Obligatory nationalist thread- Accelerated Finnish maritime development TL

Obligatory nationalist thread - Accelerated Finnish maritime development TL

Note: As everyone is required to write at least one somewhat nationalistic timeline, here's my take on this. Inspired by Archangel's Megaprojects I'm including a strong civilian component here. Let's see if this is too obscure for any comments! :D

I The Navy Law and the Merchant Navy Law - 1925-1929

Finnish Navy was established in 1918 using a hodge-podge of Czarist Navy ships left to Finland during the chaotic "Baltic Fleet ice cruise" during the Finnish Civil War. Ships did not represent an ideal combination to Finnish defence needs and were mostly obsolescent. On less inspiring nationalist point, the officers and seamen of the new navy were not that skilled. Due to combination of these causes the new Navy suffered severe operational casualties.

The worst accident suffered by Finnish defence forces in peacetime occurred on 4 October 1925 when old torpedo boat S2 sank outside Pori with total loss of her 53 crew. The accident sparked a public outrage which was exploited by naval and industrial circles. To propagandize the need for a new fleet an organization - Laivastoyhdistys or the
Finnish Navy League - was established. At the same time newly independent Finland was seeing an unpredecented economic boom which was not only healing the wounds of the Civil War but also bringing a level of unseeming prosperity for Finnish population at large. Sales of jazz records and illegal booze boomed and skirts were shortened.

However, the new-found success in the American and South American markets could not be used for Finnish advantage as well as it could have been due to two factors. The first limit was by force of nature. Finnish ports were blockaded by ice during winter months and with present icebreaker strength only Hanko and during most winters, Turku, could be kept open throughout the winter. This was not optimal for Finnish forestry industries as the primary export harbors for forestry were Viipuri (connected via Saimaa canal to Finnish inland lakes) and Kotka. Ports of Oulu and Kemi, situated at the mouth of Oulujoki and Kemijoki respectively, capable of using large inland wood reserves, could not be exploited at all during winter months. The second limiting factor was man-made. Finnish liner companies were small and had difficulties in providing necessary services for export markets. Due to their small size they had also difficulties in being accepted into the cartel system of transoceanic lines, Line Conferences. For example, due to Line Conferences it was impossible for Finnish ships to gain coffee freights from South America to Europe. The dependence upon foreign shipping companies resulted in lost transit time and worse access to the markets. Finnish products were often sold without mention of their Finnish origins, which in practice meant inability to create lasting trade relations.

In addition to interests of forestry industries the interests of Finnish metal industry sector was also to be catered by expansion of Finnish fleet. Finnish shipbuilding had been largely sustained by Russian civilian and military markets. As Russian market had been evaporated and the penetration to new markets was difficult due to post-Great War abundance of merchant shipping the long term prospects for shipbuilding seemed bleak. Orders for state ships as well as state backed merchant shipping might revitalize the industry.

Thus there was widely accepted need not only for a revitalization of Finnish Navy but also for a Finnish Merchant Navy. The Navy League decided to push not only the Navy Law but also Merchant Navy Law in order to gain wider support for the Navy Law. The Navy Law was to provide for a naval force capable of fulfillling naval tasks of the Finnish defence, namely securing the demilitarized Åland isles in case of mobilization, assisting Coastal Artillery in case of landing attempts and securing the Finnish trade routes to Sweden. The Merchant Navy Law was to establish a maritime infrastructure capable of making Finnish maritime trade a year-round affair and to establish state-owned companies capable of conducting Finnish trade under Finnish flag to North and South America. Icebreakers were to operate under Finnish Maritime Adminstration, as was the tradition, while new Merivienti Oy was to be the state owned line company. The two existing steamship liner companies were to be allowed to have a large share in Merivienti Oy which was also not to be allowed to compete with existing companies in lucrative European trade.

In order to ensure steady flow of orders for Finnish shipbuilding industries the basic schedule to be followed was to be ordering Finnish naval ships first - to gain more experience in most modern shipbuilding techniques and to solve the lack of naval ships, then icebreakers necessary to create sustainable foreign trade and finally the merchant liners capable of creating better maritime communications. This schedule was also justified by post-war situation in the international shipping markets. Modern merchants were available fairly cheaply so it would not make sense to build them locally for quite some time.

Both laws were pushed through the Finnish legislature surprisingly easily. The Right-wing Kokoomus (National Coalition) party was dead-set against socialism but in Finnish political tradition state funding for business has never been seen as socialism. For the Navy Law their support was unanimous. The left-wing SDP (Social Democratic Party) was opposed to the Navy Law but supported the Merchant Navy Law due to it's promise for more work for industrial workers. Swedish People's Party (RKP) traditionally supported the interests of merchant marine due to voter interests. The Agrarian Party was primarily in opposition to increase of State Budget but was for improvement in national defense and also for expansion of forestry industry and the possible increase for wood prices, important for small and large landowners alike. The only party in opposition of the arrangement was the Socialist Party of Workers and Smallholders (STP), cover organization for Soviet-backed communists. Increase in national defence was against Soviet interests as was the improvement of Finnish industry as Soviet Union was much dependant upon forestry products produced with slave labour providing Soviet Union with much needed hard
currency.

