the roman's go to America

[Mister Abbadon]

What if the Roman's decide to go across the Atlantic and on the off chance they make it to North or south america what will happen
PS I know this is implausibble you don't have to remind me

[carlton_bach]

Most likely outcome: nothing will happen. Yes, there's islands out there. So?

[Umbral]

It is not totally impossible that the occasional lost roman ship did land in the Americas. The problem is, the Romans really had no shortage of (what they considered) howling wilderness inhabited by barbarians, or remote nations.

The problem is getting the Romans motivated to do something about the Americas.

[Monopolist]

gotta agree with umbral; Rome was fighting a bunch of barbarians anyway. Why fight what they'd consider others across a giant ocean?

[Lyly]

FYI, to make a plural, you don't need to add an apostrophe. Just "Romans" does fine.

[Octavian]

Well, let's say they do go across the Atlantic. How are they supposed to know where they are, as far as they are concerned they might was well be in Germania. Let's say they decide they want to colonize it, they would need motivation, which they wouldn't find at first without going to look for gold or other resources. Finally, they would have to get back to Europe and then come back again if they wanted to create a colony. Not that likely, but possible.

[Cook]

This is a Hypothetical website so let’s stick with Mister Abbadon’s original idea of the Romans getting across the Atlantic.
It’s not as far fetched as all that, the Vikings managed to get there using the same level of technology.
Let’s have the Romans use the same northern route that the Vikings used later, taking advantage of the Ice free North Atlantic prior to the Cooling that took place at the end of the Medieval Warm Period.
What is their Motivation? We don’t know, but I’m sure there are a few good options.
Perhaps we are dealing with refugees from one of the civil wars.
So a Roman fleet reaches the coast of North America and head south looking for good arable land. They reach what in OTL is New Hampshire and Maine and settle. Establishing their first towns they trade with the indigenous population, exchanging farm products, tools, fashions and most importantly Technology.
The locals start adopting Roman ideas and products, not because they are forced to but because they can see the benefits of doing so.
The Iron Age arrives in North America before 400AD!
Wheat begins to replace Maize, doubling the yield per acre of land.
The Romans bring with them horses and cattle, revolutionising transportation of people and products, as do the wheel and that most Roman of all Civil Engineering projects: roads.
The concept of Money revolutionizes the power structures of Pre-Columbian America.
Let’s then assume that contact is lost between the two continents, either at the same time as it was in OTL (14th century) or earlier.
Time passes…
Christopher Columbus encounters ships based on the bireme when he arrives in the Caribbean.
Or Hernan Cortez arrives on the coast of Mexico and is confronted by a large army carrying Iron swords, wearing chain mail armour and with it’s own cavalry and catapult artillery. This would not be the Aztecs; the entire evolution of Civilisation in the Americas would have been drastically altered.
Dutch and English traders arriving on the coast of North America would find large cities and people who not only know the value of coins but who drive a very hard bargain.
Would they wear Togas? Almost certainly not, fashions change and besides, most of the people they are descended from would have been Native Americans.
The Romans in North America would have taken time to get established. Roman ideas taking root and spreading out, accelerating growth on the Continent. But in the mean time Europe was suffering the Dark Ages.
Who would in fact be discovering who the second time around?

[Germaniac]

In all likelyhood a roman fleet wandering onto the north american continent will be a result of a storm traveling from the north of Britannia.

Lets say a fleet of 30-50 ships gets thrown off track. Traveling the northern route they come across Iceland getting some supplies and keep going. Eventually landing somewhere near nova scotia. Seeing that the land is not really suitable for a settlement. continued moving south to somewhere likely near New Jersey along the Delaware valley. By the landing there will likely be around 10 ships if that left. 200 on a boat, though at least 50-60% are dead of sea illnessed. So lets say there are 800 men left alive total, with maybe 300-400 roman citizens.

They will form a small settlement on the delaware river and the Roman citizens will form the upper class of this society, which will intermarry with the local peoples. Eventually the romans will disappear after a few generations of intermarrige, leaving behind them a likely advanced (for pre colombian standards) society in the delaware valley.

