"Fascist" Australia

Scarecrow · May 2, 2005

In the 1930's in Sydney there was a para-military group called the New Guard. they were very pro-Empire, etc. one of them, a man called De Groot, charged in on a horse and cut the ribbon to open the Sydney harbour bridge, just before the NSW premier was about to. now in what kind of scenario could the New Guard come to power? perhaps in a Entente looses WW1 TL? the party line is modified to being anti-Empire?

so say that they win power. being analogus with Harry Turtltedove, and have WA as a 'louisiana', that is an area that is not like the rest of the nation, so they might try to seceede

does anyone have any knowledge of the New Guard flag/regalia?

MarkA · May 2, 2005

The New Guard was the visible paramilitary wing in NSW of a vast Australia-wide far-right group of secret armies. Members included Kingsford-Smith and many senior police and army personel. The Old Guard was the secret controlling organization and was much smaller. The New Guard had about 30,000 members at its height. The left could mobilize about 40,000 to meet them in the streets. All the various secret armies had one common thread running through them. Every major organization's head was also a member of the Round Table. The Round Table was established as an Empire wide organization by Cecil Rhodes. Whether the Round Table ever acually acted as a coordinating body has not been established.

When the secretary of the Seaman's Union was arrested and threatened with deportation, the union appealled to the Supreme Court of NSW. The court handed down an injunction preventing the illegal deportation. PM Lyons then had secret talks with the Old Guard to get the New Guard to kidnap and deport him. The Prime Minister was in fact a party to a conspiracy to break the law by violent means and to use an extreme right-wing group to do so. A short step to a fascist like state.

The attempt was thwarted by the NSW police who had informants on the inside of the New Guard.

DMA · May 3, 2005

Hhhhuuummmm - how can the New Guard take over. I bit of a difficult one this as most Australians have always been put off by extremist groups of one persuasion or another. And if things look like something nasty is going to happen politically, the majority will run off to whatever centre-right party happens to be around at the time, whether it be the Liberals or the United Australia Party.

About the only plausible scenario I can think of is if the Old/New Guard decide to move in on one of the major political parties. Now I don't mean an alliance, but a take over. So several New Guard members win pre-selection as UAP candidates come the next Federal election, get elected to Parliament, & end up with the most seats within the UAP itself. That way, not only do they end up controlling the policies UAP, but they are also legitimate members of Parliament. Obviously, if the UAP wins enough seats, they form the government. Needless to say, this government would have many facist policies & it'll be completely lawful (for the most part).

Scarecrow · May 3, 2005

hmm. not quite what i had in mind, i was still hoping for a 'pure' NG victory, as i had the idea of a story about a boy in depression era Melbourne going to the Melbourne cup and running into Eric Camp/bel, leader and PM.

any knowledge of the regalia?

wkwillis · May 3, 2005

A leftist counterrevolution in Australia and the flight of the German socialists to Australia? Generations of German descended Australians would still be toasting Herr Hitler! If this is exile, chain me to the bulwark!

Scarecrow · May 3, 2005

wkwillis said:
A leftist counterrevolution in Australia and the flight of the German socialists to Australia? Generations of German descended Australians would still be toasting Herr Hitler! If this is exile, chain me to the bulwark!

huh

the New Guard is right wing conservative, but the link with hitler got me thinking...perhaps in a world where the NG came to power they still made the request to King Edward to come to Australia, and he agrees, we leave the commonwealth, with Edward as the figurehead, ally ourselves with the Axis...and take over New Zealand?

MarkA · May 3, 2005

The New Guard and all the other right-wing secret armies were Empire loyalists. To do anything to harm the interests of the Empire would be unthinkable to them.

Part of the confusion I think is the terminology. They were not fascist in any sense although they admired Mussolini's Italy. Then again so did mainstream conservatives like Menzies. They were however violently anti-socialist and anti-catholic and anti-semetic and anti-republican and anti-progressive and anti-union. In other words, they simply reflected upper class and middle class values in both Australia and the rest of the Empire.

In that sense they saw themselves as simply the armed citizenry prepared to uphold thier ancient rights as Britons. As for regalia, I don't think they had any but simply used Imperial imagry and military pagentary.

wkwillis · May 3, 2005

Tasmania as Taiwan for the Australian Right?
This is important because then the rest of Australia drifts left with no anchor. The right 5% and and center right 15% progressively move to Tasmania as the country changes, and the local Tasmanians move to the mainland as their territory changes under them.
The export of capital keeps Australia's dollar devalued. This helps industrialize Australia. An industrial Australia is important from the point of view of fighting Japan in the thirties or forties.
Now if only I could get Australia a big sub navy. They're going to need that, and an airforce to defend themselves. Also, an alliance with the Republic of India would help.