The STP was, however, and the law was passed in the Finnish Parliament in April 1927 to be enacted from 1928 onwards. In practice the preparatory orders for shipbuilding industries had already taken place and numerous studies had been made by the Finnish Navy, Finnish Maritime Adminstration and Finnish industry associations on the optimal composition for the new fleets.

Ia Technological challenges - Icebreakers

Icebreaker_J%C3%A4%C3%A4karhu.jpg

Icebreaker Jääkarhu arriving in Helsinki for the first time in 1926

In 1927 Finnish icebreaker fleet was based upon six icebreakers with a total power of 23 000 horsepower. The five older ones all were coal-fired, lacking range for continuous operations. The oldest, Murtaja, of 1890 vintage, even lacked a keel propellor. The newest one, Jääkarhu, delivered by Dutch firm of P.Smit&Co in 1926 was the darling of the fleet. With width of 19,3 meters, 9200 horsepower and tilt tanks it was powerful addition to the icebreaker fleet and could single-handedly aid ocean going liners and tankers in and out of Finnish winter ports. The triple-expansion steam engines were oil-fired, providing far greater endurance than with the older generation coal-fired icebreakers. Even though Soviet icebreaker Krasin was even more powerful, Jääkarhu was clearly among the best icebreakers in the world.

However, in some respects the Jääkarhu was already obsolete. Diesel electric propulsion, to be introduced to the Finnish Navy in submarines, in it's capability to direct power easily to til pumps, keel or stern propellors whatever the need and providing for greater endurance and more economical operations was clearly the way of the future. Bubble shroud was also lacking. The Swedes were already considering diesel-electric propulsion for their "Statsisbrytaren II", to be named Ymer.

For the projected needs a need for two separate classes of icebreakers was seen. First would be a 8000 horsepower 4000 tons 14 meters wide vessel to be used to keep sealanes in Gulf of Bothnia open for large enough vessels to operate in transoceanic trade. Projected performance was to be 15kts at open waters and 6-8kts on 50 centimeter ice with maximum capability of 120cm solid ice. The projected names for the class would be Karhu, Otso, Kontio and Mesikämmen, all synonyms for bear, the traditional "King of the Forest" in Finnish folk mythology. The ships were originally scheduled to be delivered between 1933-1934 after yards had fulfilled majority of the Navy orders. Second class would be even more ambitious. Project Sisu was to be a 6000 tons and 10500 horsepower vessel with 19,5 meters width to be used to assist traffic to Kotka, Viipuri and Helsinki to keep the trade routes open for large ocean-going tankers and liners. This ship was to be delivered in 1935.

Inspired due to Civil War and First World War use of icebreakers the new icebreaker classes were to be designed from the outset to be armed if deemed necessary. The armament for both "Karhu" class and "Sisu" was to be four 4"/60 1911 pattern guns and four 40mm Bofors guns and depth charge racks. Projected wartime role for icebreakers in summer season was to be convoy escorts. Additionally, the icebreaker "Karhu" was to be prepared to be used as a tender for Navy's submarines. (like icebreaker Sisu in OTL).


Ib Technological challenges - the Navy


Although the Navy leadership would have preferred coastal monitors armed with 10" guns, (OTL Väinämöinen -class) the support for large naval ships had somewhat waned due to Merchant Navy law which was deemed to produce lucrative large civilian orders for Finnish shipyard industry. Suddenly the order of large ships, construction of which would demand special techniques of not much use in civilian shipbuilding, was not deemed as necessary by the industrial lobby. Icebreakers would be the government-funded "masterpieces" of the Finnish shipbuilding. Smaller ships, on the other hand, would allow government funded work to be spread upon more shipyards.

Thus instead of projected two coastal monitors totalling 7800 tons and complement of 800 men the primary combat element of the new navy was to be eight 1000 ton torpedo boats to be ordered in two installments, first one in 1927 and second one in 1930 to spread replacement schedule and to maximize economic support for the shipbuilding industry. To avoid association with infamous torpedo boat S2 the ships were to be called destroyers despite their diminutive size. One propagandized use for new destroyers was to be their use to enforce the Prohibition due to their fast speed.

