be interesting to say the least.
2. Plz do not feed the troll, he doesnt deserve it.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Thinker1200

Two things:
1. I dont get the angle your going from. How does King Olaf surviving create better conditions for a surviving Vinland? But nice first post. This will be interesting to say the least.
2. Plz do not feed the troll, he doesnt deserve it.

Ja, you haven't really posted enough for anyone to comment on.

I sort of remember the name "Jomsviking", but I couldn't tell you how they were important, or how your PoD is likely to change things.

BTW, is this Saint Olaf? I'm guessing so, but there are enough people named Olaf that I wasn't sure - especially since what would a Norwegian king be doing in the Baltic...

[chornedsnorkack]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

BTW, is this Saint Olaf? I'm guessing so, but there are enough people named Olaf that I wasn't sure - especially since what would a Norwegian king be doing in the Baltic...

I suspect that it was, rather, Olaf Tryggvason?

Without Elsinore Castle and other castles AND long-range coastal guns, holding the Sound or Great Belt against a navy was difficult and often not attempted even by kings of Denmark. Olaf Tryggvason certainly was caught and enslaved sailing in Estonia (and later ransomed in Novgorod).

[Monopolist]

Yes, it is Olaf Tryggvason

Olaf Tryggvason was king of Norway from 995-1000 A.D., where he died at the naval Battle of Svold. (Svolder, Swold are also used) To prepare for a war between he and his enemies (Svein Forkbeard, Jarl Erik, and Olaf the Swede) he decided to look for allies in Pomerania. During his stay, he befriended Boleslaw the Brave, and bought the Jomsvikings. Jomsvikings were basically a badass viking mercenary organization in the early middle ages. The leader of the Jomsvikings, Jarl Sigvaldi, was a friend of Svein Forkbeard's, and was told to betray Olaf. He was told to lead him to Svold, and then attack him as their allied force attacked too. They compiled around 100 boats, to Olaf's 11, and Olaf did very well in OTL. But in the end, he jumped off of his huge boat rather than be captured, and drowned. (Though some believed for a long time that he actually didn't die, and was hiding around Europe. He was reportedly seen in Jerusalem and Rome 50 years after the battle) The main reason for the war was Olaf's ambition to rule all of Scandinavia, mainly by marriage. He married Svein's sister after his Wendish wife died. He also married an Irish princess, and attempted to marry Sigrid the Haughty, Queen of Sweden, though she rejected him due to his demand that she convert to Christianity. She eventually married Svein Forkbeard.

As for how this pertains to Vinland...

Olaf was a massive supporter of Christianity, having converted from Paganism a few years earlier. He rapidly Christianized Scandinavia, and in the process, converted Leif Ericsson. He was actually good friends with Leif Ericsson, and baptised him. I will get to Vinland in a couple days probably.

On a side note, he is the one who destroyed London Bridge, coining the children's rhyme London Bridge Is Falling Down, in 994 A.D. (or he's at least one of the prime suspects)

He's actually a very interesting character!

My next update will be the changed Battle of Svold and some events afterwards, which should be later this evening.

Thanks for the interest, and I hope I answered all of your questions!

Here are some links in case you didn't get your questions answered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Svold
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_Tryggvason
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/hi...e-svolder.html
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/hi...army-900s.html
http://www.dur.ac.uk/medieval.www/sagaconf/finlay.htm

[Monopolist]

Note: My next three updates will all be occurring simultaneously for the most part.

Olaf Tryggvason led his navy closer and closer to the ambush point at Svold, knowing after the day was done he’d be a dead man or a hero. Leading from his boat, the Long Serpent, his men reached Svold. As planned, the bulk of the Jomsvikings led by Vagn were in front of the fleet, while Olaf and Einar led from the middle, followed out by more Jomsvikings. The front Jomsvikings pass by the ambush point without any attack, which Olaf expects. As Olaf passes by, he meets a volley of arrows (luckily all missing), and the battle begins.

Olaf yells out to the enemy very unchristianly, “You Danes and Swedish dogs, I’m not afraid of you! You’re worth less than a loaf of bread! The only men in your fleet worth fearing are the Norwegian bastards! You don’t stand a chance!”