Scarecrow · May 3, 2005

wkwillis said:
Tasmania as Taiwan for the Australian Right?
This is important because then the rest of Australia drifts left with no anchor. The right 5% and and center right 15% progressively move to Tasmania as the country changes, and the local Tasmanians move to the mainland as their territory changes under them.
The export of capital keeps Australia's dollar devalued. This helps industrialize Australia. An industrial Australia is important from the point of view of fighting Japan in the thirties or forties.
Now if only I could get Australia a big sub navy. They're going to need that, and an airforce to defend themselves. Also, an alliance with the Republic of India would help.

why in Hell would the Indians ally themselves with us in the 30's, after they were humiliated by Hughes 13 points at Westminster?

i am now fond of the New Guard rule under King Edward, but i think the 'taiwan' could be WA. i see an actual violent attempt at sucession, away from the dictatorship of the East? i agree with your points about industrialisation, perhaps the Snowy river scheme 25-odd years early? i see a timeline in the future...

DMA · May 4, 2005

Well the whole problem with the New Guard gaining government in its own right is the political behaviour of the majority of Australians. Put simply they won't vote for them. In fact the majority of Australians won't for for any radical or extreme party. They never voted for communists, socialists, facists, in the past, or even recently with One Nation. Similarly, the Christain right parties, whether they be the Christian Democrats (Fred Nile's group) or the new Family First party, the majority of Australians won't vote for them. Instead 80% of Australians vote for either the ALP, Nationals, or the Liberals (or their historical ancestors the Country Party or the UAP).

Now the other way to taking over the government is if the New Guard tries for a violent coup requiring military type actions. Now they may have 30 000 or so members, so they do have the numbers to attempt a coup, but then they'll have, not only the federal & state governments against them, but you can bet that all the Unionists will be against them too. And considering there would be close to 500 000 Unionists around Australia, the New Guard will be heavily outnumbered. Furthermore, if the New Guard did try to conduct a coup, any support within the general Australian population will evaporate immediately as, although most of us may not like this or that political party, 95% of them won't support any such action by the New Guard.

Scarecrow · May 4, 2005

DMA said:
Well the whole problem with the New Guard gaining government in its own right is the political behaviour of the majority of Australians. Put simply they won't vote for them. In fact the majority of Australians won't for for any radical or extreme party. They never voted for communists, socialists, facists, in the past, or even recently with One Nation. Similarly, the Christain right parties, whether they be the Christian Democrats (Fred Nile's group) or the new Family First party, the majority of Australians won't vote for them. Instead 80% of Australians vote for either the ALP, Nationals, or the Liberals (or their historical ancestors the Country Party or the UAP).

Now the other way to taking over the government is if the New Guard tries for a violent coup requiring military type actions. Now they may have 30 000 or so members, so they do have the numbers to attempt a coup, but then they'll have, not only the federal & state governments against them, but you can bet that all the Unionists will be against them too. And considering there would be close to 500 000 Unionists around Australia, the New Guard will be heavily outnumbered. Furthermore, if the New Guard did try to conduct a coup, any support within the general Australian population will evaporate immediately as, although most of us may not like this or that political party, 95% of them won't support any such action by the New Guard.

what if they took over a party, such as the UAP? and the new guard wernt the only proto-fascist group in Aus, there was a plethora of them, but not enough to beat the unionists alone...i have some other ideas for a TL about this, but they need fleshing out, such as how America would attack Japan without a base such as Australia?

DMA · May 5, 2005

Scarecrow said:
what if they took over a party, such as the UAP? and the new guard wernt the only proto-fascist group in Aus, there was a plethora of them, but not enough to beat the unionists alone...i have some other ideas for a TL about this, but they need fleshing out, such as how America would attack Japan without a base such as Australia?

Well first off you'll find that all of those facist groups won't act in concert, unlike the union movement in Australia. Furthermore, even if they did unite, you'll still find that the unionists will greatly out number them.

Having said that, such things could change, as I said earlier, if the New Guard "captured" a political party in a manner akin to how the Labor Party acts mostly as a political branch of the union movement. So have enough New Guard candidates win pre-selection as UAP members.

The next step is obvious: if the New Guard wins enough seats, not only can they form the majority in the UAP, but they could then go on to form a government. There would be no need for bloody revolutions or riots in the streets. Importantly, the New Guard takeover would be completely legal.