Generations go by and When columbus sails and opens up the new world they will find stange boats which look oddly advanced (its unlikely the europeans will really recognized roman enginering) When europeans venture to the Delaware valley and advanced society (again for precolombians) will be enountoured with stories of the "People who came before" and about the gifts these gods brought. They will also probably still have some Latin base in their language... Very much suprising the europeans when they pick up on words that the natives are speaking.

In the end, all of them, or at least most, are conquered and die of diseases which the romans could not have brought to the natives, but are brought by these European explorers. It takes until the modern era for people to really start to discover about the romans first experience in the Americas.

[AmIndHistoryAuthor]

Originally Posted by Germaniac

....So lets say there are 800 men left alive total, with maybe 300-400 roman citizens.

They will form a small settlement on the delaware river and the Roman citizens will form the upper class of this society, which will intermarry with the local peoples. Eventually the romans will disappear after a few generations of intermarrige, leaving behind them a likely advanced (for pre colombian standards) society in the delaware valley.

Generations go by and When columbus sails and opens up the new world they will find stange boats which look oddly advanced (its unlikely the europeans will really recognized roman enginering) When europeans venture to the Delaware valley and advanced society (again for precolombians) will be enountoured with stories of the "People who came before" and about the gifts these gods brought. They will also probably still have some Latin base in their language... Very much suprising the europeans when they pick up on words that the natives are speaking.

In the end, all of them, or at least most, are conquered and die of diseases which the romans could not have brought to the natives, but are brought by these European explorers. It takes until the modern era for people to really start to discover about the romans first experience in the Americas.

There's a lot of older semi discredited ideas in there, that Europeans were oh so more advanced than Indians being the most obvious and noxious. In terms of many things like medicine, they really weren't. Romans, like most Europeans, were pretty damned unsanitary for example. Same with little things like, oh, basic ideas about democracy and human rights and women's rights.

And the basic premise of a lot of diffusionist ideas, that anything advanced among Indians tribes must've come from somewhere else, is pretty discredited. For one thing, we know of many cases where Europeans came and intermarried wholesale among Indians, the "lost colony" or Roanoke likely the largest example. People like the Lumbee and Melungeons as well. They adopted Indian ways, not the other way around.

Incidentally there were Indians who came to the Roman Empire. There's also one Indian scholar, Jack Forbes, who argues it's quite possible Indians could've voyaged to Europe. The currents favor North America to Europe travel more than vice versa, and some tribes like the Taino were quite good sailors.

[charl]

Originally Posted by AmIndHistoryAuthor

Incidentally there were Indians who came to the Roman Empire. There's also one Indian scholar, Jack Forbes, who argues it's quite possible Indians could've voyaged to Europe. The currents favor North America to Europe travel more than vice versa, and some tribes like the Taino were quite good sailors.

I'm sorry, but: what?!

I'm not saying the pre-Columbians were necessarily less advanced than the Europeans of the time, or that they were bad sailors, but that sounds like pure, unadulterated ASB bullshit. Citation needed, my friend. And a single scholar's speculations don't count.

[wkwillis]

If some ship finds Madeira and the ship has a beehive aboard, then the Romans could start colonising the Atlantic islands. Sooner or later they find their way to the Americas by island hopping and getting lost in bad weather, and the Colombian exchange gets started for seeds, breeding stock, diseases, and technologies.
No beehive, no colony on Madeira. Most European crops were honeybee polinated.
The other way is following the trade winds around Africa since the optimum course will put you offshore Brazil.
A third way is the invention of gunpowder, followed by the invention of coal mining, followed by global warming, followed by crossing the Bering straits while taking the Northern passage en route to your vinyards in Siberia.

[Umbric Man]

Originally Posted by charl

I'm sorry, but: what?!

I'm not saying the pre-Columbians were necessarily less advanced than the Europeans of the time, or that they were bad sailors, but that sounds like pure, unadulterated ASB bullshit. Citation needed, my friend. And a single scholar's speculations don't count.

Aye, agreed. Anything less and this will prove his posts are going to be lulzy.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by wkwillis

If some ship finds Madeira and the ship has a beehive aboard, then the Romans could start colonising the Atlantic islands. Sooner or later they find their way to the Americas by island hopping and getting lost in bad weather, and the Colombian exchange gets started for seeds, breeding stock, diseases, and technologies.
No beehive, no colony on Madeira. Most European crops were honeybee polinated.