The ship design of the first class was heavily influenced by Kockums-built Ehrenskiöld class and featured a large proportion of Swedish industrial components and equipment. The primary specifications were as follows:

Displacement: 1020 tons fully loaded
Length: 92 meters
Width: 9 meters
Draught: 2.6 meters
Speed: 31kts
Propulsion: De Laval oil-fired turbines
Armament: 3x 120mm/46 Bofors M/24C; 2x 40mm/39 Vickers AA-gun; 2x3 533mm TT, 2 depth
charge racks, two depth charge throwers, provisions for 50 mines


Delivery schedule:
Jylhä: 1930
Jyry: 1930
Jymy: 1931
Jyske: 1931


The lack of heavy gun armament provided for some advantage in field of industrial economics. Since the Independence there had been a project of founding a government gun factory which was to produce field and anti-tank artillery pieces to equip the Army. While it would be clearly not economical to produce heavy caliber artillerypieces of coastal monitors domestically the order for main armament of torpedo boats could be directed to the new factory in preparation for Army orders.

HMS_Nordenskj%C3%B6ld.jpg


Finnish destroyer "Jyry" on trials. Due to close relation to Swedish Ehrenskiöld -class the ships of the Jylhä-class was often misrecognized.

In addition the Navy Law provided for order of three minelaying submarines, one midget submarine and four motor torpedo boats which were ordered from British firm of Thornycroft. The submarines were designed by German U-boat experts operating via Dutch cover firm "IvS" and had following features. (as OTL ).

Three submarines of Vetehinen -class:

Vetehinen, delivered in 1930
Vesihiisi, delivered in 1931
Iku-Turso, delivered in 1931


Midget Submarine Saukko. Delivered in 1930.
 
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Jukra, interesting so far. Will Finland be seeing an increase in land-based naval aviation? What are your thoughts on the possible use of armed merchantmen? Both as raiders and as gunboats/auxilary cruisers.

Development of larger caliber guns would be good for both coastal defense and the establishment of fortresses. Plus I like the two Finnish coast defense ships. :)
 
II Reduced naval funding for second batch of destroyers - 1931

The second batch of torpedo boats was ordered in 1931, one year late of schedule due to economic difficulties. Due to reduced funding the four ships ordered were somewhat smaller than Jylhä-class and were named rannikkohävittäjä, or coastal destroyers in order not to use the tainted torpedo boat noun. (as in OTL, doublespeak is part of accepted Finnish defence policy) Due to less than perfect seaworthiness of Jylhä class during trials the hull form of new class sacrificed shallow draught for better seaworthiness.

The four ships - Vasama, Vinha, Viima, Vihuri - had following specifications and were completed between 1934-1936.

Displacement: 800 tons
Length: 75 meters
Beam: 7.8 meters
Draught: 4.15 meters
Propulsion: 12500 shp De Laval oil fired steam turbines
Speed: 32kts

Armament: 3x 105mm/50cal Bofors DP; 1x 40mm/39cal Vickers AA; 1x3 533mm TT; 2 depth charge racks, 2 DC projectors; provisions for 40 mines

HNoMS_Odin_%281939%29.jpg

Vasama in Lappohja during 1937 summer exercises. Note the identification stripe on the smokestack to mark the ship's status as "Red" ship during the exercises.
 
Jukra, interesting so far. Will Finland be seeing an increase in land-based naval aviation? What are your thoughts on the possible use of armed merchantmen? Both as raiders and as gunboats/auxilary cruisers.

The Navy or Air Force budget won't be expanded, so there's no real change from OTL (except some doctrinal ones arising from different equipment of OTL.) On use of armed merchantmen, the cargo liners, when constructed, will be prepared for installation of protective armament like other merchants of the era. But I can tell beforehand that Finnish development of modern merchants and the icebreaker fleet to support truly year round maritime trade (in OTL done only during 1960's) will have rather significant consequences for WW II at large...

Development of larger caliber guns would be good for both coastal defense and the establishment of fortresses. Plus I like the two Finnish coast defense ships. :)

Finnish coastal artillery was well equipped by leftovers of Russian fortification effort between 1905-1918. However, like in OTL, the fortifications and guns will be updated for slightly better performance. There was no large scale need for new heavy guns. The Finnish coastal defense ships may seem to be impressive but were failures due to their very specified role as floating batteries. As a part of a larger fleet comprising of torpedo boats or small destroyers, patrol boats and MTB's they might have been useful but as a stand-alone ships they were a disastrous waste of effort. And as there was no fund for virtually no other ships than the two behemoths (in Finnish scale) there was no opportunity to develop the elements Finnish navy was predicted to use and in fact, used, such as light attack craft, minelayers and minesweepers, escorts etc. The two ships were considered to be almost too expensive to be used and after one of them (Ilmarinen) sank, the other one spent rest of it's life in hiding.
 
