A World Without Martel (WWM)

[steven24gordon]

“A victorious line of march had been prolonged above a thousand miles from the rock of Gibraltar to the banks of the Loire; the repetition of an equal space would have carried the Saracens to the confines of Poland and the Highlands of Scotland; the Rhine is not more impassable than the Nile or Euphrates, and the Arabian fleet might have sailed without a naval combat into the mouth of the Thames. Perhaps the interpretation of the Koran would now be taught in the schools of Oxford, and her pulpits might demonstrate to a circumcised people the sanctity and truth of the revelation of Muhammed.”

Edward Gibbon’s The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

For the last few weeks I have been consumed by an inner conflict: on the one hand I am attempted to continue my World Without Mohammed (WWM) series (located at : http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=127937&highlight=World+Mohammed). However, finding inspiration both on this website and in my historical readings, I feel compelled to start a new thread aptly named the World Without Martel (WWM), an ATL in which Charles Martel never grows to full adulthood and changes the political landscape of Early Medieval Europe. I look forward to your comments and suggestions for this new ATL, all thoughts welcome.

[steven24gordon]

How the Charles “The Hammer” (Carolus Martellus) got his name: In 676, his father Pepin the Heristal, Mayor of the Palace and the most powerful man in Merovingian Empire of the Franks, received a messenger concerning the recent childbirth of his mistress, Alpaida. Not wishing to raise the ire of Plectrude (Pepin’s wife), the message carried to the Mayor was simple: “it is a carl (‘man’)”. And since a simple answer demands a simple reply, Pepin retorted: “Then let him be called that". However, Dark Ages Europe is a dangerous place and “Carl” dies soon after his birth to one of the numerous diseases of the period. His name would not be a feature of the sparse history of the time and the story of his naming would be forgotten in the blood and chaos of the brutal 7th century.

The 7th century was one of change and the rise of a new faith, sweeping out of the deserts of Arabia, under the banner of the Prophet. After uniting the tribes of the Arabian Peninsula, Islam reached out its hand to the world. And that hand proved almost unstoppable: Egypt, the Holy Land, North Africa, and Spain (Al-Andalus) soon fell before the Hosts of Islam. In those heady days it is even said that the capital of the Roman Empire shall one day be ruled by a Caliph. But Pepin of Heristal was spared the spectre of Islam for he died in December 714.
His death left his position and his powers to Theudoald his grandson (at the urging of Plectrude). In the circumstances it was an unpopular move: Theudoald was only a child and the Frankish kingdoms of Neustria and Burgundy were united in opposition to the continuing domination of the Arnulfing family over the Empire. Anticipating the troubles ahead, Plectrude made her base at Cologne (Austrasia) and prepared for the inevitable civil war. She did not have long to wait: in 715 the Neustrian nobles (along with the Merovingian king) named Ragenfrid maior domus and declared war on Plectrude. Under this new strong leadership the Austrasians, vulnerable and outnumbered, were defeated near Cologne and Ragenfrid took the city in a bloody siege. In the aftermath Plectrude surrendered, Theudoald was sent into exile and the power of the Arnulfing was banished to the dustbin of history.

Although gaining the mantle of leadership, Ragenfrid found his power not as great as in decades past: not only were the German duchies to the east of the Rhine independent in all but name but Aquitania remained outside his authority while the Frisians and the Saxons had broken their former bonds of subservience. In the circumstances, Ragenfrid did what he could, warring with the Saxons and his former ally Radbod (King of the Frisians) to recapture the important trade routes on the Rhine to the North Sea. But these wars were distracted by conflicts closer to home, the Austrasians revolted when Chilperic II died in 720 and Ragenfrid had appointed Theuderic king without their consent (proclaiming Theudoald –returned from exile -maior domus). Their rebellion was supported by Odo “the Great” Duke of Aquitaine, who invaded Neustria looting and burning her towns and fields.

