Haiti as the first world ex-colonial country?

After the news of the disaster that struck Haiti, I was intrigued to search the history and found out that they were the second colonial country to gain independence. Is it possible that Haiti became the major power from the New World, instead of the thirteen colonies?
Sure the thirteen colonies had a 28 year start, but could the PoD be after independence? Or does it have to be centuries back? Or is this downright ASB?

Condolences to the people of Haiti
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Well they could be a great power. I mean, though they are slaves they through off the shackles while the Americans were financed by a France in order to fight the British. So now you have a distinct lack of higher skills in Haiti because the owners are the ones with the educations, not the slaves. You won't see slaves teaching in universities, so I doubt they will build them until they need them or they can pay someone to build them. And no one will trade with these slaves, not if they want to keep their lives in France.

However if you go the other route and keep British North America as is you might see a Pan-slave revolt in the New World.:cool:
 

Typo

Banned
After the news of the disaster that struck Haiti, I was intrigued to search the history and found out that they were the second colonial country to gain independence. Is it possible that Haiti became the major power from the New World, instead of the thirteen colonies?
Sure the thirteen colonies had a 28 year start, but could the PoD be after independence? Or does it have to be centuries back? Or is this downright ASB?

Condolences to the people of Haiti
Not possible, Haiti doesn't have the space to expand or the free population to become a great power.
 
Hmmmm. I'm not really an expert on the situation or anything, but a couple of thoughts.

First, it appears that French Reparations after the rebellion were really what crippled and impoverished Haiti after independence and handicapped the country big time. If that doesn't happen, Haiti's trajectory would likely be substantially different. How different I'm not sure how to guess.

Another approach might be a less vacillating and more constructive French approach to Haiti during the French Revolutionary period. The situation really seemed to drift slowly into the toilet because the parties kept zigging when the other was zagging and vice versa. It might be that the right policy positions at the right time might have dramatically affected the outcome and produced a Haiti which gained independence on less brutal terms. Perhaps even something like Canadian devolution. Who knows.

Another variable might have been British support.

And certainly there might have been potential opportunities for Haiti at that time, if things had played differently. There were other French possessions in the Caribbean which Haiti might have usurped during this period of time or shortly thereafter.

And other opportunities may have shown up. In the 1820's, Spain was weak and lost control of most of its New World colonies. During this time, Haiti actually conquered the Spanish half of the Island and ruled it for almost a generation. Conceivably, with more advantages, or with French or British support an expansive Haiti might have consolidated the whole Island and even pushed into Puerto Rico and Cuba, who knows, maybe even Florida (when did the US acquire Florida?)

In the 1830's Britain renounced slavery, which caused economic and social disruptions throughout the British caribbean possessions. So there might have been an expansion opportunity there.

All this is seat of the pants guessing. It would take considerably more time and effort to try and develop it plausibly, if it could be done. Could be a worthwhile challenge.

I suppose if someone was sufficiently ambitious, they might try for a Haiti Wank in which Haiti is actually a Caribbean spanning federation or empire. If anyone wants to go for it, I'd love to read it.
 
Alexander Numinen said:
I saw your Haiti thread I wanted to post a reply, but my account is brand new and I apparently can't post yet.

Anyway, there is a man you should know about: François-Dominique Toussaint Louverture. He lead the Haitian revolution from France, and was by all accounts an excellent military and political leader. He was overthrown and imprisoned by the French, and died in 1803. If he somehow avoided being overthrown, or escaped prison and returned to power, he could theoretically have done much to make Haiti a first world nation.

Here's his Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toussaint_Louverture

That was a private message, well it's not private anymore :D
I have to agree, he was a former slave, he could get the support of the slaves from other french colonies as well, (Guadalope, Guiana), he was also educated

Any ideas on how? :confused:
 

terence

Banned
While watching all of the begging-bowl appeals and the TV footage of the inevitable looting and mayhem, I also wondered about Haiti's place in history.
If the country didn't exist, someone plotting a Hollywood doom movie would have to have invented it. What a toilet!
They have never had anything approaching democracy. They have never attempted to forge anything approaching a just society. They live in shit and revel in it. They make the worst African cesspool look good. When face with a disaster, be in Hurricane, Storm or Earthquake they just loot from their neighbours and demand, yes DEMAND that the world helps them. What a shame the whole Earth didn't open up and swallow the entire sewer.
 
I agree that the French rveolution is the place to change things: Napoleon's attempt to re-enslave Haiti was both futile and an utter catastrophe for both countries (damn you, Josephine!). Avoid that, and have more good luck and correct choices, and Haiti may not become a great power (it doesn't have the capacity) but it may end up not such a bad place to live.

