The Film "Taken" Actually Happened

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by dummnutzer

Ah, compulsory education, the apogee of human rights abuses. Torture and murder are mere secondary problems, as long as one can protect one´s kids from the evils that is called ´Science´.

I remember some of the teachers of some kinds who were removed from their home-schooling parents talking about how good students the kids were and how polite they were.

Doesn't seem like the parents were doing a bad job.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Nikephoros

Can you please detail said persecution?

Here're some articles. Rather biased in favor of the home-schoolers, but it describes the situation. There are some other articles included too, including the Knoxville one that is from the AP and doesn't have the ideological thing that the first three articles do.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/139

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1330

http://www.hslda.org/hs/internationa...ny/default.asp

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/ma...meschool-kids/

For the record, I think that a lot of the self-proclaimed "Christian home-schoolers" are tools (I find a lot of their theology abhorrent), but I don't think they need to have the Iron Fist deployed on them.

Remember, a state that has the authority to go after "Christian home-schoolers" can go after the left-wing ones too if someone else ends up in charge.

(Yes, there are left-wing home-schoolers.)

[Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

I remember some of the teachers of some kinds who were removed from their home-schooling parents talking about how good students the kids were and how polite they were.

Doesn't seem like the parents were doing a bad job.

I was home schooled since 14. Why? The schools here are crap. (I live in a rural portion of Tennessee. You can only imagine). Homeschooling isn't for everyone, and I do not actively support the idea, because again, it takes a very different sort of individual for it to work properly. You actually have to, you know, want to learn. I'm obsessive, it works for me because of that. I am, however, entirely opposed to faith-based or "natural" homeschooling, I. E. parents just teaching their children what they know, with no real structure or curriculum.

And get off that utter nonsense that Germany persecutes homeschoolers. That's complete, utter tripe. There is no right in Germany for parents to home school their children, and it is, in fact, against the law.

[Nikephoros]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

And get off that utter nonsense that Germany persecutes homeschoolers.

Agreed. By his tone, you'd think Germany was rounding up homeschoolers and shipping them off somewhere. THAT's persecution.

Geez Merry, you're starting to sound like a parody.

[Berra]

Not having seen the movie, could he claim self defence or something getting out of legal problems that way?

Otherwise, it remind me of the CIA case in Italy. A bunch of CIA ops convicted for kidnapping in Italian court. Not much happened...

[Alratan]

Thinking about it, how would the French know they were dealing with a rogue US agent. I'd expect they'd work on the basis that he was just a particularly pschotic hit man one of the Albanians' rivals had hired. Based on this, they'd issue an international arrest warrent and give Interpol the forensics they need to identify him before this is even recognised.

What with the amount of cameras there are in Paris, he'd have been caught on them, and they'd also have access to the biometrics stored on his US passport. With a little (well, a lot), they could probably track him back to the private jet he arrived on, at which point the ex-wife's new husband will be in a lot of trouble, as they'll let their colleagues in the FBI know that he's a suspect in a major organised crime investigation. This is the first point at which the CIA will realistically become involved, due to the nature of beaurocracies they might not even realise they have a problem. At this point this guy's face is going to be on most wanted lists the world over as a mass murderer, and it's too public to cover up easily. If he's unlucky one of his neighbours going to recognise him, and the local police will send in a SWAT team briefed on how ludicrously dangerous he is, who will err on the side of shooting first, before the CIA has got its act together to stop them.

[Hendryk]

Originally Posted by Markus

Gitmo isn´t a stereotype it is reality.

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

The German government's persecution of home-schoolers is also a reality.

Are you seriously equating the egregious human rights abuses that have been taking place at Guantanamo with compulsory school attendance? Why, yes, you are

Libertarianism according to MerryPrankster: a government that locks up prisoners in an illegal detention camp is almost as bad as one that--the horror!--forces kids to go to school.

[CalBear]

The French police have a very deeply vested interest in making this go away. A trial would expose a rather seamy bit of France to public view, scare the holy snot out of potential tourists world-wide, put some extreme corruption in very high places on display, and generally make France look like a Third World country in the media (never mind that most of the criminal activity shown in the movie is unfortunately common throughout the 1st world). The U.S. has similar, if different reasons to make it go away.