I suspect that most crops will pollinate acceptably with native bees. Honey bees make it easier to make sure that there's a colony close by, but mostly shouldn't be NECESSARY.

However, a storm tossed fleet is not going to have a whole lot of crops on board. No fruit tree saplings, likely no fruit seeds. About all they'd likely have that would be usable would be grain used for food. Even that, they might not save enough for a crop the next spring. Nor would they likely have breeding stock of livestock - a some pigs or sheep or cows, possibly - but they're all going to be female. (Again, assuming they weren't all eaten.) The mostly likely livestock to be able to breed is horses if some doofus officer has an uncut stallion.

Grains, by the way, are mostly wind pollinated, so you don't have to worry about bees at all there.


Ummm... Those comments probably apply to the Atlantic islands, which is what your post specifically refered to. I was thinking of a few storm-tossed reaching all the way to America, I'll admit.

[The Kiat]

I remember reading about how some Roman (or maybe it was Greek) pottery was found off the coast of Brazil. Whether this was a wayward Roman ship blown way off course and sunk, or if it came from a much later ship to Brazil, that sunk, I have no idea.

[Cook]

"Romans, like most Europeans, were pretty damned unsanitary for example. "

Not true.
The Roman Republic and Empire had cities with clean fresh water supplied to public baths, toilets and fountains.
This water was delivered by aquaduct, often from hundreds of kilometres away.
They also had storm water and sewerage systems to remove the city's waste.
Rome at it's height was a City of 1.5 million people.
They also had extensive knowledge of surgery, as evidenced by the skeletons of gladiators and soldiers showing old healed wounds.
The Romans were at the height of their Empire well before the Maya hit their stride.
So having a Roman settlement arrive in North America would mean a massive technology boost to the locals.
A short list of things that they'd have taken with them and introduced to the locals as are:
The Wheel. < Rather a biggy that.
Iron tools. < Revolutionary.
Horses and cattle < Maybe they make the crossing, maybe not.
A money based economy < Vital.
The water wheel for grinding grain < Not re-used in Europe until the Middle Ages.
I'm sure others can think of a longer list.

It's also important to get past the Hollywood stereotype.
Much of Rome's expansion was from forging alliances and many ideas regarded as Roman by us were adopted from their neighbours and spread throughout the empire.

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by Cook

"Romans, like most Europeans, were pretty damned unsanitary for example. "

Not true.
The Roman Republic and Empire had cities with clean fresh water supplied to public baths, toilets and fountains.
This water was delivered by aquaduct, often from hundreds of kilometres away.
They also had storm water and sewerage systems to remove the city's waste.

Aqueducts are a luxury item, neither considered necessary fpor urban living nor evidence pof particular sanitary habits. Now, I'm a Roman fanboy if ever there was one, but you may want to read G.E. Thüry: Müll und Marmorsäulen. Siedlungshygiene in der römischen Antike, Mainz, Philipp v. Zabern Verlag 2001. Bit of an eye-opener, I'm afraid.

Rome at it's height was a City of 1.5 million people.
They also had extensive knowledge of surgery, as evidenced by the skeletons of gladiators and soldiers showing old healed wounds.

No doubt, but medical art was pretty advanced in many other parts of the world as well. I doubt the Romans had much to teach that would work in a completely different flora and fauna. Certainly the Renaissance doctors thatcame over - not greatly more advanced than their ancestors - immediately set about trying to understand the materia medica of the new world from its inhabitants. Romans were generally unburdened by any delusions iof superiority and happy to learn from others.

The Romans were at the height of their Empire well before the Maya hit their stride.
So having a Roman settlement arrive in North America would mean a massive technology boost to the locals.

Only if the settlement lasted long enough and sustained contact. The scenario suggesteed here is very ulnikely to have a lasting effect. As Europeans were forced to learn in the 19th and 20th century, having mastered a technology is not necessarily the same as being able to transfer it. A lot of pre-modern technology was dependent on its natural environment in many more ways that we commonly assume, and not all of it translated well.

A short list of things that they'd have taken with them and introduced to the locals as are:
The Wheel. < Rather a biggy that.