The Jomsvikings come crashing in from the front, and much to the allies surprise, they begin attacking them. With the Jomsvikings, the Norwegians begin to crush their enemies, and many allied boats go down. As Olaf predicted, the Norwegian enemies (and his own allies) were much more competent than the Danes and Swedes; if to prove, Olaf the Swede’s boat had been sunk. Soon afterwards, Einar Tambarskjelve hits a perfect shot on Svein Forkbeard. Soon, only 5 Norwegian boats remain out of the 80 boats in the beginning. Olaf calls for Erik to surrender, and submit to his command of Norway. Erik submits aboard his Iron Ram, and a truce is called. Olaf calls for Erik’s life, but Vagn manages to convince him otherwise. Vagn has a sense of honor, and having had Erik save his life 15 years earlier calls on him to do this. Olaf decides to give Jarl Erik a second chance, as he is a Norwegian, and lets him stay a Jarl of Lade, though with much lower prestige. His rank is basically that of a count to the King, and Erik lives the rest of his life in peace in the empire, with Olaf having spies around him every minute.

Now, Olaf is the King of Norway for good, and has a claim for the throne of Denmark, Sweden, and Wendland; but there are still problems with his Scandinavia ruling ambition. He still doesn’t rule Sweden, though he is the best candidate, and there are rebellions in Denmark, led by Svein’s sons Canute and Harold.

His first move is to go and fight a rebel force in Aarhus. The Jomsvikings, now a Christian order, are obedient supporters of Olaf under Jarl Vagn, and fight for him against the Danes. After several victorious small skirmishes in the northern Jutland peninsula, a large fight breaks out near Aarhus. On one side is the Danish forces, led by Cnut, (who seems to have a better military mind than his older brother) and on the other, King Olaf, who is slightly outnumbered by the rebels. But on Olaf’s side are the Jomsvikings, and they dominate the peasants that Cnut sent at them. They cut them to pieces with ease. Cnut was killed in the battle leading a desperate charge at the Norwegian king; Harold was captured. Olaf decides to give him a far worse punishment (though still somewhat decent), as he is not a Norwegian, and exiles him to what we know as Jan Mayen. (Islands very far north) After the battle, Danes accept him as ruler, as he is really the only King that can make a solid claim for the throne.

At the same time as the Danish conquest is going on, Olaf sends a general named Sigmundur Brestisson and a group of 8000 Norwegians to conquer Sweden from his near fiancé, Sigrid the Haughty, now widow of Svein Forkbeard. Sigmundur does very well, and conquers much of Sweden with overwhelming forces to the Swedes. (The Swedes don’t appreciate being under the rule of a woman very much and her being a non-Swede) In the end, Sweden gives up around 1004, and Sigmundur rapidly converts many Swedes to Christianity before his death in 1011. Olaf decides to let his family become lords of Sweden, and thus his son Tórálvur Sigmundarson becomes the next lord of Sweden.

With a claim on the Wendish throne as well, he takes over Wendland without much of a fight after King Burislav’s death in 1008 A.D. Olaf now rules all of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Wendland by 1008 A.D., with complete control of all of them after 8 years of squashing the rebels. Olaf at this point is an old man of 40.

Here is a map of the empire at 1008 A.D., and Europe. The borders are most likely off, please don't nitpick! Also, I combined some smaller countries that are fairly unimportant to the TL right now, as I'm lazy and didn't feel like making more colors on paint. The greyish country at Finland and the surrounding area are smaller Scandinavian Pagan nations. Brown is the various smaller Islamic Khanates. The pastey color is a group of tribes. I think you can figure out the rest.

As always, comments and constructive criticism are welcome!

[Monopolist]

This is where Vinland begins to come into play...

After the end of the Danish conquest, Olaf Tryggvason was at relative peace. (Though he was ready to send more troops to Sweden, he was confident in their eventual victory) Olaf was convinced by Leif Ericson (who was a good friend of Olaf’s) that Vinland needed to be more important to the Norse People. So, trusting Leif’s advice, he begins to send many more settlers to the Vinland colony, and spread the message to spread Christianity to the locals, and to become friendlier towards them.