However, while fighting in Neustria Odo received surprising news: As-Shãm, the governor of Al-Andalus, had invaded his kingdom and looted Toulouse. Returning to repulse the attack, his war-weary army is defeated near the Garonne. This was a blessing for Ragenfrid who, free from the interventions of Odo, is able to crush the Austrasian rebellion (cutting off Theudoald’s head and parading it through the city of Metz). Afterwards, in retribution for his interference, the vengeful Frank crossed into Aquitania and defeated Odo near Bordeaux in 724, capturing his treasury and forcing the Duke to swear fidelity. Odo signs a treaty with Ragenfrid, recognising his suzerainty in exchange for his support against the Umayyads. But re-occupied with events in the north, the maior domus ignored the provisions of this treaty and the Islamic raiding parties continued to freely cross the Garonne to raid into Burgundy, Provence and Aquitaine. In the last years of As-Shãm governorship, Islamic control spread from Nîmes (captured 724) to encompass a large swathe of the Gallic Mediterranean coast.

But Ragenfrid was more concerned with events to the East than with the Umayyads. While he had been defending his position at home, the German duchies were drifting even further from the centre of Frankish power, declaring their own independence. In Bavaria the Agilofling Dukes, in an alliance with Liutprand the Lombard, had become virtual “kings” in their own right and in Alamannia, the Duke Lantfrid had grown so bold in his independence that he was even issuing his own law-code (Lex Alamannorum Lanfridus). While Ragenfrid is fighting to secure his authority in Germania, Odo (in the absence of Frankish aid) is forced to conspire with discontent Berber troops and treaty with Muslim governors. But this careful diplomacy is proved futile when in 730 the new governor of Al-Andalus ‘Anbas invaded Aquitaine with the purpose of sacking Tours (and punishing Odo for conniving with malcontent Berber rebels). Odo gathered his forces but his army was massacred as the Muslims crossed the river Garonne. Sending word to Ragenfrid requesting his aid, Odo retreated to Neustria followed by ‘Anbas’s army who burned and looted churches as they marched.

Ragenfrid at a gathering a meeting of his nobles announced (or at least according to the Spurius the Caralisian, 11th century historian, announced): “Like the swelling tide of the sea, the hordes of Islam have poured over our lands; and now through the Franks, a voice had spoken: “Hitherto shalt thou come and no further, and here shall thy proud waves be stayed.” Subsequently, provisioned with arms and men, Ragenfrid and Odo marched against the approaching ‘Anbas, the fate of Francia hanging in the balance...

[steven24gordon]

Like the Swelling Tide of the Sea...

“Al Aqitiniyah was then under the rule of the Franks, a tribe of barbarians like the many others who overran the provinces of the Roman Empire in its decline...They were quite as corrupt and immoral as the Roman nobles who had preceded them, and their style of Christianity did not lead them to endeavour to improve the condition of their subjects. The serfs were in an even more pitiable state than before. The land was still in the hands of a few, and the large estates were indifferently cultivated by crowds of miserable slaves, whose dreary lives were brightened by no hope of improvement or dream of release before death... The rich were sunk in the same slough of sensuality that had proved the ruin of the Romans, and the vices of the Christian Franks rivalled, if they did not exceed, the polished wickedness of the pagans. Such was the condition of the Al Aqitiniyah when the Muslims approached her borders...
...On the other side of Garonne were the soldiers of Islam, all hardy warriors, fired with the fervour of a new faith, bred to arms from their childhood, simple and rude in life, and eager to plunder the rich lands of the infidels. Between two such peoples there could be no doubt as to the issue of the fight...”

- Spurius the Caralisian, 11th century historian and author of The Conquest of the West

“...our armies sacked Beaune, exacted tribute from Sens, and made numerous raids upon the neighbouring districts. At our approach Avignon was abandoned and we made her people subject of the vast empire of the Arab Khalifs, who held their court at Damascus and swayed an empire that stretched from the mountains of India to the shores of the Atlantic.”