You haven't mentioned Petsamo - yet.

Even if the nickel mining didn't make for a railway how about the failure of the League of Nations during the 1930'ies; could that make for the Finns to secure an all year port and not have to rely on trucks during the Winter War?
 
III The establishment and initial operations of Merivienti Oy - 1928-1932

The operations were organized under two business arms - Finnish North American Line (SPAL) and Finnish South American Line (SEAL). For operations of SPAL a hodge podge of ten pre-world war cargo liners was bought to start the initial operations, aimed at operating once in a week service to North America, initially to Boston, New York and Baltimore.

For SEAL there was a need of faster and larger ships and the decision was made to purchase an uniform class of twelve fast liners. These ships were Hog Islanders, constructed en masse to replace the Allied loss of shipping during the First World War for the Emergency Fleet Corporation of US Shipping Board. The ships operated once in two weeks service between Finland, Brazil and Argentine. Hog Islanders were fast and, in Finnish perspective, quite large ships. Although the ships were almost ten year old method of their construction was studied carefully by Finnish firms as the orders for uniform class of ocean liners was expected within some years. Hog Islanders were also expensive to operate as they operated manpower intensive steam turbines which further directed the Finnish marine engine development effort towards use of diesel and diesel-electric propulsion.

alcoa_ranger.jpg

Hog Islander "Finntrader" of SEAL approaching Kotka in April 1929. Hog Islanders were of 5000brt, 8000dwt and had operating speed of 15kts. SEAL ships did not gain their white livery until late 1930's - to promote cleanliness of Diesel propulsion.

The initial operations of Merivienti were unprofitable due to many reasons. The liner operations were started at beginning of the year 1929, just as the Great Depression was about to shake Finnish export markets and the whole international trade system. Ships were purchased just before the international slump for seemingly very high prices. The purchase of expensive and expensive to operate Hog Islanders was especially criticized, but in fact the goodwill gained was important later on when neutralization of Smoot-Hawley Tariffs became essential. Another element was the hostility of liner conferences in which the established lines shut out the new state-funded competitors until 1930 when the solidarity of liner companies evaporated under the pressures of Great Depression. Finally, while Finnish forestry companies had operated the Finnpap export association to promote Finnish forestry products succesfully in United States and Britain since 1918 other Finnish industries did not follow suit very effectively until state funds were allocated to alleviate the issue.

The alleged corruption and seemingly overambitious plans gained political attention especially from the far left and somewhat surprisingly, from the far right. For the far left, as mentioned before, Finnish plans to strengthen export industry were a threat to similar Soviet efforts. Moreover, at principal level, any measure strengthening capitalist Finland was seen as threat to Soviet Union. For the far right, so called Lapua Movement (Lapuan Liike) also criticized the maritime infrastructure program. This was due to implied threat of factories, ports and high technology to agrarian lifestyle the Lapua Movement would have preferred for Finland.

The hostility towards business interests was one of the factors due to which the Lapua Movement gained less popularity in Finnish ruling circles and thus was outplayed from the main political field even before it's total crash after the 1932 coup attempt. The coup attempt was not the beginning of a new era of political instability but rather end of the instability. After threats from both left and right ends of political spectrum had been effectively won, the unpredecented economic boom which ended the Finnish Great Depression earlier than in most countries (just as in OTL) was a powerful antidote to extremist idiocies which were gaining power all over the world. Unfortunately for Finland and other democratic countries the domestic threats for democracy were not the only threats, as was seen during late 1930's.
 
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You haven't mentioned Petsamo - yet.

Even if the nickel mining didn't make for a railway how about the failure of the League of Nations during the 1930'ies; could that make for the Finns to secure an all year port and not have to rely on trucks during the Winter War?

The problem with Petsamo was that it was essentially indefensible without a major ally not only to secure the port from land threats but also to secure sea lines of communication to it. The importance of port was not seen beforehand, after all, neutral and safe Norwegian and Swedish ports were available. During the OTL Winter War the Petsamo was captured by the Soviet on the first day of the war and all supplies arrived over the Bay of Bothnia, hindered by extreme ice conditions.

As for all year port, for peacetime icebreaking is cheaper than to build and operate a heavy duty rail line from Rovaniemi to Petsamo. We'll see if this happens though ITTL during the Second World War.
 
The problem with Petsamo was that it was essentially indefensible without a major ally not only to secure the port from land threats but also to secure sea lines of communication to it. The importance of port was not seen beforehand, after all, neutral and safe Norwegian and Swedish ports were available. During the OTL Winter War the Petsamo was captured by the Soviet on the first day of the war and all supplies arrived over the Bay of Bothnia, hindered by extreme ice conditions.