Now if the New Guard/UAP government can cut crime, lower unemployment, & make the trains run on time, you'll find the majority of Australians will go along with them, especially during the Great Depression, even if several civil liberties were violated, because they'd appear to be more so the UAP rather than the ratbag radical New Guard. And just as importantly, unlike the USA, we don't have any Constitutional Bill of Rights, so there's little stopping a UAP/New Guard government from introducing extremist legislation when they gain government. Even today, a government can act in a rather facist manner & be completely legal in doing so.

As for not being a base for American/British operations against the Japanese in WW2 - if we remained neutral in WW2, I really don't think it'll matter all that much. In fact the Americans, instead of having to spread out their forces throughout the Pacific, can instead concentrate their forces. In doing so, they'll be far more powerful, although it's fair to say that the Japanese can do the same. So I'd expect a battle, much bigger than Midway, taking place. In fact there may be several large naval engagements akin to Midway throughout the Pacific albeit close to Pearl Harbor. Nevertheless, American industrial capacity will soon outstrip Japan ending with Japan's defeat probably around the same time as the OTL.

Chef Kyle · May 5, 2005

MarkA said:
The New Guard ... were however violently... anti-semetic...

Some of their supporters were a bit confused in this regard. Just ask Monash. No-one was really sure who the national leader was, though the book Defending the National Tuckshop, which talks about them, strongly implies that it was Blamey, at that time Police Commissioner for Victoria, later Field Marshal Sir.

Anyway, the secret army held a mobilisation one night. All across Victoria and NSW they were told, "the communists are about to attempt a coup! Defend the country!" So they ran out to pre-arranged positions to defend dams and power stations and so on. In one town, they gathered together all the Catholics in the town hall and locked them up.

Shortly after dawn, they realised it had all been a false alarm, and went home feeling rather sheepish, and quite embarassed that they'd been so willing to take up arms against their fellow innocent Australians. They publicly apologised to the Catholics they'd locked up.

After this, membership of the secret armies dwindled to nothing. So, there was almost a coup, but it fizzled out. It's the Commonwealth way. We simply can't get excited enough about politics for long enough to mount coups. We might get carried away, but we think better of it afterwards and say sorry.

Anyway, while all this was going on quietly, all these little secret armies not knowing who was in charge, people were openly saying, "Australia needs a strong leader! But, um, who could it be?" Some senior businessmen went to General Sir John Monash, and asked him to do it. He told them that if they wanted to influence politics, they should go and form a party like everyone else, and if they spoke to him again, he'd go to the police. They chickened out after that

Funny thing is, Monash was a lifelong practicing Jew, the first Jewish full General in the world. So, not all crazy right-wingers were anti-semitic

There was never any prospect of a communist attempt at a coup, either. In the 1930s they had less than a thousand active members. By the 1950s, many of those members were influential in trade unions, and managed to rig a few trade union elections to get themselves in charge, but this was soon run over by equally dodgy methods from the Catholic Labor Right wing of the trade union movement.

A military coup in Australia at any time is about as likely as a pro-British monarchist coup in the USA today.

Count Dearborn · May 5, 2005

What if the British Fascists had emigrated to Australia, and took over the New Guard, and were able to then co-op one of the political parties. Say, someone assassinates a prominent, popular politician. In the chaos, the party get themselves enough seats in the Australian Government to create a coalition. Australia goes the way of the way of Germany, and instead of the sub pens in Antartica, they are in Australia. Australia becomes like Spain, and all of the Nazis escape there at the end of the war. They then help the Nationalists take control of China, and they have a new ally in Asia.

DMA · May 5, 2005

Count Deerborn said:
What if the British Fascists had emigrated to Australia, and took over the New Guard, and were able to then co-op one of the political parties. Say, someone assassinates a prominent, popular politician. In the chaos, the party get themselves enough seats in the Australian Government to create a coalition. Australia goes the way of the way of Germany, and instead of the sub pens in Antartica, they are in Australia. Australia becomes like Spain, and all of the Nazis escape there at the end of the war. They then help the Nationalists take control of China, and they have a new ally in Asia.

Well the problem here is mainstream Australian political parties wouldn't have much to do with the New Guard or anyone else facist related. They may do the occasional deal, though, but not an alliance. As Kyle & I have said - Australians simply won't support extremist groups, regardless they be of the left or right, for very long. And if it appears that some major crisis is in the offing, the great majority will only support what's considered safe - in other words basically the status quo.

On another point, if there's an assassination in Australia there's no need to have a general election. There would simply be a by-election. The general Federal Election would take place as part of the normal affairs of government.

Furthermore, there's the reaction of the Australian public to consider. Now many may not like, in fact they may even hate, a certain PM or Minister, maybe even their local MP, but few Australians (other than the ratbag fringe) would support anything like an assassination. And any party, which may have dealings with a group who did assassinate someone, would discover very quickly that their voter support would disappear overnight.

