Help with Surviving Vinland Ideas

I am actually rather interested in perhaps writing a story, or several short pieces set in a world where Viking Culture survives in North America, with first a surviving Colonization of New England/Newfoundland, to a later fairly powerful Empire.

Requirements-
Viking Paganism Survives to the current day
They could be briefly conquered, but I'd rather they didnt
A Last Battle of Viking Culture in Europe

Anyway, right now Im trying to figure out a vague POD that works for both realism, and would provide some nice Battle Sagas for the End of the Vikings in Europe, and the survival of them in America. I was perhaps wondering if something involving Haarkon the Great surviving longer and Norway holding on for much longer?

So Suggestions. Also, some good sources about Viking Culture would be helpful.

If anyone is curious btw, my final result is for Vinland to be a Constitutional Monarchy with Mercentilist Tendencies, and with a history of renting out Mercenary Armies.

Some nitpicks:

*The closest that one can get to any colonization of North America by Norsemen is going to be Atlantic Canada (Gísli Sigurðsson once wrote that if you reconstructed the voyages mentioned in the Greenlanders' Saga, which is the more historically accurate one, it would actually show Vínland as being around the area of modern-day New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, with "Markland" extending from southern Labrador to the Island of Newfoundland), maybe some adjacent areas of Labrador as well. Apart from a single Norse penny in Maine that was found in a stash among Native Americans, there is absolutely no way that Norsemen are going to settle *New England.
*How are you going to get people interested in Vínland and prevent them from going further east? When I asked the question of a surviving Vínland, the biggest question was in terms of population. Having one small settlement in the north of the Island of Newfoundland is not enough - you basically need "waves" of people coming over to the area. And what will the local Aboriginal/First Nations groups react? You're going to need to keep the local Aboriginal/First Nations groups on good terms with the *Vinlanders. Of course, I'm working on an idea to make Vínland a Christian nation, but I won't divulge my POD since that would be requiring a spoiler warning.
*No matter what population source you choose, you're most likely going to get some Christians in the mix and, thus, it will be possible that Christianity is going to be, if not the predominant religion, than certainly a significant one over time with a disproportionate amount of influence (the Ragnarök is most likely a Christian interpolation of the Last Judgment into Norse paganism). Plus, there is most likely going to be some Aboriginal/First Nations influence on the culture and language that can't be overlooked - for example, Innu-aimun has a process of nasal assimilation of vowels which, if any Innu tried to speak Norse, the Common Scandinavian/Old (West) Norse nasal vowels are going to be preserved instead of, as in other Scandinavian languages, being denasalized and reduced to a simple length distinction with stress.

Just helping you out a bit, from one who's already working on a surviving Vinland idea (including an entire conlang - yes, I do over-think a lot).

One of the Min Problems with Leif's Vinland was the People who first encountered the Skalings.

Leif and his Father Eric, for all there Bad Boy reputations, where Merchants [with a carefree attitude about their merchandises prior ownership] and got their rep in Bar room Brawls.
Most of the Men with them where Farmers trying to pick up a little extra cash in a trading expedition.

A surviving Vinland need to discover something valuable enuff to have some one with Soldiers being willing to send troops to protect the settlement.

The easiest way to do this is have Leif and Friends land in Maine/Nova Scotia, and discover the Skalings with Gold Jewelry.

DuQuense said:

A surviving Vinland need to discover something valuable enuff to have some one with Soldiers being willing to send troops to protect the settlement.

The easiest way to do this is have Leif and Friends land in Maine/Nova Scotia, and discover the Skalings with Gold Jewelry.

Click to expand...

Which would push them into somewhere in the Caribbean, which is bordering on ASB. The only saga that goes towards that length is Erik the Red's Saga, and it's pretty much trying to get Þorfinn Karlsefni canonized as a saint - hence using a lot of artistic license.

All interesting ideas. Could we just use perhaps a bit of Handwavium to get Lief Erikkson blown off course and land in Maine or something?
Would that help.
I dont know mind if Christianity is important, I just want Temples to Oden still being common. The ferocity of Norse Paganism can be toned down certainly.

Alternate Idea, though of course this is floating around certainly into the realm of not even really likely, could we have somehow circumstance ensure that a different explorer finds Vinland, and a longer lived Pagan Norway, eventually ending in full Christianization of Norway, while a distinctly Viking Culture lives on in America, forgotten for a few hundred years....