As for all year port, for peacetime icebreaking is cheaper than to build and operate a heavy duty rail line from Rovaniemi to Petsamo. We'll see if this happens though ITTL during the Second World War.

I know it's hindsight but found this. Its in Danish but you may get the main picture. Its about the time inbetween the wars but I was pondering as you seem to imply that the experiences of the 1930'ies may make the Finnish government think of it.

I remember now we were looking it up in an earlier thread on the Winter War and you're right about the military aspect. :eek:
 
I know it's hindsight but found this. Its in Danish but you may get the main picture. Its about the time inbetween the wars but I was pondering as you seem to imply that the experiences of the 1930'ies may make the Finnish government think of it.

Yes, the role of Petsamo in 1940-1941 was crucial not only for Finland but also for Sweden. Actually I don't know if building of a railroad was studied during that period. I would guess not as it would have required large number of workforce, building equipment and steel which in OTL was used to construct Salpa-line defensive works. The WW II for Finland and Scandinavia will be somewhat different ITTL, so it might not be implausible option at all, given that Russians constructed Murmansk railroad within one year during the First World War.
 
IV Opening up the Bay of Bothnia for winter traffic 1933-1935 - consequences up to the Second World War

The introduction of Karhu-class to open up ports in Bay of Bothnia changed the economic landscape of this remote area which before had to rely on rail traffic with it's expensive operating costs during the long and difficult winters (not helped by the fact that Bay of Bothnia has very low salinity leading to particularly difficult icing problems). With icebreakers capable of keeping the Finnish ports of Tornio, Oulu, Kemi, Oulu, Kokkola, Vaasa and Mäntyluoto open throughout the winter the possibilities to expand particularly the wood-based industries not only in quantity but also in quality. All this further increased the need for more wood which was in abundance in Northern Finland but had been outside the reach of economical transportation until now. The drive for better economics led to introduction of more motorized transportation, which in turn led to expansion of Ford truck factory in Helsinki, utilizing knock-down kits imported from the USA as well as into development and expansion boost for Finnish truck factory SISU.

Together with sealanes opened up by Finnish icebreakers the Swedish Atle and Ymer were able to keep the Swedish port of Luleå open throughout the year. Thus the necessity of shipping iron ore through Narvik during winter disappeared, as most of the Gällivare iron ore mined by LKAB was destined for German markets. Combination of modern Swedish port of Luleå and winter navigation in Bay of Bothnia also opened up a new economic possibility of establishing a steel mill utilizing low transportation costs and projected hydropower development of Oulujoki and Kemijoki rivers. This combination was due to fact that the ships fetching iron ore from Luleå lacked freights to be carried northwards and thus offered possibility of cheap coal transports to Bay of Bothnia. In Luleå itself the modern ore conveyor belts were diminishing loading costs for iron ore, emphasizing transport costs instead of loading and unloading costs. At the same time the international demand for steel was rising and new ground-up construction offered possibility of utilizing the latest technical advances for high efficiency.

Northern Finland was an important voting region for the centrist Agrarian Party which was the party in primary position in the Finnish Cabinet at the time. To create broad support for Finnish steel mill project, and one to be situated in Northern Finland an unholy alliance was created. For Social Democrats the Agrarian Party stressed importance for continuous industrial development, for National Coalition the importance of industrial strength for national defence. For Swedish People's Party the steel mill was to be a demonstration of Nordic co-operation, which it was. In usual Finnish style as private capital was lacking the state provided capital for the venture.

After long and difficult political arm-wrestling it was decided to situate the new steel mill to city of Tornio on Swedish border. The location was to take advantage of short iron ore transport route from Sweden, perhaps even with rail connection later on and capability of using both Finnish and Swedish electrical networks in the future. The construction was started on May 1935 and the first steel was shipped from the mill in August 1938. In addition to producing bulk-grade steel the mill expansion was already being planned to utilize domestic nickel, chromium, copper, zinc and cobolt mines fully to produce high quality special alloys. Chromium, zinc and cobolt were available nearby, copper could be shipped from domestic mines in Outokumpu and nickel mine in Petsamo area was already under development.

As a part for preparation of even larger industrial complex in Tornio area construction of a rail link from Rovaniemi to Petsamo was studied and designed but construction decision was not made before the Second World War due to needs of national defense. For a more powerful attacker a rail line would have meant a good supply route to attack Northern Finland. Thus the construction was deferred until the Finnish Defense Forces would have expanded to be able to defend Northern Finland better in mid 1940's.

6vuotta.gif


An ice chart of the Baltic showing various possibilities for the extent of ice during a ten year period.
 