As the Vinland colony got caught in a bit of a scurvy epidemic, a local Beothuk Christian convert who befriended the locals taught them some basic Beothuk practices to cure diseases, and to survive. (basically an OTL Squanto) After this begins to deter the disease, the Beothuk people and the Vinlanders soon became good friends, and the Beothuk, while in OTL against any contact with Europeans, become close friends with the conversian to Christianity and their aid towards each other. Soon, they decided to become allies, and they conquered the rest of what we know today as Newfoundland. After another wave of settlers came in, the Norwegians decided to start expanding their colony southwards. They decided to explore the nearby area, and found a good spot to build a major city, called New Trondheim (after Olaf's merchant capital city), which is located at modern day Quebec City. With the Beothuk as still their allies and teachers, the settlement becomes a solid success as well. Soon, it seems as if the colony will become a permanent one. Trade with the locals for things like iron and horses goes well, and many Native American furs and stuff become popular in Norway.

The Vikings become even more ambitious as the years turn to 1012 A.D. Leif Ericson, Lord of Vinland as commissioned by Olaf, decides to explore the area. After a 4 year journey of exploration, the Vikings find that they live on a giant, uncivilized new continent, mapping land from as far west as the great lakes, and as far south as Florida. After finding this, they begin to colonize further, and set up another larger settlement at modern day Montreal, calling it Leifby, or Leif's town. This settlement does well also. The Norse now have settlements all across the St. Lawrence (which the Vinlanders call Olaf-elva, or Olaf's River) After Olaf hears of how vast this continent is, he sends even more settlers, excited at the prospect of further expanding Christianity.

The prospect of becoming a settler in Vinland became an exciting one for the Vikings. If they didn’t like the life they had now, they could become almost anything they wanted to that needed work in Vinland. It gave Scandinavians who were frequently at war a chance to breathe, and begin anew. So, the population of Vinland swells up to 5 thousand in just 20 years!

Some details on Olaf’s family that I haven’t been able to fit in yet.

With his Danish Wife, he has a son (Tryggve, born 1005 A.D., and seems to be custom of the family for Tryggve to name his son Olaf and Olaf name his son Tryggve) and two daughters. The elder daughter, Aldis (born 1007 A.D.), is immediately set to be married to Boleslaw the Brave’s son Mieszko II. His other daughter, Arnkatla (born 1008 A.D.), is immediately set to be married to the Prince of Dublin Olaf Sigtryggsson, his nephew.

With his Irish Wife, he has one son, who is named Harald who was born in 1006 A.D. After Olaf decided that his Danish son would become heir, she threw a tantrum and divorced Olaf, in 1011 A.D. She moved to Ireland, and married again for alliance purposes for her brother the King of Dublin.

As always, replies are implored!

[Askelion]

I'm posting out of support for your drastic improvement since your first timeline. I hope that you don't get discouraged whilst facing reply 'famines'. Just keep it up, learn, and review your stuff before you post it.

I look forward to this timeline continuing, it's interesting and well executed.

Good Luck!
-Askelion

[Philip]

Originally Posted by charl

The only real objection I have is that the term Catholic isn't really relevant that far back. I don't even think it existed.

The term Catholic certainly did exist -- it had been in use since at least the beginning of the Second Century. Further, it was extremely relevant at that time and had been since (at least) the Council of Constantinople in AD 360. Its meaning has shift somewhat through time, but its use entirely appropriate.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by commandant spangler

As the Vinland colony got caught in a bit of a plagueish (sp?) epidemic, a local Mi’mak Christian convert who befriended the locals taught them some basic Mi’mak practices to cure diseases, and to farm. (basically an OTL Squanto) After this begins to deter the disease, the Mi'mak people and the Vinlanders soon became good friends. Soon, they decided to become allies, and they conquered the rest of what we know today as Newfoundland. After another wave of settlers came in, the Norwegians decided to start expanding their colony southwards. They decided to explore the nearby area, and found a good spot to build a major city, called New Trondheim (after Olaf's merchant capital city), which is located at modern day Quebec City. With the Mi’mak as still their allies and teachers, the settlement becomes a solid success as well. Soon, it seems as if the colony will become a permanent one. Trade with the locals for things like iron and horses goes well, and many Native American furs and stuff become popular in Norway.

The Vikings become even more ambitious as the years turn to 1012 A.D. Leif Ericson, Lord of Vinland as commissioned by Olaf, decides to explore the area. After a 2 year journey of exploration, the Vikings find that they live on a giant, uncivilized new continent, mapping land from as far west as the great lakes, and as far south as Florida. After finding this, they begin to colonize further, and set up another larger settlement at modern day Detroit, calling it Byavtrelver, or City of Three Rivers. This settlement does well also. The Norse now have settlements all across the St. Lawrence (which the Vinlanders call Olaf-elva, or Olaf's River) After Olaf hears of how vast this continent is, he sends even more settlers, excited at the prospect of further expanding Christianity.