Within limits. Wheels require roads to work to best effect. Yes, it's a nice thing to have, but unless you have a social and material infrastructure that takes advantage of it, that's all it is. Now, if you manage to export the social model, you're in business in a big way.

Iron tools. < Revolutionary.

Assuming the technology actually translates, rather than just the objects. It took early modern Europeans a fair while until they made their own iron in the Americas, and iron is a comparatively easy metal. The Romans, as far as we know, relied on sourcing different ores rather than refining and altering what they had for different applications, so it's not a given that what iron deposits they do exploit will be suitable for their purposes. Without sufficient time to establish themselves, they may never manage a sustainable technolöogy base.

Horses and cattle < Maybe they make the crossing, maybe not.

If they don't, the Roman model of agriculture will fail. It is going to be hard enough to sustain even with them.

A money based economy < Vital.

That one is almost impossible to see being exported without full political dominance. Not even the Germanic tribes adopted that, and they were in direct contact with Rome for centuries.

The water wheel for grinding grain < Not re-used in Europe until the Middle Ages.
I'm sure others can think of a longer list.

I'm thinking more of a different one. A Roman settlement away from its roots and cut off from contact, or at least reduced to very limited communication, will likely revert to all manner of simpler technologies because the social network and exchange mechanisms that sustained its native system no longer exists. Animal husbabndy is likely to be the biggest single item - goats, sheep, pigs, donkeys and poultry are primary candidates, cattle and horses would have a big impact if they can be established. Pottery is likely to be transformative in the northern communities that don't use it. Iron and copper alloys, if the technology crosses over, will be big, of course. I am not convinced the Mediterranean crop package will work on its own, more likely the Romans will adopt and supplement the local one.

All of this depends on a sustained presence. A single group of sailors would most likely dissolve into the local population without a trace, or starve to death trying to survive on their own.

[AmIndHistoryAuthor]

Originally Posted by charl

I'm sorry, but: what?!

I'm not saying the pre-Columbians were necessarily less advanced than the Europeans of the time, or that they were bad sailors, but that sounds like pure, unadulterated ASB bullshit. Citation needed, my friend. And a single scholar's speculations don't count.

Oh brother.

Just because you never heard of this before is no cause for you to explode with childish insults.

Loewen, among others, discusses it briefly in Lies My Teacher Told Me. I recall it as being in the first chapter.

His original source was Roman historians. The Indians were put on display in the Roman slave market and caused quite a sensation.

My original point was pretty simple. No one would credibly claim that the origins of European or Roman cultures would lie with American Indians. Even the history of brief contact throws some people such as yourself for a loop. The diffusionist notion that Indians would be heavily influenced by a small group of Romans is equally unlikely. Romans in America would've been a curiousity much like the Indians who wound up in the Roman Empire. (They did so accidentally, BTW, without even trying. That's how simple it was to cross the ocean eastwards.)

And yet in spite of the evidence saying contact for Indians going to Europe is actually easier than the reverse, you conclude against all reason that what we already know happened is somehow ASB. You have this idea entrenched in your head of Indians as primitive and perhaps the Americas as somehow surrounded by a magical force field until Columbus and Vikings pierce it in the heroic mythology westerners have built up over the events.

But for that you're not really to blame because the schools encourage this notion, which is itself ASB.

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by Umbric Man

Aye, agreed. Anything less and this will prove his posts are going to be lulzy.

Will Pomponius Mela be good enough?

III, 38

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/pomponius3.html

testem autem rei Quintum Metellum Celerem adicit, eumque ita rettulisse commemorat: cum Galliae pro consule praeesset, Indos quosdam a rege Botorum dono sibi datos; unde in eas terras devenissent requirendo cognosse, vi tempestatium ex Indicis aequoribus abreptos, emensosque quae intererant, tandem in Germaniae litora exisse.

'Indians' reaching the coast of Germania after being blown off course in a storm.

[MrP]

I must confess to being a bit puzzled that anyone would regard it as impossible that Indians and Romans met. After all, the Roman and Chinese empire were aware of one another's existence, which implies some form of communication. Is this not commonly known?

[ninebucks]

Erm. Surely that refers to actual Indians, rather than Native Americans?