-Pelayo, mercenary in the pay of ‘Anbas the governor of Al-Andalus

“Time after time the inhabitants were startled from their sleep, in the midst of the night, by cries of distress raised by the wretched peasants across the river, when the Muslims were setting the sword to their throats.”

-Anonymous monk of Toulouse

[Basileus Giorgios]

Interesting stuff! I always enjoy your TL's and their setting; I'm eagerly anticipating the next update.

[steven24gordon]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Interesting stuff! I always enjoy your TL's and their setting; I'm eagerly anticipating the next update.

Thanks for the support

[Ridwan Asher]

I'm seconding the support, though I also want to do some nitpick.

Why not "Al Aqitiniyah" ? I guess it makes more sense as the Arabic adaptation of Aquitaine, isn't it ?

[steven24gordon]

Well, I have never been good at maps but here we are ...any thoughts?

[steven24gordon]

Originally Posted by Ridwan Asher

I'm seconding the support, though I also want to do some nitpick.

Why not "Al Aqitiniyah" ? I guess it makes more sense as the Arabic adaptation of Aquitaine, isn't it ?

Al Aqitiniyah? Instead of Al-Aquitane? An excellent suggestion, consider the change made.

[FDW]

I like, and because of that I just subscribed to this thread.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by steven24gordon

Well, I have never been good at maps but here we are ...any thoughts?

Seems realistic enough, through maybe a little on the careful side if they have entered Aquitaine, my guess are that they would have conquered both the entire south and most of the coast reducing Aquitaine to Limousin.

[steven24gordon]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

Seems realistic enough, through maybe a little on the careful side if they have entered Aquitaine, my guess are that they would have conquered both the entire south and most of the coast reducing Aquitaine to Limousin.

My feeling here is that the Arabs would only have administrative control over the areas indicated, although they would be able to claim a much larger area. But your point is a fair one.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by steven24gordon

My feeling here is that the Arabs would only have administrative control over the areas indicated, although they would be able to claim a much larger area. But your point is a fair one.

You should remember that adminstrative control mean in a feudal society, either invade and replace ther local strongmen, or forced them to pay tribute and swear fealthy to you. The area I described are mostly the area I expect the local nobles to swear fealthy to Andalus, not a area they directly control. While I expect modern regions Limousin and Auvergne to be subjugated in the next few decades. My guess are that they rule through local Frankish and Gallo-Romance nobles, whom slowly* will convert to Islam. Of course that mean that likely we see few name changes in place names plus the Arabic loan words** will be heavy romantified (so I find something more like Al-Aquitaine more likely than Al Aqitiniyah)

*Through not in historical term, I expect that most of them will be Muslim in 3 or 4 generations.

**Likely it will receive a quite significant amount through more like Latin loan words in German, than French loan words in English.

[steven24gordon]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

You should remember that adminstrative control mean in a feudal society, either invade and replace ther local strongmen, or forced them to pay tribute and swear fealthy to you. The area I described are mostly the area I expect the local nobles to swear fealthy to Andalus, not a area they directly control. While I expect modern regions Limousin and Auvergne to be subjugated in the next few decades. My guess are that they rule through local Frankish and Gallo-Romance nobles, whom slowly* will convert to Islam. Of course that mean that likely we see few name changes in place names plus the Arabic loan words** will be heavy romantified (so I find something more like Al-Aquitaine more likely than Al Aqitiniyah)

*Through not in historical term, I expect that most of them will be Muslim in 3 or 4 generations.

**Likely it will receive a quite significant amount through more like Latin loan words in German, than French loan words in English.

About Al Aqitiniyah vs. Al-Aquitaine question: my initial gut feeling was to go with the Romanic rather than the Arabic but I could be persuade either way. As your reasoning is the very logical I will, at the moment, stay with the Romanic but I would not be adverse to any naming suggestions.