1) Mi'kmaq only arrived in Newfoundland after the reduction/extermination of the Beothuk, IIRC.

2) Mi'kmaq at the time of European contact were essentially a hunter gatherer people - moving between summer habitation on the coast collecting seafood, and winter inland hunting upland game (especially moose). They had little agriculture, and probably had nothing to teach the Norse in terms of growing things. In terms of wild food, which plants are poisonous, which medicinal, which nutritious, yes, the locals would have been a big help.

3) can you name a single 'plague' for which any north american remedy is a cure? I'd suggest you drop that, too. If you really want the local help, you might try a scurvy cure (although that's usually only a problem before farms start, and it SOUNDS like most of this is after Leifs initial exploration, and Þorfinns initial settlement. (Since IIRC the settlement described in the sagas is very close to 1000AD, and should have already happened by the time Óláfr is ready to do anything about Vínland.)

4) I doubt highly that there would be a great demand for North American furs, as northern Europe isn't trapped out yet, AFAIK. Some, yes, certainly, but nothing like the 1700s.

5) you're going WAY, way too fast on settlement. Detroit by 2012 as a town/city!?!? Québec, sure. Montréal? by that point it's pushing it. Detroit, not a chance.

6) Northern European 'corn' (i.e. rye, barley and probably oats) should grow just fine in these areas. Maize may or may not be important in SOUTHERN Ontario at this point (burnt remains exist by then, pollen indicates it's not common until 1300 or so, so arguments can be made both ways). However, it won't be a crop on the St. Lawrence by then, anyway.

7) the Mohawk didn't control the Gaspé. There was a different Iroquoian people, probably neither Iroquois nor Huron (although often called Huron) that lived on the St. Lawrence at very initial French contact. They, however, got largely wiped out by the bigger, more prosperous groups to their south and west. In any case, it looks like the St. Lawrence Iroquoians at Québec that Cartier found in 1500s had only just arrived there, and soon pulled back due to conflict with other nations.

8) Remember iron on Bell Island in Newfoundland. Will let your Vínlanders have a much larger supply than what bog iron is available, once they discover it and start exploiting it.

[chornedsnorkack]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

2) Mi'kmaq at the time of European contact were essentially a hunter gatherer people - moving between summer habitation on the coast collecting seafood, and winter inland hunting upland game (especially moose). They had little agriculture, and probably had nothing to teach the Norse in terms of growing things.

Nor are they easily and quickly conquered, or easily allied with for conquest. But neither do they easily ally against conquest.

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

5) you're going WAY, way too fast on settlement. Detroit by 2012 as a town/city!?!? Québec, sure. Montréal? by that point it's pushing it. Detroit, not a chance.

I do not think Montreal is pushing it. After all, Montreal and Lachine rapids are the head of navigation. For the shallow-draft (1,5 m max) Viking ships it is not so important to stop at Anticosti island of Quebec or Three rivers. The Vikings did ignore the mouth and source of the Neva till 1300 and settled at the foot of the rapids of Volkhov in Ladoga. The Dutch founded Albany at the head of navigation on Hudson 2 years before founding New Amsterdam at the mouth.

The point is, narrows and mouths are less important. The logical points of settlement are portages and heads of navigation.

After Montreal, the next logical spot of settlement is Thousand Islands, which opens Lake Ontario for Viking ships (Saint Lawrence has 3 longish rapids separated by 2 smaller lakes). Then the Niagara Portage, between Queenston/Lewiston and Grass Island Pool, which opens the middle lakes. Then Saint Mary Rapids and Chicago Portage. Detroit is not important, because Detroit River is deep and tranquil.

de Soto covered a lot of South-East North America in 3 years, 1539-1542, with 620 men in the beginning, half of whom survived.

If, in 1012, Olaf sends an expedition to North America with orders to explore overland from Montreal, how far can they get, logistically?

[Monopolist]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

1) Mi'kmaq only arrived in Newfoundland after the reduction/extermination of the Beothuk, IIRC.

2) Mi'kmaq at the time of European contact were essentially a hunter gatherer people - moving between summer habitation on the coast collecting seafood, and winter inland hunting upland game (especially moose). They had little agriculture, and probably had nothing to teach the Norse in terms of growing things. In terms of wild food, which plants are poisonous, which medicinal, which nutritious, yes, the locals would have been a big help.