Just before reading your last installment I was thinking of the effect of opening up Botnia Bay to winter traffic. You just covered it the way I thought off.
Interesting thing is that this will provide interesting butterflies in regard to any campaign in Scandinavia.
If things go off as OTL the W Allies will not TTL concentrate forces in Narvik area and have the Narvik forces deploy into central Norway making the taking of Trondhjem a possibility and make possible the stemming of the German advance from Oslo especially because of lots of AAart. being available with Narvik abandoned. Look up this.

In the way you draw it up Sweden also get a much bigger interest in stemming the Soviet flood when it appears; bigger Swedish involvement in the Winter War? Perhaps a regular brigade to defend the approaches to the Botnian Coast?? And some air units (bombers mainly) to help out too???

Are you pondering a stronger Finnish political position vis-a-vis Germany in regard to Finnish production of quality steel???? Quality rearmament prior to Winter War; more, better and earlier fighter planes to counter the Soviet bombers... I really like this! :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
 
If things go off as OTL the W Allies will not TTL concentrate forces in Narvik area and have the Narvik forces deploy into central Norway making the taking of Trondhjem a possibility and make possible the stemming of the German advance from Oslo especially because of lots of AAart. being available with Narvik abandoned. Look up this.

Thanks for the link, although possible Norwegian campaign will have to wait until Second World War breaks out.

are you pondering a stronger Finnish political position vis-a-vis Germany in regard to Finnish production of quality steel???? Quality rearmament prior to Winter War; more, better and earlier fighter planes to counter the Soviet bombers... I really like this! :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

More industrial production will chiefly mean even more prosperous Finland and bigger industrial mobilization base for Second World War, but no larger defence effort as more tax income will be directed towards things most voters want and which are, after all, significant for everyday life. (schools, hospitals, infrastructure etc.). Other recipient of increased tax returns will be subsidies to farming. However, with more assets and larger industrial base there will be changes to Finnish position during wartime. The changes to Finnish infrastructure will also be very important in case of possible (and likely) Soviet attack.

By the way, I'm trying to keep ASB's out of reach as far as possible, the development of steel industry mostly mirrors what has happened in OTL, although during 1960's. Today two most important Finnish steel works are situated in Raahe and Tornio, with Tornio works being the largest stainless steel producing facility in the world, utilizing the chromium mine nearby. ITTL, the use of nickel from Petsamo will be an additional benefit.
 

Markus

Banned
The four ships - Vasama, Vinha, Viima, Vihuri - had following specifications and were completed between 1934-1936.

Displacement: 800 tons
Length: 75 meters
Beam: 7.8 meters
Draught: 4.15 meters
Propulsion: 12500 shp De Laval oil fired steam turbines
Speed: 32kts

Armament: 3x 105mm/50cal Bofors DP; 1x 40mm/39cal Vickers AA; 1x3 533mm TT; 2 depth charge racks, 2 DC projectors; provisions for 40 mines


What OTL-design are they based on? Raubvogel-class or a french design.


Hog Islanders were also expensive to operate as they operated manpower intensive steam turbines which further directed the Finnish marine engine development effort towards use of diesel and diesel-electric propulsion.

What´s wrong with coal fired engines? Ok, they limit the range, but that´s not an issue for slow merchant ships, not even in the slightly larger Atlantic. ;)


A suggestion about airpower: What about using civilian airliners(Ju-52) for nightly minelaying?
 
Given that the two Finnish coastal battleships weren't very effective one option might be for Helsinki to cancel them and build a squadron or two of destroyers. The industrial base for six or twelve decent destroyers would amount to something and if the design proves effective there are quite a few countries which might purchase some, in turn triggering a further expansion of Finland's economy and navy.

So...when was the decision made to build the coastal battleships and might Finland, as a minor power not carrying the potential baggage of a colonial power, be able to take advantage of any particular developments?
 
but also bringing a level of unseeming prosperity for Finnish population at large. Sales of jazz records and illegal booze boomed and skirts were shortened.
I hadn't realized that the Nordic countries were strong temperance nations and had prohibitions! I thought Prohibition was a North American phenomenon. Always glad to learn new things.

In 1927 Finnish icebreaker fleet was based upon six icebreakers with a total power of 23 000 horsepower. The five older ones all were coal-fired, lacking range for continuous operations. The oldest, Murtaja, of 1890 vintage, even lacked a keel propellor. The newest one, Jääkarhu, delivered by Dutch firm of P.Smit&Co in 1926 was the darling of the fleet. With width of 19,3 meters, 9200 horsepower and tilt tanks it was powerful addition to the icebreaker fleet and could single-handedly aid ocean going liners and tankers in and out of Finnish winter ports. The triple-expansion steam engines were oil-fired, providing far greater endurance than with the older generation coal-fired icebreakers. Even though Soviet icebreaker Krasin was even more powerful, Jääkarhu was clearly among the best icebreakers in the world.