In terms of Limousin and Auvergne being conquered in the next few decades? I think we can see southern France bow before the Islamic yoke sooner than that. Remember Islamic expansionism is still at its height and effective Frankish government (represented by the Duke of Aquitania) is taking a beating. I expect Aquitaine, Septimania, parts of the Rhône valley, Provence and Gascoigne to be (more or less) conquered by 737 before Berber revolts and Frankish/Lombardi resistance bring this period of Islamic European expansionism to a halt. On the other hand, I could be wrong, any thoughts?

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by steven24gordon

About Al Aqitiniyah vs. Al-Aquitaine question: my initial gut feeling was to go with the Romanic rather than the Arabic but I could be persuade either way. As your reasoning is the very logical I will, at the moment, stay with the Romanic but I would not be adverse to any naming suggestions.

In terms of Limousin and Auvergne being conquered in the next few decades? I think we can see southern France bow before the Islamic yoke sooner than that. Remember Islamic expansionism is still at its height and effective Frankish government (represented by the Duke of Aquitania) is taking a beating. I expect Aquitaine, Septimania, parts of the Rhône valley, Provence and Gascoigne to be (more or less) conquered by 737 before Berber revolts and Frankish/Lombardi resistance bring this period of Islamic European expansionism to a halt. On the other hand, I could be wrong, any thoughts?

I mostly agree, through if they conquer some of Rhone valley I expect it all to fall, through we likely see small Christian fiefdom survive in the low densisity hills and mauntain, in the long term I imaghine something like Ottoman Bosnia, Muslim living in the cities and lowland, while Christians clans/tribes/cantons live in the lower population density highland. At the same time we likely see a greater Swiss German/Alemanni expansion in the Alps down in the east of the Rhone Valley*. Beside that I expect a growing centralisation of Lombard rather than OTL decentralisation, with a existential threat in the south and west, likely we see Papal state end up part of Lombard.

I doesn't expect Neustria to fall but it will be victim of both warfare and raiding**, moving the centre of Frankia to the Rhine Valley, and making resulting a quite low population Neustria (by OTL standards), likely we see it become militarised marches.

I don't see Alamannia survive independent from Frankia in the long run, likely it split between a north directly under Frankish control and a Alpish south de jure under Frankish control, de facto independent cantons.

Bavaria, Thuringia, Frisia and Saxony easily stay free of the Franks, through Thuringia if it doesn't expanded fast will likely end up subjugated by the Saxons. Both Saxony and Bavaria will likely begin a drive to the east through Denmark threatens Saxony existents, and we likely see Denmark and Saxony fight over dominance of Wendia/Wendland. While Bavaria will likely end up thrown out of the lowland Pannonia if the Magyars turn up.

*We saw something like it in OTL, but I expect them to be even more succesful and agressive, without a central government keeping them in place and with the Lombard supporting them to gain a buffer against Islamic expantion, of course that's going to work both way, it will also serve as a buffer against Lombard agression.

**Likely the Franks and Muslims will exist in a permanent state of "war", as a excuse for slave raiding

[steven24gordon]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

I mostly agree, through if they conquer some of Rhone valley I expect it all to fall, through we likely see small Christian fiefdom survive in the low densisity hills and mauntain, in the long term I imaghine something like Ottoman Bosnia, Muslim living in the cities and lowland, while Christians clans/tribes/cantons live in the lower population density highland. At the same time we likely see a greater Swiss German/Alemanni expansion in the Alps down in the east of the Rhone Valley*. Beside that I expect a growing centralisation of Lombard rather than OTL decentralisation, with a existential threat in the south and west, likely we see Papal state end up part of Lombard.

I doesn't expect Neustria to fall but it will be victim of both warfare and raiding**, moving the centre of Frankia to the Rhine Valley, and making resulting a quite low population Neustria (by OTL standards), likely we see it become militarised marches.

I don't see Alamannia survive independent from Frankia in the long run, likely it split between a north directly under Frankish control and a Alpish south de jure under Frankish control, de facto independent cantons.