Imagine what the tabloids of the WORLD would do with this sort of story (for my fellow U.S. board members: If you think the NY Post or National Enquirer are scurrilous, you haven't even SEEN real scandal rags compared to what gets churned out in the UK, France and the rest of Western Europe.). This whole thing never happened (although, if some of the darkest rumors about the French secret service are true, the French official and his spouse seem likely to have a tragic auto accident in their immediate future).

Originally Posted by Alratan

Thinking about it, how would the French know they were dealing with a rogue US agent. I'd expect they'd work on the basis that he was just a particularly pschotic hit man one of the Albanians' rivals had hired. Based on this, they'd issue an international arrest warrent and give Interpol the forensics they need to identify him before this is even recognised.

What with the amount of cameras there are in Paris, he'd have been caught on them, and they'd also have access to the biometrics stored on his US passport. With a little (well, a lot), they could probably track him back to the private jet he arrived on, at which point the ex-wife's new husband will be in a lot of trouble, as they'll let their colleagues in the FBI know that he's a suspect in a major organised crime investigation. This is the first point at which the CIA will realistically become involved, due to the nature of beaurocracies they might not even realise they have a problem. At this point this guy's face is going to be on most wanted lists the world over as a mass murderer, and it's too public to cover up easily. If he's unlucky one of his neighbours going to recognise him, and the local police will send in a SWAT team briefed on how ludicrously dangerous he is, who will err on the side of shooting first, before the CIA has got its act together to stop them.

[Alratan]

TheTYne thing is, the French police won't know any of the background at first, or possibly for a long time. All they know is that they have piles of dead bodies on their hands, and possibly France's largest mass murderer on the loose. They won't jump straight to ludicrous plots involving the enslavement of pretty American girls, they'll assume this is a straight up organised crime vendetta which got out of hand.

This actually happened recently in Germany, with far fewer casualties, and it was all over the European news and lead to a massive manhunt/investigation.

The same will happen, it won't be buried as the French won't realise they need to. Instead they'll be looking to send a pointed message that the gangs should get back in their box and not make such a mess

[benjamin]

@Alratan - Jean-Claude, a French intel officer and contact, knows it if Bryan Mills, ex-CIA the whole time. This goes immediately up the chain of command and a tail is put on Mills to keep an eye on him. He losses them and chaos ensues.

I'm guessing that since the French intel knew full well who he was dealing with and had assistance from his home agency (either DGSE or perhaps DCRI/DST) the investigation of said killings would immediately fall under their jurisdiction. That being said they could easily mis-direct the investigation and misinform the media.

Benjamin

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

Are you seriously equating the egregious human rights abuses that have been taking place at Guantanamo with compulsory school attendance? Why, yes, you are

Libertarianism according to MerryPrankster: a government that locks up prisoners in an illegal detention camp is almost as bad as one that--the horror!--forces kids to go to school.

Social Democracy according to Hendryk: It is perfectly all right to unleash the hounds on home-schooling parents if their ideas are insufficiently progressive. Hendryk is the sole determinant of whether their ideas are progressive or not.

Instead of a Hendryklone, we shall have the Hendryking.

Did you even see my comment about the purpose of the state? And how the kids were being educated? It's not like the kids were working in carpet factories instead of going to school, which would have been a better ground for complaint.

[Alratan]

Originally Posted by benjamin

@Alratan - Jean-Claude, a French intel officer and contact, knows it if Bryan Mills, ex-CIA the whole time. This goes immediately up the chain of command and a tail is put on Mills to keep an eye on him. He losses them and chaos ensues.

What can they do to cover up the bodies? More importantly, how long are they before going to wait before admitting to their bosses that this is their screw up?

Originally Posted by benjamin

I'm guessing that since the French intel knew full well who he was dealing with and had assistance from his home agency (either DGSE or perhaps DCRI/DST) the investigation of said killings would immediately fall under their jurisdiction. That being said they could easily mis-direct the investigation and misinform the media.

Nearly impossible, I think. it's too big and too many people need to be suborned - big investigations like this invariably leak to the press

The other thing is, for domestic political reasons, there are several parts of the French state that would have no qualms with the fact that Albanian criminals do this sort of thing becoming public. It's not unknown in North America, and certain elements of the Western European political-media establishment have been busy whipping up a moral panic about people trafficking/sex slavery anyway, so it would fit beautifully into the narrative anyway.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

And get off that utter nonsense that Germany persecutes homeschoolers. That's complete, utter tripe. There is no right in Germany for parents to home school their children, and it is, in fact, against the law.