Agentdark said:

All interesting ideas. Could we just use perhaps a bit of Handwavium to get Lief Erikkson blown off course and land in Maine or something?
Would that help.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily - it would take a bit more than handwavium.
Alternatively, you could plausibly have someone land on the Island of Newfoundland and call it "Hvítramannaland", the fabled land that is supposed to be near Vínland - I'm using that idea, which I think would be neat (particularly to get a major Christian presence in Vínland).

Agentdark said:

I dont know mind if Christianity is important, I just want Temples to Oden still being common. The ferocity of Norse Paganism can be toned down certainly.

Click to expand...

Hmm, how about some syncretism involved between Norse paganism, Aboriginal/Native American religion, and Christianity? That would be an interesting sight to see.

Agentdark said:

Alternate Idea, though of course this is floating around certainly into the realm of not even really likely, could we have somehow circumstance ensure that a different explorer finds Vinland, and a longer lived Pagan Norway, eventually ending in full Christianization of Norway, while a distinctly Viking Culture lives on in America, forgotten for a few hundred years....

Click to expand...

That could also certainly happen - the trouble is population. You need to bulk up the European presence or have the Norsemen constantly boinking the Native women or both.

Not necessarily - it would take a bit more than handwavium.
Alternatively, you could plausibly have someone land on the Island of Newfoundland and call it "Hvítramannaland", the fabled land that is supposed to be near Vínland - I'm using that idea, which I think would be neat (particularly to get a major Christian presence in Vínland)

Click to expand...

Easily doable, I can certianly go with that, then Newfoundland is used as a Springboard for Colonization of North America

Hmm, how about some syncretism involved between Norse paganism, Aboriginal/Native American religion, and Christianity? That would be an interesting sight to see.

Click to expand...

I would agree, provided the three religions were still loyal to Vinland. Though perhaps Native American Religions are folded into Norse Paganism?

That could also certainly happen - the trouble is population. You need to bulk up the European presence or have the Norsemen constantly boinking the Native women or both.

Click to expand...

Both. I was thinking that Vinland is being constantly, but slightly secretly colonized by Vikings for a solid 200 years or so before Norway falls apart. Also gives time for Vinland to have a concept of Gunpowder

Why would Vinland be pagan, though? Greenland and Iceland were both Christian.

Maybe not the thread to ask, but I'm planning something vaguely like this myself. What I need though, is information regarding the Amerind populations of the area and points south (New York through Labrador to cast a wide enough net). This thread is proving useful.

I dont know if this would help but these Viking if real are kind of Badass and super Pagan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jomsvikings

and you could easily have their leader Styrbjorn the Strong survive his failed attempt at taking the Swedish Throne and flee Jomburg from the HRE and Sweden by going West

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrbjörn_the_Strong

Have the early viking explorers accidentally discover the Grand Banks Fisheries. When word reaches the homeland, that should encourage further exploration and settlement.

Faeelin said:

Why would Vinland be pagan, though? Greenland and Iceland were both Christian.

Click to expand...

the process was ongoing during the famed Eriksson voyages... Christianity had just barely gotten to Greenland when Leif and crew went sailing for Vinland... still, by this time, Iceland was overwhelmingly Christian, and if our theoretical Vinland settlers come mostly from there, they will be Christian...

Which is why I was going to start the process earlier, 900 AD or so aught to do it?

Markland was reported as having vast forests, an item of great appeal in both Greenland and Iceland, both areas severely lacking in useful wood for shipbuilding and other uses.

The astounding size of the Grand Banks fisheries might be what is needed to make life more secure in Greenland, both in terms of food and in terms of a trade good easy enough and inexpensive enough to acquire that commerce begins to boom. After a few years naturally a small group from Greenland sets up a tiny outpost, both to trade with the natives(furs?) and to provide a base and very modest set of services/goods for the fishing fleet.

Naturally a few begin to bring their families along, the climate even in New England or the Maritime Provinces being superior to Greenland's while others fall for a native girl...

Which would push them into somewhere in the Caribbean, which is bordering on ASB.

Click to expand...

Huh what does the Caribbean have to do with this.
OTL Maine /NS is a minor Gold producer, [Unless the newest discoveries bear out what the predictions (Major Field) are]
The POD here would be Maine Skalings making Gold Jewelry, from river Gold.

In order to get a pagan Vinland how about having it or maybe even Iceland if you go early enough be refuges of pagans from the Christianization of Scandanavia. I've read of many vikings late in the viking era moving about to get away from both the new Scandanavian monarchies and the Christianity that came with them.

Agentdark said:

I am actually rather interested in perhaps writing a story, or several short pieces set in a world where Viking Culture survives in North America, with first a surviving Colonization of New England/Newfoundland, to a later fairly powerful Empire.