Bavaria, Thuringia, Frisia and Saxony easily stay free of the Franks, through Thuringia if it doesn't expanded fast will likely end up subjugated by the Saxons. Both Saxony and Bavaria will likely begin a drive to the east through Denmark threatens Saxony existents, and we likely see Denmark and Saxony fight over dominance of Wendia/Wendland. While Bavaria will likely end up thrown out of the lowland Pannonia if the Magyars turn up.

*We saw something like it in OTL, but I expect them to be even more succesful and agressive, without a central government keeping them in place and with the Lombard supporting them to gain a buffer against Islamic expantion, of course that's going to work both way, it will also serve as a buffer against Lombard agression.

**Likely the Franks and Muslims will exist in a permanent state of "war", as a excuse for slave raiding

Interesting and useful comments. I myself see the Neustrian "March" holding against the Islamic charge (nice thought about slave trading by the way). And the formation of small Christian mountain strongholds (happened in Islamic Spain sortof), a very insightful note. However I think the Bavarians may be pulled west rather than east: with Francia beset my internal rivalries and a vengeful Islamic nieghbour there would be a western power vacuum. Also the Avars will still be around in the ATL, and could discourage a Bavarian push east. I could see Bavaria being drawn into conflicts in Swabia and the Rhineland. On the other hand, I could be wrong here. So without the Frankish Empire of OTL, who is the big Christian power of Western Europe. Still the Franks? Multi-Polar World?

A thought about religion, if the Lombards conquer the Papal States would this not cause a religious divide in Christendom. Just a quick thought but: Pope embraces Iconoclasm to gain Byzantine aid against Lombards while the Lombards elect their own Pope (whom none of the other Christian bishops would recognise as he is obviously a puppet figure). Plausible?

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by steven24gordon

Interesting and useful comments. I myself see the Neustrian "March" holding against the Islamic charge (nice thought about slave trading by the way). And the formation of small Christian mountain strongholds (happened in Islamic Spain sortof), a very insightful note. However I think the Bavarians may be pulled west rather than east: with Francia beset my internal rivalries and a vengeful Islamic nieghbour there would be a western power vacuum. Also the Avars will still be around in the ATL, and could discourage a Bavarian push east. I could see Bavaria being drawn into conflicts in Swabia and the Rhineland. On the other hand, I could be wrong here. So without the Frankish Empire of OTL, who is the big Christian power of Western Europe. Still the Franks? Multi-Polar World?

A thought about religion, if the Lombards conquer the Papal States would this not cause a religious divide in Christendom. Just a quick thought but: Pope embraces Iconoclasm to gain Byzantine aid against Lombards while the Lombards elect their own Pope (whom none of the other Christian bishops would recognise as he is obviously a puppet figure). Plausible?

I think the Bavarian would push east simply because the Avars was the easiest enemy, they had low population, they had lost any technological superiority they have had, so they would be the Bavarians primary goal, while even a split among the Franks are only last for a short while, before it reunifies, so there's only a short term oppotunity in the west.

I think the greatest Christian power would be split between Lombards and Franks, with a growing centralised Lombard they're going to be quite strong, while the Franks have the position through pure numbers (my best guess are that Frankia have have around 15 million inhabitants) Of course both powers will likely not expanded because they focus their might on the Muslim invaders. Military Frankia will likely evolve into a standard European army, based on feudalism, likely with a heavy cavalry and infantry. While the Lombard will likely adopt the Byzantine military model.

To Christianity yes we likely see no split in it, the Pope are reduced to be the Patriach of the Lombards in union with rest of the Othodox Church (which it likely won't be named), while the other Germanic states get their own Patriachs, the Pope are of course still seen as very important, more so than the Patriachs of Aarchen or Beograd, but he loses most of his political weight, and the position are reduced to a spiritual position, while the clerical bureaucracy are commanded by the secular powers, much as in the east.

[Valdemar II]

I have created a fast and very crude map of my idea. The map is shit mostly because the propotion doesn't fit and the rivers are semi random placed.

But I think you can get my idea.