However, in some respects the Jääkarhu was already obsolete. Diesel electric propulsion, to be introduced to the Finnish Navy in submarines, in it's capability to direct power easily to til pumps, keel or stern propellors whatever the need and providing for greater endurance and more economical operations was clearly the way of the future. Bubble shroud was also lacking. The Swedes were already considering diesel-electric propulsion for their "Statsisbrytaren II", to be named Ymer.

For the projected needs a need for two separate classes of icebreakers was seen. First would be a 8000 horsepower 4000 tons 14 meters wide vessel to be used to keep sealanes in Gulf of Bothnia open for large enough vessels to operate in transoceanic trade. Projected performance was to be 15kts at open waters and 6-8kts on 50 centimeter ice with maximum capability of 120cm solid ice. The projected names for the class would be Karhu, Otso, Kontio and Mesikämmen, all synonyms for bear, the traditional "King of the Forest" in Finnish folk mythology. The ships were originally scheduled to be delivered between 1933-1934 after yards had fulfilled majority of the Navy orders. Second class would be even more ambitious. Project Sisu was to be a 6000 tons and 10500 horsepower vessel with 19,5 meters width to be used to assist traffic to Kotka, Viipuri and Helsinki to keep the trade routes open for large ocean-going tankers and liners. This ship was to be delivered in 1935.

Inspired due to Civil War and First World War use of icebreakers the new icebreaker classes were to be designed from the outset to be armed if deemed necessary. The armament for both "Karhu" class and "Sisu" was to be four 4"/60 1911 pattern guns and four 40mm Bofors guns and depth charge racks. Projected wartime role for icebreakers in summer season was to be convoy escorts. Additionally, the icebreaker "Karhu" was to be prepared to be used as a tender for Navy's submarines. (like icebreaker Sisu in OTL).
1) 1.2m solid ice is quite a bit for that era's icebreakers, no? I know the big modern icebreakers can do a lot more, but they tend to use gas turbines (or nukes for the Russians).

2) I was surprised to see them slated for a summer convoy escort role, as icebreakers apparently have horrible sea-handling, the hulls being shaped for icebreaking, not sea-travel. OTOH, in WWII, the corvettes used in the North Atlantic were... not fun to ride in in a storm. Also, you may be planning on them being escorts in the Baltic only, which is less nasty than the North Atlantic.

3) Why so many synonyms for 'bear'? Are some of them epithets (like the Russian Medved = honey ?hunter?)?

4) it's not in the bit I quoted, I don't think, but your merchant ships should be called 'freighters', as 'liner' is almost always a passenger ship. Yes, I know they were run by 'X Line' (for many values of X), but English usage is odd sometimes.


HMS_Nordenskj%C3%B6ld.jpg


Finnish destroyer "Jyry" on trials. Due to close relation to Swedish Ehrenskiöld -class the ships of the Jylhä-class was often misrecognized.
i.e. it is one:) (right? makes it easier to find AH pictures that way:))



Keep up the good work!
 
Thanks for the link, although possible Norwegian campaign will have to wait until Second World War breaks out.

Quite - but my point was to that is the major part of Swedish ore is shuttled through the Baltic instead of the Norwegian coast the Allies may take another approach to the Norwegian campaign when it happens; (and surely not untill war breaks out!) and may make the major effort in the Trondhjem area instead of Narvik if it doesn't have the OTL significance.

More industrial production will chiefly mean even more prosperous Finland and bigger industrial mobilization base for Second World War, but no larger defence effort as more tax income will be directed towards things most voters want and which are, after all, significant for everyday life. (schools, hospitals, infrastructure etc.). Other recipient of increased tax returns will be subsidies to farming. However, with more assets and larger industrial base there will be changes to Finnish position during wartime. The changes to Finnish infrastructure will also be very important in case of possible (and likely) Soviet attack.

By the way, I'm trying to keep ASB's out of reach as far as possible, the development of steel industry mostly mirrors what has happened in OTL, although during 1960's. Today two most important Finnish steel works are situated in Raahe and Tornio, with Tornio works being the largest stainless steel producing facility in the world, utilizing the chromium mine nearby. ITTL, the use of nickel from Petsamo will be an additional benefit.

So a more Nordic welfare oriented approach?

I didn't mean to introduce ASBs but rather that if Sweden should show itself unwilling to German policies Finland might be in as to its increased industrial base and quality steel manufacture. Which of course would make a change to politics, etc.
 
What OTL-design are they based on? Raubvogel-class or a french design.

Norwegian Sleipner-class has the honour of presenting specifications and pictures and the Swedish Mode-class can serve as a stunt actor as well...