Requirements-
Viking Paganism Survives to the current day
They could be briefly conquered, but I'd rather they didnt
A Last Battle of Viking Culture in Europe

Anyway, right now Im trying to figure out a vague POD that works for both realism, and would provide some nice Battle Sagas for the End of the Vikings in Europe, and the survival of them in America. I was perhaps wondering if something involving Haarkon the Great surviving longer and Norway holding on for much longer?

So Suggestions. Also, some good sources about Viking Culture would be helpful.

If anyone is curious btw, my final result is for Vinland to be a Constitutional Monarchy with Mercentilist Tendencies, and with a history of renting out Mercenary Armies.

Click to expand...

The biggest problem are to make Nordic Paganism survive, Leif Ericson whom was the founder of the Vinland colony was the first Christian convert in Greenland, and that happened before Vinlands founding.
The other problem are that Viking aren't are term for a culture but one for a proffesion (mechant-pirate) and in reality the settlers in Vinland didn't really fall into that category. Norse culture survived fine and developed into several distinct cultures.

But there's a way, according to Icelandic legends King Harald (Bluetooth) Gormson, the first Christian king of Denmark planned a invasion of Iceland to revenge a insult, but he choosed against it. So let imagine he decide to invade Iceland and centralise it under royal control and force babtist the Icelandic, we could see a large scale exodus of Icelandic families whom didn't wish to convert or be under a centralised rule. So we see a large scale exodus (Iceland likely had around 30 000-40 000 people by this time, so maybe 5 000-6 000) to the west, Greenland are the first stop, but it can't really feed more than 4 000, and some ships has been lost in the route and discovered the land beyond Greenland and later returned to Greenland with tales of the new land, so several minor families seek out this new land of wine and honey, and make several settlements on Newfoundland, while some of them fails thanks to the new climate and the natives, several survives and serves as base for more immigration from Greenland and Iceland. Most of immigrants has been completely alienated from Christianity by Harald conquest, and has a strong pagan identity. Over the next few centuries the settlers expand, the coast down to Georgia are settled fast and so are the great lakes, while the Caribbian are taken over by Metzits with Norse culture, while Norse settlers create a mix culture with the great plains nomadic tribe, which become a serious raiding problem for both the Norse settlers nd the Mezoamerican civilisations, through they and the Caribbian Norse end up often serving the different states in the area as mercenaries. The more "pure" Norse in easten North America, never unifies into one empire but several states, city states and tribes spring up, most of them based on primitive republicanism, through some of them end up monarchies. A contiued contact with Europe ensure that many new technological and agricultural development are tranfered to Vinland (and some like potatoes, mais and beans back), but by European standards the Vinland states are backward and undeveloped (through not disasterous so), heavy cavalry never become in use, stone fortress are rare and gun powder are only adopted late (by the 17th century thanks to the opening of the southen route to Vinland by the Iberians (through we never see our timelines massive conquest, thanks to more advanced civilisation).

Valdemar,

I like your scenario.

Dave Howery said:

the process was ongoing during the famed Eriksson voyages... Christianity had just barely gotten to Greenland when Leif and crew went sailing for Vinland... still, by this time, Iceland was overwhelmingly Christian, and if our theoretical Vinland settlers come mostly from there, they will be Christian...

Click to expand...

Leif was Christian. Erik was not.

Leif proposed that Erik should lead colonization of Vinland. Erik agreed but then a bad omen appeared against it, so he did not.

Suppose that the outcome is Erik and a large bunch of the remaining pagans of Greenland settle Vinland and succeed.

Vinland... Newfoundland is slightly bigger than Iceland and Ireland. Slightly colder in winter, rather warmer in summer. Forests grow back rather better than they do in Iceland and Greenland.

I see no reason why the Norse lifestyle of farming, herding and fishing should not work, with rather more reliable farming than in Iceland. Eventual sustainable Middle Age population of Newfoundland alone should exceed that of Iceland.

The Skraelings, yes, are problem. But since they are pure hunter-gatherers, a small territory seized by colonists would piss off only the small band whose territory is taken over. The rest... would not unite all to regain a small piece of poor hunting grounds and can be compensated through trades.

In Northern Norway, the Norse settled in the coastal areas, traded with and oppressed the Lapp hunter-gatherers - but did not exterminate them.

stone fortress are rare and

Click to expand...

Up to the 14~1500's in NE Germany and around the eastern Baltic [Sweden/Finland] Not settlements had wooden Castles.
If you see a picture of them, you see where Hollywood got it's forts for NW Territory Movies.

?Wonder how long it would take for the Iroquois & Huron Skalings to adopt Log Cabins and Forts.?