Darkish green are faceless Islamic hordes

Blue gray are a mass of minor state/canton/clans.

While other colours are mostly unified states/tribes.

[steven24gordon]

As we consider the ATL Battle of Tours in 730 (fought between Ragenfrid and ‘Anbas) we would find it useful to compare it with the OTL Battle of Tours in 732 (fought between Charles Martel and Abdul Rahman). In OTL Martel revolutionised the traditional Frankish army by augmenting the usual levies with a core of professional soldiers (a fulltime army with the training necessary to conduct complex military manoeuvres and withstand an Islamic cavalry charge). But revolutions cost money, money which the Frankish monarchy did not have, so Martel seized church land and property (which naturally enraged the Church and Charles was almost excommunicated). In ATL not only is Ragenfrid not the visionary that ‘the Hammer’ was but he does not have the political capital or will to attempt a change of the Frankish army’s composition. Moreover while Abdul Rahman’s OTL assault was a raid (although that is debatable), this ATL invasion is intended as preparation for bringing Aquitania to heel and securing the path for the occupation of southern Gaul. Indeed, by this point ‘Anbas has all but conquered Aquitaine, destroying even the semblance of Frankish government and establishing a military governor in Avignon.
Given the advantages possessed by the Muslims ATL, the outcome of the battle seems a foregone conclusion: although the heavy infantry of the Franks are formidable, they wavered under ‘Anbas’ heavy cavalry charge and when Ragenfrid is killed the Franks abandon themselves to a route that leaves much of their army massacred. Tours is sacked by the victorious Muslims and on their return thorough Aquitania, ‘Anbas garrisons the city of Bordeaux as a Muslim stronghold.

In all Ragenfrid had not been a bad ‘Mayor of the Palace’. Indeed before his death in 730, he was at the high point of his career: through great blood and toil he had restored Frisia to Frankish sovereignty, elicited at least nominal suzerainty over the German duchies of the East and reduced the powerful Duke of Aquitania. But the foundations of his lordship were built on shallow ground and upon his death in battle, the superstructure began to splinter: a charismatic Frisian warlord emerged in the north and drove out his Frankish oppressors (along with their Christian missionaries); the Dukes of Alamannia and Bavaria re-asserted their independence; the Burgundian nobility elected Chilperic III (son of the late Chilperic II) their king in a direct challenge to Ragenfrid designated successor Childebrand. As civil strife consumed the centre, the Franks focused their dwindling energy on maintaining their flagging authority in the north, leaving the door open to Islamic penetration in southern Gaul.

But while the extension of Islamic power into Aquitania and Provence was relatively free of overt Frankish interference, this does not mean that the Arabs don’t face opposition: Odo’s sons Hunald and Hatto organise (with Frankish backing) Aquitaine resistance against the Muslims while Liutprand (King of the Lombards) makes a spirited attempt to defend and re-conquer parts of Provence (for which he is rewarded by the Pope). However in 733 Abdul Rahman replaces ‘Anbas as governor of Al-Andalus, and Islam regained the offensive: naval offensives lead to the occupation of much of Provence driving the Lombardi back; Islamic raids reach far into Burgundy burning the cities of the Rhône; and most fatefully Hunald betrays Hatto for the Umayyad cause (marrying a daughter of Abdul Rahman and accepting the military governorship of Poitiers). By 737, Abdul Rahman had established control over Aquitaine, Septimania, parts of the Rhône valley, Provence and Gascoigne, dividing these lands between the Arab and Berber occupied towns (mostly along the coast and the major rivers), and local ducal allies.