The war of independance was massively desructive for Haiti. It killed hundreds of people, polarised the differant sections of society, and gave all the power to unscrupulous and spendthrift military leaders who plotted against one another and divided the country. The plantation system broke down and the country was only exporting coffee because it grew wild. Money was wasted on palaces and European-style ostentation.

If the French had remained abolitionist for whatever reason and taken Amiens as an opportunity to send over people to help develop the revolution in Haiti (and, of course, keep a close eye on its government), Toussaint would remain governor-for-life under nominal French rule. He had the popularity and credibility to lead the whole revolutionary movement, he kept up a lot of the colonial infrastructure on a Nixon-China basis (being himself of enslaved birth, unlike the largely mulatto revolutionary leaders and officers), and pursued a sensible foreign policy.

Even taking over Santo Domingo, where society is very differant, was ambitious in the long term. A caribbean slave-rebel empire is cool, but not plausible, and Toussaint knew that. He did the sensible thing and promised Britain and America that he wouldn't cause any trouble, whilst corrsponding with sympathisers (note the Wordsworth sonnet in his honour) and keeping up prosperous trade, which is another important thing about his regime: he kept the plantations running on the basis of military discipline. During the division of Haiti, this system fell apart in the south and things really started to go to pot.

Another very important thing is that if Haiti is a nominal colony, it won't have to spend buckets of its own money paying off the despicable slavers back in France, which was necessary to make sure they didn't lobby for another invasion OTL, and put the country massively in debt.

So, France stays abolitionist, Toussaint lives a bit longer (we'll give him good luck and let him outlast the war in Europe, however long it is) and establishes a firm personal regime with the colonial state functioning and the people working the plantations as labour battalions. France invests in the colony as an important sugar-producer. By the time Haiti and France amicably split some time in the future, the country has a much firmer basis of infrastructure, a stronger state tradition, and a secure fiscal situation, allowing it to better weather the natural disasters that assail it.

Or it might stay French: the other islands have.

While watching all of the begging-bowl appeals and the TV footage of the inevitable looting and mayhem, I also wondered about Haiti's place in history.
If the country didn't exist, someone plotting a Hollywood doom movie would have to have invented it. What a toilet!
They have never had anything approaching democracy. They have never attempted to forge anything approaching a just society. They live in shit and revel in it. They make the worst African cesspool look good. When face with a disaster, be in Hurricane, Storm or Earthquake they just loot from their neighbours and demand, yes DEMAND that the world helps them. What a shame the whole Earth didn't open up and swallow the entire sewer.

I've wanted to report you since you called Atlee and Mountbatten communist traitors to my country. Thanks for obliging me with this ludicrously prejudiced insult to one of the most geographically and historically unfortunate nations in the world.
 
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Nikephoros

Banned
Although Haiti can possibly, if they are lucky, become a first world nation, they won't eclipse the United States of America, or whatever the thirteen colonies become ITTL.
 
Haiti is one of the shittiest patches of land in the Western hemisphere for anything other than Sugar or Tobacco plantations (both of which really need slavery to turn a profit) - there is just not the economic base to leverage into being a power. A polity that encompased all of Hispaniola would have a better chance, but then that wouldn't really be Haiti as the Dominicans would be the slight majority.

You could certainly see a better Haiti, but that's generally dependent on events elsewhere as earlier posters noted. You could have a CSA survives the ACW scenario in which the North builds up Haiti in order to block Confederate expansion in the Caribbean.
 

Faeelin

Banned
So, France stays abolitionist, Toussaint lives a bit longer (we'll give him good luck and let him outlast the war in Europe, however long it is) and establishes a firm personal regime with the colonial state functioning and the people working the plantations as labour battalions. France invests in the colony as an important sugar-producer. By the time Haiti and France amicably split some time in the future, the country has a much firmer basis of infrastructure, a stronger state tradition, and a secure fiscal situation, allowing it to better weather the natural disasters that assail it.

I wonder, though. While sugar plantations run by labor battalions lets us add Thandish totalitarianism to any Revolution, how viable will this bein the long run? Eventually you have the fact that the Haitian economy is based around cash crops...
 
I would assume the labor-battalions thing would (in theory) be a temporary measure due to the post-revolutionary situation.

Of course, "temporary" measures sometimes don't stay that way.

Hmm...could the plantations be organized into some kind of joint-stock situation with all the workers having shares, or perhaps even early collective farms?