3) can you name a single 'plague' for which any north american remedy is a cure? I'd suggest you drop that, too. If you really want the local help, you might try a scurvy cure (although that's usually only a problem before farms start, and it SOUNDS like most of this is after Leifs initial exploration, and Þorfinns initial settlement. (Since IIRC the settlement described in the sagas is very close to 1000AD, and should have already happened by the time Óláfr is ready to do anything about Vínland.)

4) I doubt highly that there would be a great demand for North American furs, as northern Europe isn't trapped out yet, AFAIK. Some, yes, certainly, but nothing like the 1700s.

5) you're going WAY, way too fast on settlement. Detroit by 2012 as a town/city!?!? Québec, sure. Montréal? by that point it's pushing it. Detroit, not a chance.

6) Northern European 'corn' (i.e. rye, barley and probably oats) should grow just fine in these areas. Maize may or may not be important in SOUTHERN Ontario at this point (burnt remains exist by then, pollen indicates it's not common until 1300 or so, so arguments can be made both ways). However, it won't be a crop on the St. Lawrence by then, anyway.

7) the Mohawk didn't control the Gaspé. There was a different Iroquoian people, probably neither Iroquois nor Huron (although often called Huron) that lived on the St. Lawrence at very initial French contact. They, however, got largely wiped out by the bigger, more prosperous groups to their south and west. In any case, it looks like the St. Lawrence Iroquoians at Québec that Cartier found in 1500s had only just arrived there, and soon pulled back due to conflict with other nations.

8) Remember iron on Bell Island in Newfoundland. Will let your Vínlanders have a much larger supply than what bog iron is available, once they discover it and start exploiting it.

1. I got the two mixed up while writing. (Though in my defense, they are related tribes)

2. While you are right, the main message was that they became friends and taught them how to survive in North America.

3. There are no specific details on the plague/disease (which it was likely more of, plagueish was a bad Word choice) so I did a bit of handwavium and assumed it was a North American disease. The natives knew many cures, and I would assume that what they could do would deter it. I like your scurvy idea though, I may change that.

4. The trapping buisness is beginning earlier in the New World because of it being a more "exotic" thing to wear, and may have made it more fashionable and expensive quicker than in OTL. Yes there are plenty of furs in Scandinavia, but they are the "boring" furs. New furs, even if they have no idea where they came from, make for a more interesting piece of clothing. Basically, the trapping trend begins a bit quicker.

5. Detroit was a bit fast wasn't it. Being a Michigander, I had to take the oppurtunity. I will likely move it up a bit to say Montreal or something that Chornedsnorckack said. BTW, when I say city at this point, I mean something like 750+ people.

6. I will use that in the near future

7. I never mentioned the Iroquois or the Mohawk.
The Iroquois acutally were in the Northern New York/Southern Canada region area since 1000 A.D.

8. They will be using that shortly as well.

@chorned snorkack
I can make it take a bit longer I suppose, as you're right.

Thanks for the advice. I hope to post an update tonight.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by commandant spangler

1. I got the two mixed up while writing. (Though in my defense, they are related tribes)

OK, but in this case the Beothuk have even LESS to offer, IIRC they didn't have pottery or ANY kind of agriculture. The Mi'kmaq at least had some little amounts of it.

Originally Posted by commandant spangler

4. The trapping buisness is beginning earlier in the New World because of it being a more "exotic" thing to wear, and may have made it more fashionable and expensive quicker than in OTL. Yes there are plenty of furs in Scandinavia, but they are the "boring" furs. New furs, even if they have no idea where they came from, make for a more interesting piece of clothing. Basically, the trapping trend begins a bit quicker.

Err.. but what furs does North America have that Europe doesn't? Skunk? Seriously, aside from the one very rare marten-ish animal, and the American Mink (which fur-wise isn't much different from European mink, is it?), what does the New world have? Most of the fur-bearing animals are, if not the same species, at least sister species.

Oh, and raccoons, but they provide lousy fur, IIRC.

Basically, by about 1600 or a bit earlier, all the easily reachable fur in Europe was trapped out, which made North American fur valuable. That hasn't happened by 1000.

Originally Posted by commandant spangler

5. Detroit was a bit fast wasn't it. Being a Michigander, I had to take the oppurtunity. I will likely move it up a bit to say Montreal or something that Chornedsnorckack said. BTW, when I say city at this point, I mean something like 750+ people.