But then the great tide of Islamic conquest begins to run out of steam: a large army destined for an invasion of Burgundy is diverted to deal with a Berber rebellion in North Africa. Shortly afterwards, Abdul Rahman was replaced as governor and operations in Gaul were scaled back as gathering Berber revolts threaten to shatter Umayyad control of the West. The Berbers in Spain, North Africa and Gaul, were angered over their second class status within the Caliphate (which directly contradicted the tenets of equality within the Koran and the teachings of the Prophet). As the 730s become the 740s, conflicts between the Berbers and the Arabs become conflicts between Iberian settled Arabs and Syrian junds (Arab military units which the governor attempts to settle in Iberia and Gaul after crushing the Berber rebellions). But these wars are part of a much wider clash within the Umayyad Caliphate, as rivalries between the dominant Syrian army factions weaken the authority of Damascus and allow the Abbasids (in league with the old Persian nobility, the mawallads, and the Khurasân soldiery) to usurp the throne of power.

But it is not only the Islamic Empire where of the great foundations of loyalty and fidelity are in influx: in distant China the remarkable T’ang dynasty is collapsing, in India chaos and division run roughshod over the achievement of the Gupta Golden Age, and in Greece the once great Byzantium suffers the tyranny of religious oppression and doctrinal conflict. The future as they say is uncertain...

[frozenpredator]

interesting timeline.

a question though: with the expulsion of the christian missionaries, do we see the Frisians maintaining their original religion (germanic/norse religion with heavy celtic influence) or have a slower conversion?

[steven24gordon]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

I think the Bavarian would push east simply because the Avars was the easiest enemy, they had low population, they had lost any technological superiority they have had, so they would be the Bavarians primary goal, while even a split among the Franks are only last for a short while, before it reunifies, so there's only a short term oppotunity in the west.

I think the greatest Christian power would be split between Lombards and Franks, with a growing centralised Lombard they're going to be quite strong, while the Franks have the position through pure numbers (my best guess are that Frankia have have around 15 million inhabitants) Of course both powers will likely not expanded because they focus their might on the Muslim invaders. Military Frankia will likely evolve into a standard European army, based on feudalism, likely with a heavy cavalry and infantry. While the Lombard will likely adopt the Byzantine military model.

To Christianity yes we likely see no split in it, the Pope are reduced to be the Patriach of the Lombards in union with rest of the Othodox Church (which it likely won't be named), while the other Germanic states get their own Patriachs, the Pope are of course still seen as very important, more so than the Patriachs of Aarchen or Beograd, but he loses most of his political weight, and the position are reduced to a spiritual position, while the clerical bureaucracy are commanded by the secular powers, much as in the east.

As always I welcome your comments and agree with many of them: you have convinced me in terms of the Bavarians who would push east against the Avars and we are going to see the other Germanic states getting sucked into the intellectual and cultural orbit of the Orthodox Church and Byzantium (with any German King of note seeking to emulate the Byzantine Emperors). Military and administratively the Franks, once they stabilizes, will probably centre on Austrasia at “Aachen” (or the equivalent thereof) near the MeuseRiver. Neustria and what is left of Burgundy will be “military marches” (although Burgundy will probably be more influenced by Islam than Neustria) and I think Swabia may be contested ground between Bavaria and this new Francia. In terms of Thurgingia I think the Bavarians may claim Regensburg and position it as stronghold against the pagan Czechs. Frisia remains independent of Francia but heavily influenced by them. Saxony will, as you say, prove resistant to Frankish conquest but I don’t see them pushing east and overwhelming the Wends (who, as pagans go, were hard-as-nails and very difficult to conquer OTL). I think sandwiched between Francia and the Wends, Saxony may get conquered by the Danes at some point, any thoughts?

But the question of Italia still concerns me. I have my doubts about a lack of a split within Christendom at least during the period currently under discussion. At the moment, Iconoclasm is the imperial doctrine in Byzantium, a doctrine that the bishops of the Western Europe (and Italia especially) oppose. The Lombardi will not join the Orthodox Church as long as Iconoclasm holds sway over it. Now what the Pope will do about his deteriorating situation in Italy is a difficult question: he could become a servant of the Lombards or turn to the Byzantine Emperor for aid (which would mean coming to terms with Iconoclasm). Either option is very pleasing to the Papacy. Any thoughts?