Caribbean syndicalism in the 19th Century!
 
While watching all of the begging-bowl appeals and the TV footage of the inevitable looting and mayhem, I also wondered about Haiti's place in history.
If the country didn't exist, someone plotting a Hollywood doom movie would have to have invented it. What a toilet!
They have never had anything approaching democracy. They have never attempted to forge anything approaching a just society. They live in shit and revel in it. They make the worst African cesspool look good. When face with a disaster, be in Hurricane, Storm or Earthquake they just loot from their neighbours and demand, yes DEMAND that the world helps them. What a shame the whole Earth didn't open up and swallow the entire sewer.
Ummm, troll much?
Anyway, I think the main limiting factor for Haiti is the relatively small size of the island its on (is it Hispanola?). Maybe if they build a navy, they could expand to other carribean islands, but seeing as how not many slaves will have the knowedge necessary to build ships...
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
While watching all of the begging-bowl appeals and the TV footage of the inevitable looting and mayhem, I also wondered about Haiti's place in history.
If the country didn't exist, someone plotting a Hollywood doom movie would have to have invented it. What a toilet!
They have never had anything approaching democracy. They have never attempted to forge anything approaching a just society. They live in shit and revel in it. They make the worst African cesspool look good. When face with a disaster, be in Hurricane, Storm or Earthquake they just loot from their neighbours and demand, yes DEMAND that the world helps them. What a shame the whole Earth didn't open up and swallow the entire sewer.

Banned .
 
Relatively small countries, given the right historical breaks, have often ended up punching way out of their weight class. Portugal and Netherlands during the age of exploration are the examples that come most readily to mind. I'm not sure that the size of Haiti is all that probative. Indeed, in Haiti's early history, it controlled the entire island.

As for the techniques of ship construction and sailing, this was the high technology of the day, but it wasn't exactly inaccessible technology. We're not talking designing microchips here.

Here's a sloppy, half baked, seat of the pants timeline for a Super-Haiti.

* Instead of muddling about every which way trying to sort out the situations of whites, maroons and blacks, France, in response to insurrection, reorganizes the place granting universal emancipation, but managing to pacify the planters and and the mulattos.

* Toussaint Louverature does not end up in jail, but accepts the compromise, remaining as effective leader of the place.

* In response to similar pressures from Guadelope and Martinique, France basically installs similar policies and creates the French Caribbean as a series of departments with nominally the same status as French homeland departments. In practical reality, this amounts to a sort of home rule.

* Haiti becomes the fulcrum of French power and operations in the New World, so a portion of the French fleet is stationned there.

* Eventually, the Revolution gets taken over by Napolean, who looks over the place and decides he's got other fish to fry. During the Napoleanic campaigns, Haiti is increasingly left to its own devices, or relied upon to guard other french possessions.

* With the fall of Napoleon, the crushing of the Revolution and restoration of the Monarchy, there's an effort to reinstitute slavery or at least direct control. Doesnt' work.

* Haiti declares independence, France is in no position to enforce, and the British are inclined to support it in order to weaken France in the region. Toussaint takes over. The breakaway also includes the other Caribbean possessions of France, all the way down to French Guiana. It also includes a Haitianized portion of the French navy, giving the Haitians a nucleous of naval power.

* The Latin American revolutions break out. Rioting and insurrection emerges in the Dominican side of Hispanolia. Toussaint moves in and takes over, fairly similar to our timeline. Haiti now controls the resources and population of the whole Island.

* The Haitian takeover of Hispanolia leads to war with Spain, at the worst possible time for Spain - devastated by the Napoleanic wars and beleagured by revolts through the whole of the New World. The Haitian fleet lands first in Puerto Rico, and dislodges the Spanish there. After that, Toussaint begins a Napoleanic campaign for the conquest of Cuba.

* With the expulsion of Spain, Haiti ends up in control of most of the major caribbean islands, except for Jamaica, and sharing the caribbean with only Britain and the Netherlands.

* The next generation sees a period of consolidation and economic rationalisation. The Haitian Empire/Federation adopts creole as its official language, with spanish and french and various hybrid dialects in common use. It remains heavily agricultural, producing rum, sugar, tobacco and coffee for the European and American markets. Nevertheless, there are several attempts to develop a proto-industrial base, particularly in respect of refining agricultural products. But also to build urban infrastructure, particularly fortifications and weapons (memories of wars and revolutions being fresh in everyone's mind). There's a major effort at establishing shipbuilding centres of various sorts, with much emphasis on ships designed for local traffic and communication.