I could argue there is a right in Germany--or anywhere--but the German government simply doesn't respect it.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

I was home schooled since 14. Why? The schools here are crap. (I live in a rural portion of Tennessee. You can only imagine). Homeschooling isn't for everyone, and I do not actively support the idea, because again, it takes a very different sort of individual for it to work properly. You actually have to, you know, want to learn. I'm obsessive, it works for me because of that. I am, however, entirely opposed to faith-based or "natural" homeschooling, I. E. parents just teaching their children what they know, with no real structure or curriculum.

I actually agree with you in a large measure.

I personally wouldn't home-school any of my future kids unless there was no other option--they'd likely end up being masters of the liberal arts and science up until a certain point, but weak in mathematics. And mathematics happen to be VERY IMPORTANT.

Of course, if I did decide to do that, I wouldn't half-ass it. Curricula, the proper books, lots of things like soccer leagues to make up for not being in class with other kids, etc.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Nikephoros

Agreed. By his tone, you'd think Germany was rounding up homeschoolers and shipping them off somewhere. THAT's persecution.

Geez Merry, you're starting to sound like a parody.

"Persecution" doesn't necessarily have to be Holocaust- or gulag-level.

If you want people who misuse the phrase "persecution," it's certain American Christians who think they're being persecuted because they're no longer the culturally-dominant force they used to be rather than anything that's actually being done to them.

(Think the line in "Lest Darkness Fall" where an orthodox Christian in Gothic Italy thinks he's being persecuted because he has to peacefully coexist with people he disagrees with.)

[MerryPrankster]

In the event this does become public and there are calls to extradite Mills to France to face charges for what happened, I am imagining a country song written about his exploits to fund his legal defense team.

"The Ballad of Bryan Mills," perhaps. If I lived in TTL, I'd write it, except I don't know how to write music (the tones, bars, etc--I can rhyme words well enough).

Done badly, it could offend a lot of people--Albanians, Arabs, and the French. Perhaps there's an official version that isn't so obnoxious (pointing out that these characters did not represent their nationalities) and a lot of unofficial versions that are.

Perhaps Mills could make a fair bit of $$ selling the movie rights. I could imagine Lifetime Original Movies about it (it's about women being abused, after all) and an official, big-budget thing.

[Hendryk]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Social Democracy according to Hendryk: It is perfectly all right to unleash the hounds on home-schooling parents if their ideas are insufficiently progressive.

"Persecute", "unleash the hounds"... if you use such hyperbolic vocabulary for a government that does its job of making sure that children get a proper education, what terminology is there left for a government that sets up illegal detention camps and tortures political prisoners? Not that you seem to mind all that much, considering how few times you've even mentioned it at all.

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Hendryk is the sole determinant of whether their ideas are progressive or not.

Instead of a Hendryklone, we shall have the Hendryking.

You should know by now that such crude attempts to get a rise out of me don't work.

[Magniac]

I haven't seen this movie, and I'm not going to stoop to debating its merits as AH, but I have heard Neeson interviewed on the radio about the role, and he sounded less than enthusiastic about the whole thing. He was openly dismissive.

He said the character was basically an accountant who kills people. I think he uttered at least one "fer chrissakes" in response to a question about the depth of his motivation for the portrayal.

Paycheck movie=/=much less pride for Liam than Daniel Craig experiences when promoting the latest Bond.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

"Persecute", "unleash the hounds"... if you use such hyperbolic vocabulary for a government that does its job of making sure that children get a proper education, what terminology is there left for a government that sets up illegal detention camps and tortures political prisoners? Not that you seem to mind all that much, considering how few times you've even mentioned it at all.

Damn it, did you see the comment about how the German teachers LIKED those kids?

If they weren't getting a proper education, I'd imagine they'd be obnoxious little hellions, I would think, instead of being described as well-behaved and good students.

You'd have a much better case for using language like "making sure the children got a proper education" if the home-schooling in question was a cover for making the kids work in a carpet factory or something like that.

And calling the Gitmo detainees "political prisoners" is stupid. Aung Suu Kee (sp?) is a political prisoner, as were the people detained in the Iranian election protests. Khalid Sheikh Muhammad is not a political prisoner.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

You should know by now that such crude attempts to get a rise out of me don't work.

Neither will insinuating I'm not "really" Libertarian.

Funny, you have no problem claiming it is possible to define what a Libertarian is, but you yourself have claimed it is impossible to define what a true Christian is.