What´s wrong with coal fired engines? Ok, they limit the range, but that´s not an issue for slow merchant ships, not even in the slightly larger Atlantic. ;)

Coal-firing has large operating costs (due to more engine crew) and even small amount of coal takes a lots of useful cargo space. As Finland has neither oil or coal it doesn't even make sense to have state subsidies for either.;)

A suggestion about airpower: What about using civilian airliners(Ju-52) for nightly minelaying?

The few Ju-52's were reserved for important commercial flights, so there's no scope for real dual use. Aerial minelaying, however, is a good option for a minor power to conduct offensive in the Baltic.

So...when was the decision made to build the coastal battleships and might Finland, as a minor power not carrying the potential baggage of a colonial power, be able to take advantage of any particular developments?

The decision to build coastal battleships was made during mid-20's partly in assumption that the two ships would serve as a core of larger fleet in which torpedo boats / light destroyers would participate. As for possible export, I don't know if there's much takers. Some South American country perhaps? In OTL, only new Finnish naval ships sold for exports were four Golub-class minesweepers sold to Chile in early 1920's and two R-class patrol boats sold to Ecuador in 1960's. But I don't know if any South American country would be seeking to have ships of destroyer escort / torpedo boat size in 1930's?

1) 1.2m solid ice is quite a bit for that era's icebreakers, no? I know the big modern icebreakers can do a lot more, but they tend to use gas turbines (or nukes for the Russians).

Karhu-class of OTL 1950's had those specifications, so I'd assume with similar amount (or slightly larger) of engine power it should be doable. More money poured to problems of icebreaking should see improved solutions (chiefly, two bow propellors) to be found ahead of OTL schedule due to fact that no major theoretical breakthrougs need to be made.

2) I was surprised to see them slated for a summer convoy escort role, as icebreakers apparently have horrible sea-handling, the hulls being shaped for icebreaking, not sea-travel. OTOH, in WWII, the corvettes used in the North Atlantic were... not fun to ride in in a storm. Also, you may be planning on them being escorts in the Baltic only, which is less nasty than the North Atlantic.

Just in the Baltic, where weather conditions are usually much more favorable. In addition, during winter time the icebreakers should be (as in OTL were) escorts as well.

3) Why so many synonyms for 'bear'? Are some of them epithets (like the Russian Medved = honey ?hunter?)?

Mesikämmen might be directly transferred as "someone who has honey in his hands". In old Finnish folklore the Bear was the King of the Forest and in very old times it was forbidden to speak of him with his right name ("Karhu") or he might attack, thus the animal had many synonyms.

4) it's not in the bit I quoted, I don't think, but your merchant ships should be called 'freighters', as 'liner' is almost always a passenger ship. Yes, I know they were run by 'X Line' (for many values of X), but English usage is odd sometimes.

AFAIK, cargo liner term is used in specialist literature (for example, a definition here, although by now, as times have changed the term is extinct). But cargo liner is perhaps a better word?

i.e. it is one:)

Since my Photoshop-skills are abysmal...yes...:D
 
Quite - but my point was to that is the major part of Swedish ore is shuttled through the Baltic instead of the Norwegian coast the Allies may take another approach to the Norwegian campaign when it happens; (and surely not untill war breaks out!) and may make the major effort in the Trondhjem area instead of Narvik if it doesn't have the OTL significance.

Yes, I agree on that, it would be entirely sensible as the strategic importance of Narvik is much less than OTL.

So a more Nordic welfare oriented approach?

Yes, as in OTL but with more money available.

I didn't mean to introduce ASBs but rather that if Sweden should show itself unwilling to German policies Finland might be in as to its increased industrial base and quality steel manufacture. Which of course would make a change to politics, etc.

German role in TTL's Winter War will be more active than OTL due to Germany having much more economic interest in Finland than OTL. Still, even with slightly better economic position of Finland I think Adolf is willing to give the Ugric Finns (not Aryans until the "honorary Aryan" status during Finnish alliance with Nazi Germany) to Stalin's tender care in Molotov-Ribbentrop negotiations.
 
Mesikämmen might be directly transferred as "someone who has honey in his hands". In old Finnish folklore the Bear was the King of the Forest and in very old times it was forbidden to speak of him with his right name ("Karhu") or he might attack, thus the animal had many synonyms.
Ah! That makes SO much sense, I've seen stuff like that happen in other languages/cultures. Thank you.

AFAIK, cargo liner term is used in specialist literature (for example, a definition here, although by now, as times have changed the term is extinct). But cargo liner is perhaps a better word?
Hmmm... OK. But it is interesting to note that the articles at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_vessel and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_ship neither one mention 'cargo liner'.

'Cargo liner' would at least distinguish it from 'liner' = 'ocean liner' = 'passenger liner'.

I'd say 'freighter' or 'cargo ship' or something like that. 'Merchantman'?
 
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