* The Haitians encounter considerable hostility from the United States, which is wrestling with its own slavery issue. On the other hand, relations with the British Empire are quite close - the British tend to see the Haitians as proxy's and catspaws - they've neatly excluded the French and Spanish from the Caribbean, they're a roadblock against the Americans in the region. The downside for the British is that the Haitians are economic rivals producing the same goods and products that the British caribbean colonies do, and giving the local slaves unhappy ideas.

* Relations with the british become increasingly strained and ambiguous over the next few decades. As a result of tensions, the Haitians work to develop their own transatlantic trading fleets and networks.

* The British caribbean possessions become increasingly problematic, there are more and more slave revolts, support for slavery within the British homeland wanes. Britain renounces slavery and emancipates the territories. After this, the British caribbean becomes a net financial drain, unreliable and not terribly useful. The British continue to hold on for strategic purposes. But they take no position and make no objection when the Haitians sweep the Dutch possessions from the Caribbean and South America. The British possessions devolve into informal economic colonies of Haiti and some islands change hands.

* Tensions with the United States remain high and escalate, however. Folowing 1840 and the Mexican American war, arising from economic conflicts, American meddling in British caribbean territories and competition in central america, the Haitian-American war breaks out. American forces land in Cuba, which becomes the principle battlefield. The war also has a naval component, with extensive use of privateers raiding Haitian coastlines and shipping. In return, New Orleans is burned, and the Haitians raid widely along the Gulf of Mexico coasts. The war ends inconcusively, but with the Americans withdrawing from Cuba. This marks the high point of Haitian power. Recriminations after the end of the Haitian-American war contribute to the American civil war.

* The next few decades are ones of stability - there is a 'Homeland' movement to ship freed slaves from America to Haiti, and there is considerable voluntary immigration. Haiti's industrial effort tends to stall out however, with agricultural production and commerce occupying available capital.

* Haitian involvement with central America increases steadily, and the region becomes an informal Haitian colony, although there are competing influences from Mexico and Columbia locally, and from Britain and the United States. In the effort to consolidate control, the Haitians initiate the great Nicaragua Canal Project.

* The canal consumes decades of work and a considerable portion of Haiti's resources. It is completed in 1890, however it never comes close to justifying its immense costs for Haitian society. Haiti is recognized as a world power, expanding its empire displacing Spain in Guam and Hawaii, trade relations with China, and even staking out territories in Africa. Nevertheless, Haiti has long passed its economic peak. In particular, Britain, the United States, Germany and France have left Haiti far behind in terms of industrialization and industrial clout. Haiti's economy is increasingly hidebound and backwards.

* World War 1, when it hits, proves an economic disaster for the Haitians, who find that markets for their agricultural products have collapsed. The Haitians lack the industrial base to be self sustaining. The economic decline continues to worsen through the 1920's, with the Haitian/Nicaraguan canal coming under League of Nations jurisdiction. The depression is painful.

* Oddly, the depression sees the beginnings of reorganization of the Haitian economy, including the imposition of various socialist measures and a concerted effort at Industrial development.

* The Haitians wind up on the right side of WWII, playing a relatively minor role but benefiting economically. The Haitian industrial economy finds ready markets for war production and supply, and expands dramatically. Later after the war, the destruction of German and Japanese industrial bases allow the Haitian manufacturing complexes to continue to thrive.

* Haiti is given considerable credit for the disintegration of the African colonial empires through the 1960's and 1970's, though it is argued that this would have occurred even without their involvement. Haitian diplomacy results in larger consolidated African states, including East Africa, Somali-Ethiopia, West Africa, and Central Africa. In the Caribbean, Jamaica and Guyana opts for independence, but other British possessions end up joining with Haiti, sometimes with a degree of involuntariness. The Haitians acquire their new territories through diplomacy, and manage to avoid Argentina's more aggressive and disastrous approach.

* However, in the later half of the twentieth century, economically, Haiti remains a borderline first world/third world state, heavily dependent upon agriculture, with some relative industrial decline, particularly in comparison to emerging Europe and Asia.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Hmm...could the plantations be organized into some kind of joint-stock situation with all the workers having shares, or perhaps even early collective farms?

Caribbean syndicalism in the 19th Century!



My concern is if the end result is anything like OTL's American South, the freed slaves won't want to grow cash crops. So collectivization, with all that entails, is the right word.
 
I don't think you're ever going to make Haiti a world power, TBH. The Great Powers are far too deeply entrenched in the Carribean, and it's going to take superhuman strength to dislodge them.