Ja, but if you look at the evolution of New France, 750 is a LOT of people. OTL, Montreal wasn't founded until 1639; less than 50 people in 1651 (after Iroquois raids); 140 new settlers in 1653.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._of_the_French

As Chornedsnack(sp?) said, the Norse COULD do an entirely different settlement pattern. I did say Montreal was possible in your time frame (even if it was MUCH faster than OTL). It's partly a matter of number of immigrants and how fast they want to spread. So, if the will is there, it is not pushing it (much at least). I'll stand corrected on that.

I do note that you've got 5000 settlers coming in in 20 years. This is ALREADY rather more than the OTL French settlement of the first ?century? The initial population of New France was something like 3k people, that's it, which grew by repeated doubling to the, what, 8 million? of today.

Some sort of 'show the flag' post in the Detroit area with 10-20 fur-traders would be possible, but that would be about the limit.

Originally Posted by commandant spangler

6. I will use that in the near future

the other HUGE agricultural innovation they can bring is farm animals. 1) meat supply 2) draft animals make plowing possible 3) milk (not helpful for the locals, mind) 4) CLOTHING

It is entirely possible that the population limits of the European contact era Iroquois were due to the number of deer it took to make a year's CLOTHING. That hunting, in this instance, was far more important for hides than for food!

Adding wool and domestic leather will be HUGE.

5) Manure. The Iroquoians had to shift their villages every, oh say 20 years or so, because the fertility of the land suffered. If you can replenish nutrients with animal manure, as Europeans did, you don't have to uproot and move so often, AND have a higher end population density.

Originally Posted by commandant spangler

7. I never mentioned the Iroquois or the Mohawk.
The Iroquois acutally were in the Northern New York/Southern Canada region area since 1000 A.D.

Blast and tarnation. I DISTINCTLY remember a line that went something like 'Mi'kmaq allies pushed the Mohawk halfway down Gaspé peninsula'. But looking at this thread, it's not here. Was it another thread, or was I hallucinating? Anyway. Sorry. You are quite right.

Actually, the Iroquois per se were NOT in Eastern Ontario, Quebec and far northern NY, although Iroquoians were.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Lawrence_Iroquoians
This group was wiped out shortly after European contact by the Iroquois (Mohawk) moving north, and the Hurons sensu stricto moving east.

8. They will be using that shortly as well.

Ja, I like pushing that iron supply. It's massively underutilized in TLs (including OTL).

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack

Nor are they easily and quickly conquered, or easily allied with for conquest. But neither do they easily ally against conquest.

Oh, agreed. I was specifically talking about 'Squanto-esque locals teaching the Norse how to farm'.

Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack

I do not think Montreal is pushing it. After all, Montreal and Lachine rapids are the head of navigation. For the shallow-draft (1,5 m max) Viking ships it is not so important to stop at Anticosti island of Quebec or Three rivers. The Vikings did ignore the mouth and source of the Neva till 1300 and settled at the foot of the rapids of Volkhov in Ladoga. The Dutch founded Albany at the head of navigation on Hudson 2 years before founding New Amsterdam at the mouth.

The point is, narrows and mouths are less important. The logical points of settlement are portages and heads of navigation.

Right you are. I wasn't aware of the Russian example, but I did know of the Dutch one. I was being too constrained by the OTL incredibly slow spread of the French. See the previous post. And, yes, the Norse could very, very easily move faster. Montreal 12 years after Anse aux Meadows is still pushing it IMO, but, given the will, not pushing it beyond reason.

de Soto covered a lot of South-East North America in 3 years, 1539-1542, with 620 men in the beginning, half of whom survived.

If, in 1012, Olaf sends an expedition to North America with orders to explore overland from Montreal, how far can they get, logistically?

Logistically? A small band of men with iron knives and beads? Anywhere they bloody well want to! In addition to Le Soto, you have La Salle, and several others. OTL, some of those explorations went from Montreal to the Mouth of the Mississippi, covering huge chunks of the Mississippi watershed in like 3 years of travel. (numbers off the top of my head, so not reliable, but something like that.) With good canoes, you can go anywhere there's rivers, basically.

[Monopolist]

Whoops
You're right about the furs. My animal knowledge is even lower than I thought! Upon further review, you are absoulutely right about that. Oh well...