Now as for coalitions - the Australian body politic is basically already set on this course. We have the Labor Party, which basically keeps to itself, then the coalition (in the 1930s) of the United Australia Party & the Country Party. There is also the National Australia Party (Billy Hughes' ALP defectors) involved in this coalition as well. The thing is, though, none of these parties have anything extremist to them. Having said that, the most likely party that could be hijacked is the UAP, as it did flirt with the New Guard plus it is the largest of the Anti-Labor parties.

The problem, though, with the coalition scenario is the uneasy balance of the three coalition parties. I would suspect that the first to jump ship, so to speak, should the UAP become facist, would be the Nationals, as they are a pseudo centre-left party. The Country Party, though, would probably go along with the UAP, but that'll mean to say that the UAP-Country coalition won't have the numbers to form government.

Scarecrow · May 6, 2005

hmmm. very interesting all of you. heres a question DMA, what if Australia was an Axis state instead of Neutral/Allied? i guess it would be seen as a 'Italy of the Pacific'?

i am actualy considering doing this 'New-Guard-takes-over-UAP-and-has-King-Edward-as-Australian-monarch-and-is-member-of-Axis' TL up over the Uni Semester break. i will have to break my own rules by having a different design for Canberra, the runner up in the competition, which was kinda 'fascist', and since the competition was done before the POD...

or could i have that as the POD, and the NG swallows up the UAP as a butterfly effect

DMA · May 6, 2005

Scarecrow said:
hmmm. very interesting all of you. heres a question DMA, what if Australia was an Axis state instead of Neutral/Allied? i guess it would be seen as a 'Italy of the Pacific'?

Well I think it's hard enough to stretch it to the point that we remain neutral, but joining the Axis powers is getting into ASB territory. I really can't see, especially if you're going with the Edward as GG/King routine, that Australia will become an Axis member. Now if we did, we wouldn't last very long. We'd probably be more or less left alone until the end in 1945. And if we then didn't surrender, well a city or two (Brisbane &/or Sydney maybe) would probably get nuked.

Scarecrow said:
i am actualy considering doing this 'New-Guard-takes-over-UAP-and-has-King-Edward-as-Australian-monarch-and-is-member-of-Axis' TL up over the Uni Semester break. i will have to break my own rules by having a different design for Canberra, the runner up in the competition, which was kinda 'fascist', and since the competition was done before the POD...

or could i have that as the POD, and the NG swallows up the UAP as a butterfly effect

I'd go for the New Guard hijacks/takes over the UAP, & not the swallow up option, as I think it's about the only realistic scenario. It'd have to start, however, somewhere around 1920. Maybe have the Washingtion Naval Treaty as the thing that sparks it off, what with Australia loosing its only capital warship without having a say in the matter. Then, throughout the 1920s, the New Guard faction in the UAP slowly grows until the Great Depression hits.

So by 1932, life in Australia, like elsewhere, is pretty tough, so the more extreme thoughts of the New Guard faction, within the UAP, may begin to replace the more usual UAP policies. And if emphasis is placed upon Australian produce, factories, & above all jobs, first, there would be popular support around this time for such policies.

However, there still needs to be some major crisis to happen, in order for the ALP to loose favour with a great many Australians. Well guess what? There is one. Lang's dismissal maybe just what's needed for the majority of the population to leave the ALP & vote UAP/NG. And if enough new UAP MPs are also New Guard faction members, well the New Guard faction may have enough members to control UAP policy.

Obviously there'll still be enough traditional UAP MPs around, & senior enough to ensure a non-New Guard faction member becomes PM, but he'll be more or less a figurehead PM than a real PM. A few years later, as the New Guard/UAP government tightens its grip on power, a New Guard member could then become PM.

So it is possible, but the UAP wouldn't be swallowed up by the New Guard. There'll still be plenty of the old UAP members around in order to stop that happening - especially at first. Furthermore, regardless what the UAP may want to do, it'll still need the Country Party in order to form a coalition government. So again the New Guard is, in effect, limited in what it can do for a while. Having said that, once a New Guard PM comes along, in say 1937, things could change rapidly down towards a one party facist state. But it'll take a while for that to happen as banning other political parties requires changes to the Constitution. And we all know that's next to impossible.