The other problem that Haiti faces is that her people only desire to be subsistence farmers. There's a massive reluctance on the part of the average Haitian peasant to work on a plantation, in any shape or form, meaning that a proper cash-crop economy can only ever be sustained by force. And whenever the government resorts to force, it becomes a slave owner, and gets overthrown.

Someone mentioned some sort of 19th century Carribean syndicalism with workers recieving a portion of the plantation's profits. If a Haitian political philosopher could work out a system based around this idea, and a compotent Haitian government adops it, it has the potential to make plantation work more appealing. Let's not forget that Haiti has the ability to make a LOT of money in her early years: the French would have rather lost all their north American colonies than Haiti. With control consolidated over Santo Domingo, and a mobilised workforce producing internationally desired sugar and coffee, Haiti will be a small-scale economic power in the early 19th century.

The other thing which Haiti would need to avoid is the political instability which periodically wracked the island in OTL. Foreign capital is often reluctant to invest in unstable places, which means Haiti missed out on much industrial development. Whoever you unite the island under will need to be a tyrant: Haiti has always had plenty of them, but the question is which is best for the economy. Toussaint showed a lot of promise, but was cruely cut off by the French. The only other semi-compotent leader I could imagine being willing to enact the economic policies neccessary would be Henri-Christophe.

For a POD, I would assume that Henri-Christophe unites the island under his banner, crushing the coup attempt which displaced him in real life, and sweeping south with his still-loyal army to displace Petion's republic. One state was as shaky as the other, but Christophe's had a far better economy, built ont he back of the virtual serfdom that he kept his labourers in. With the leaders of the republic captured, killed or exiled, Christophe could be securely crowned as king of the entirety of Haiti, before opportunistically annexing Santo Domingo when the opportunity arises. Resistance in the wake of this conquest is going to be high: the populace of southern Haiti had been free to pursue subsitence farming under the Petion regime. Christophe, however, recognises this and pursues a more liberal economic policy than in his own, securely held northern domains.

One of Christophe's major policies in OTL was to bring his country more into the British sphere of influence: by giving the British a good enough price for Haitian sugar, or allowing British capital into his country, Christophe could lay the foundations of an industrial revolution, albeit a foreign owned and very small scale one. The British know that the man is a despot, and tread carefully as a result. The British involvement is, however, enough to scare the French away, who never get round to forcing Haiti to pay the massive reparations which crippled her in OTL. They are, nonetheless, reluctant to recognise Haiti, and Haiti continues to go unrecognised internationally, save by the Latin American republics to the south.

Henri-Christophe dies in the 1820s (he was already quite an old man by the time his army deposed him in OTL). He is succeeded by his European educated son Henri II, who in his time at universities in Europe has learnt much more liberal policies than his father. As a black student in white universities, he will have gravitated towards those of a more liberal mindset, and have been infected with many of their ideals. His hasty recall and coronation in Haiti is popular with much of the population, who look forward to a more gentle regime than they had known under his tyrannical father. The young king immediately looks to mitigate the conditions of the labourers on the plantations by placing limits on working hours, instituting a minimum wage, an education system and - most importantly - giving labourers a share of the profits accruing. Suddenly, people on plantations discover that they have disposable income, as well as the time to cultivate their own small patches of land. Haiti's economy booms as her own, locally based industries, although foreign owned, move to meet market demand. By 1850, Haiti is a comparatively prosperous nation with a well educated population, a productive cash economy, and the beginings of an industrial revolution. She also has a navy capable of scaring most other powers in the region and, most importantly, the threat of any French re-assertion has receeded. It isn't entirely ASB to imagine a Haitian role in the Scramble for Africa as a respected member of the international community and a known fighter against slavery :D
 
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I wonder, though. While sugar plantations run by labor battalions lets us add Thandish totalitarianism to any Revolution, how viable will this bein the long run? Eventually you have the fact that the Haitian economy is based around cash crops...

The problem is that high density sugar plantations (the type you need to really turn a profit in Haiti) generally have high mortality rates. Sure you could use prison labour, but they'll all be dead in 3-5 years and you'll start feeding on future population growth.

Not to mention the decades after Haiti independence is when sugarbeet production kicked off in europe and the big Brazilian operations got going - they aren't going to produce it cheap enough to overcome other regions advantages of scale and positioning without resorting to horrible conditions for the whole population.
 
Ian, i mean no disrespect whatsoever to you, but he was just stating his opinion on the Haiti matter.Thats like somone reporting me because i support socialism.
 
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