You could be right about my really pushing the Scandinavian expansion in Vinland a little too ASBish. But, spoiler, the next king won't be very New World expansiony at all, if it makes you feel any better.

As for the Iroquois, on the Wikipedia page for Iroquois it said they were in the Northern New York area in 1000 A.D. I don't know who's telling the truth!!!!!

Thanks for the help! I am far from an expert on the colonization of North America, and really didn't research much on it before posting, which was a silly idea.

[chornedsnorkack]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Basically, by about 1600 or a bit earlier, all the easily reachable fur in
Ja, but if you look at the evolution of New France, 750 is a LOT of people. OTL, Montreal wasn't founded until 1639; less than 50 people in 1651 (after Iroquois raids);

Yes, but this was precisely because the Iroquois were hostile. Champlain wanted to found a trading post right away, but the Iroquois resisted successfully, so the initial settlements were Quebec and Tadoussac further from Iroquois.

If Iroquois are not yet there then there is no reason not to pick Montreal right away. And with Viking ships, river Saint Lawrence between Montreal and Quebec is not an issue. It did matter a bit for 17th century deep-hulled oceangoing ships, because Lake Saint Pierre is roughly 3 m deep. Like the depth of Neva Bay, where Peter founded Kronstadt and St. Petersburg precisely because new ships could not sail up the Neva.

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

I do note that you've got 5000 settlers coming in in 20 years. This is ALREADY rather more than the OTL French settlement of the first ?century? The initial population of New France was something like 3k people, that's it, which grew by repeated doubling to the, what, 8 million? of today.

The population of Greenland was 560 in 1 year. Would have been 1000 but for a storm. The population of Iceland was about 20 000 in 222 years (874 to 1096), but Iceland was regarded as "fully settled" in 56 years, and plainly overpopulated and mostly deforested in 100 years.

11th century Norwegians would find maritime Canada a much more familiar region than 17th century French peasants found Canada, or than 9th century Norwegians found Iceland. 17th century French were not familiar with long snow and ice cover and conifer forests in France, and the Norwegians missed warm summers, conifer forests and reliably ripening corn in Iceland.

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Some sort of 'show the flag' post in the Detroit area with 10-20 fur-traders would be possible, but that would be about the limit.

Such a post would not be attempted in a few years - too weak compared to locals. Fur trading would be done by Viking ships (30-40 men) meeting with locals and sailing back to homebase.

I was being too constrained by the OTL incredibly slow spread of the French. See the previous post. And, yes, the Norse could very, very easily move faster. Montreal 12 years after Anse aux Meadows is still pushing it IMO, but, given the will, not pushing it beyond reason.

Erik the Red spent the 3 years of his exile sailing and exploring the west coast of Greenland, to the far north, before returning to Iceland to fetch settlers and then settling down at Brattahlid. Given what Cartier achieved in 2 years, 1534-1535, exploring the Canadian Maritime coast till Lachine rapids would be neither logistically hard nor out of character for Norse right after Anse aux Meadows.

And when Erik returned with settlers, he right away directed a part of them (the 560 who came) to Western Settlement a long distance to the North. Seeing how Montreal is an obvious point for trade, placing a settlement at Montreal quickly would be quite feasible.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by commandant spangler

Whoops
You're right about the furs. My animal knowledge is even lower than I thought! Upon further review, you are absoulutely right about that. Oh well...

You are also right about my really pushing the Scandinavian expansion in Vinland a little to ASBish. But, spoiler, the next king won't be very New World expansiony at all, if it makes you feel any better.

As for the Iroquois, on the Wikipedia page for Iroquois it said they were in the Northern New York area in 1000 A.D. I don't know who's telling the truth!!!!!

Thanks for the help! I am far from an expert on the colonization of North America, and really didn't research much on it before posting, which was a silly idea.

Iroquois held territory from roughly Buffalo to (not quite) Albany, including all of the south shore of Lake Ontario in NY, which certainly counts as 'northern', especially to someone from The City. However, the far north of NY (e.g. Watertown, Ogdensburg) was held by a different Iroquoian group AT THE TIME OF CONTACT, and for some time before. AFAIK they were not part of the Huron federation, but were possibly culturally Huron. They were relatively quickly wiped out/assimilated by the Mohawk (the ones in OTL NY) and the Huron (the ones in far eastern Ontario and Montreal area). Since the Mohawk have controlled the area for a long time, people often forget there were others there beforehand.