Scarecrow · May 6, 2005

DMA said:
Well I think it's hard enough to stretch it to the point that we remain neutral, but joining the Axis powers is getting into ASB territory. I really can't see, especially if you're going with the Edward as GG/King routine, that Australia will become an Axis member. Now if we did, we wouldn't last very long. We'd probably be more or less left alone until the end in 1945. And if we then didn't surrender, well a city or two (Brisbane &/or Sydney maybe) would probably get nuked.

yeah, i am going with King Edward of Austrlia Idea, as i think the NG would still want him as thier king.

DMA said:
I'd go for the New Guard hijacks/takes over the UAP, & not the swallow up option, as I think it's about the only realistic scenario. It'd have to start, however, somewhere around 1920. Maybe have the Washingtion Naval Treaty as the thing that sparks it off, what with Australia loosing its only capital warship without having a say in the matter. Then, throughout the 1920s, the New Guard faction in the UAP slowly grows until the Great Depression hits.

hmm, ok so i guess one way of doing that would be to have Cambel keep his fascist tendencies hidden, which doesnt scare away some members of the NG. the Guard develops a political wing, and hijacks the UAP in the East. Cambel can be voted in as leader of the UAP at some time perhaps?

DMA said:
However, there still needs to be some major crisis to happen, in order for the ALP to loose favour with a great many Australians. Well guess what? There is one. Lang's dismissal maybe just what's needed for the majority of the population to leave the ALP & vote UAP/NG. And if enough new UAP MPs are also New Guard faction members, well the New Guard faction may have enough members to control UAP policy.

Obviously there'll still be enough traditional UAP MPs around, & senior enough to ensure a non-New Guard faction member becomes PM, but he'll be more or less a figurehead PM than a real PM. A few years later, as the New Guard/UAP government tightens its grip on power, a New Guard member could then become PM.

So it is possible, but the UAP wouldn't be swallowed up by the New Guard. There'll still be plenty of the old UAP members around in order to stop that happening - especially at first. Furthermore, regardless what the UAP may want to do, it'll still need the Country Party in order to form a coalition government. So again the New Guard is, in effect, limited in what it can do for a while. Having said that, once a New Guard PM comes along, in say 1937, things could change rapidly down towards a one party facist state. But it'll take a while for that to happen as banning other political parties requires changes to the Constitution. And we all know that's next to impossible.

I plan to have a NG member, prob Cambel replace Lyons as PM. De Groot for a puppet GG?
what if there is a 'Reichstag fire' incident, perhaps the WA sucessionists get violent, and blow up a portion the railway linking us to the east? i will have to work on the constitutional part.

incidently, do you know much about the alternate designs of Canberra? perticulerly those of Agache and Saarinen? here is a pic of Saarinens design

DMA · May 6, 2005

Scarecrow said:
yeah, i am going with King Edward of Austrlia Idea, as i think the NG would still want him as thier king.

Well I'll agree that the NG would support the idea, but how does the Australian govt get away with having Edward as king of Australia, especially if he's not King of the UK? Such a thing would probably need a referendum. BTW what dates are we talking?

Scarecrow said:
hmm, ok so i guess one way of doing that would be to have Cambel keep his fascist tendencies hidden, which doesnt scare away some members of the NG. the Guard develops a political wing, and hijacks the UAP in the East. Cambel can be voted in as leader of the UAP at some time perhaps?

Well he could, provided he gets the numbers. Again it depends upon the date. And there is a guy called Menzies hanging around the UAP...

Scarecrow said:
I plan to have a NG member, prob Cambel replace Lyons as PM.

This could be done, but he'll have competition from Menzies. You'll have to deal with Menzies somehow.

Scarecrow said:
De Groot for a puppet GG?

If you have Edward as King of Australia, there won't be a GG, as I gather Edward would be living here.

Scarecrow said:
what if there is a 'Reichstag fire' incident, perhaps the WA sucessionists get violent, and blow up a portion the railway linking us to the east? i will have to work on the constitutional part.

Well, if you have a facist NG/UAP govt in Canberra, whilst WA tries to leave, particularly if it's violent etc, then the NG/UAP will send in the troops, & WA will be under martial law.

Scarecrow said:
incidently, do you know much about the alternate designs of Canberra? perticulerly those of Agache and Saarinen? here is a pic of Saarinens design

I lived in Canberra for a while. It's a dump. And I don't think it'll matter who designs the place, it'll still be a dump

. Anyway, the design of Canberra was well & truly decided in the early 1920s. So I can't see how the NG can effect the design of Canberra unless they bulldoze everything & start again somewhere in the late 1930s. And I don't think that'll happen.

Thande · May 6, 2005

Has ANY purpose-built capital ever turned out well? (Okay, maybe Brasilia...maybe). I can't help thinking that if we'd done that for whatever reason, the capital of Britain would now be Milton Keynes.