Peter the Great KIA

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

WI Peter the Great had died in 1711 while fighting the Turks at the Battle of Stanilesti?

[DjBaraca]

Originally Posted by Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy

WI Peter the Great had died in 1711 while fighting the Turks at the Battle of Stanilesti?

I think it would have been a Swedish victory. But it depends who takes over, because he had no heir during this time other than the incredibly weak Alexei. So it might even be possible for a Russian civil war. But we would for sure see a strong Sweden and Ottoman Empire as a result.

[Atreus]

Sweden wins the Great Northern War pretty much by default. Russia is going to have some dynastic problems, although perhaps not to the level of the time of troubles. I suppose the main questions are what effect does this have on the war of spanish succession, and for how long can sweden maintain primacy on the baltic?

[I Blame Communism]

I question whether Sweden can "win" "by default" and regain the status of a "strong" country. By 1711, they had lost Estonia, Latvia, and the Karelian isthmus, not to mention the cream of their army. Even if there was a real civil war in Russia, which I don't think is the only possible outcome, Sweden is going to have to regain a lot with a little. I don't see them recapturing Ingria any time soon, and Charles XII had already rejected an offer to get everything back except the valley of the Neva. Poltava might have changed his mind, but given his personality I'd want a source on that.

[I Blame Communism]

Glancing at Wilson's biography, Peter had given instructions to the senate as to steps to be taken in the event of his death. The Senate was to take over the country and choose his successor from among itself. This would probably mean Menshikov taking over, as happened in 1725, and he wasn't popular, but he did control the army. Alexis would very likely make a nuisance of himself, but he doesn't have an army, and the Swedes were also in a bad way and tied up in the western Baltic.

Troops to seriously harm Russia would have to be Ottoman. Politics in Constantinople are of the utmost importance, and things can be very counter-intuitive. It seems the Vizier let Peter off pretty lightly partly because he didn't relish would Ahmed might do to him is he came back as a war hero with a blooded army, the darling of the war party who the Slatn didn't always get on with. The Turks actually declared war again a couple of times but didn't do anything: that was how much their politics fluctuated.

If the Turks are willing to impose the same terms on Russia as OTL, more or less (and really, not that many Turkish interests were at stake and they had bigger fish to fry, as indeed did Russia: both sides were simply somewhat transfixed by Azov), Sweden isn't going to "win" anything. The Ottoman Empire can't do anything about the fleet which is already building on Lake Ladoga, and the army in Finland was next to no offensive capability. Where's Sweden is going to get the troops to retake Viborg, to say nothing of Riga, Tallinn, or St.Petersburg?

And looking at his attitudes after the battle, I think a reverse for Russia would only have vindicated Charles' pig-headed refusal to give anything away in order to save the rest.

[Rubicon]

Originally Posted by I Blame Communism

Where's Sweden is going to get the troops to retake Viborg, to say nothing of Riga, Tallinn, or St.Petersburg?

Sweden already had the troops, they foolishly though sent them to Northern Germany where a Swedish army under General Stenbock won a battle at Gadebusch only to later be encircled and surrounded inside the fortress at Tönning in Holstein where it surrendered.

Had that army been sent to Finland instead of Northern Germany there might have been a reverse in fortunes in that theatre.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Rubicon

Sweden already had the troops, they foolishly though sent them to Northern Germany where a Swedish army under General Stenbock won a battle at Gadebusch only to later be encircled and surrounded inside the fortress at Tönning in Holstein where it surrendered.

Had that army been sent to Finland instead of Northern Germany there might have been a reverse in fortunes in that theatre.

I know, but that fact was it was in Germany. The PoD is Peter getting killed, not some shake-up of the Swedish high command. And it wasn't like the Swedes could ignore the west altogether, anyway.