What Would an Islamic Europe Look Like?

[Iori]

Alright, so their are alot of Right-wing reactionaries who go on and on about 'Eurabia' and other such nonsense, however this has made me curious.

Let's say at some point Islam becomes the major/ity religion in Europe and has managed to become the dominant religion for centuries, what would
Europe look like, would the same basic states exist (IE France, England etc.), or would entirely new nations come into being?

Given that Islam has developed differently in different parts of the world, how might European Islam develop, would it become the most 'liberal' version,
similar to how Europe is overall the most liberal Christian region, or would it become conservative or something in between?

Would Islam as we understand it even continue to exist, that is to say might European Islam itself change to such a degree that it's in many ways
a separate religion, similar to how Christians view Mormonism?

[Sachyriel]

I believe it would be a pan-European state [Randimoid Caliphate anyone?], save for parts of Spain that are close to Africa, some of Italy 'round Rome, Britain will be gradually getting there, and the Swedes will be talking about making a Nordic Union with the last few other nations that are kinda too cold for people who make a pilgrimage to the middle of a desert as part of a religious ceremony.

[Mirza Khan]

Well, the only real chance to do really do this is to have the Muslims win at Tours and then take over all of France and Italy (somewhat implausible). The Muslims then convert the pagan population of Europe.

Muslim Europe would probably break up as soon as the Ummayyads were overthrown, and equivalents of OTL languages like French and German would still form (though they'd be highly Arabized, especially in technical, religious, academic, and political vocabulary). As for philosophy & politics, the Golden Age of Islam is just getting underway at this point, and will most likely last longer with Islam in a much more dominant position and no crusades (the shock of them to the Muslim world helped to cause a philosophical retrenchment and close-mindedness that ultimately allowed European science to outpace its Islamic counterpart). Much of OTL Islamic philosophy, law, and theology developed after this POD, so you have tons of leeway-coming up with fictional French Muslim Enlightenment philosophers, Islamicized Anglo-Saxons combining Muslim notions of equality with the more democratic features of Common Law to arrive at some proto-proto-parliamentary system, etc.

Oh, and I wouldn't take the European right-wing silliness about Muslims becoming a demographic majority in Europe to seriously. Its in the nature of the far right to be scared of some Other, preferably with a different skin color and an imagined habit of reproducing faster than them. Its all utter bull.

[XNM]

I always wanted to learn how to speak Islam. It's such a beautiful language.

[Keenir]

Originally Posted by Iori

Let's say at some point Islam becomes the major/ity language in Europe and has managed to become the dominant religion for centuries, what would
Europe look like, would the same basic states exist (IE France, England etc.), or would entirely new nations come into being?

yes.


it all depends on how Islam becomes the dominant religion in Europe.

Given that Islam has developed differently in different parts of the world, how might European Islam develop, would it become the most 'liberal' version,
similar to how Europe is overall the most liberal Christian region,

don't do that - I nearly choked. since when is Europe the most liberal Christian region?

ask the Jews how liberal Europe has been for them.

[Iori]

Originally Posted by Keenir

don't do that - I nearly choked. since when is Europe the most liberal Christian region?

ask the Jews how liberal Europe has been for them.

I meant Modern Europe.
When you compare it to the America's, Christian Africa and Oceania Modern Europe is the most liberal of them.

I should have been clearer on that..

[charl]

Originally Posted by mmmeee0

I believe it would be a pan-European state [Randimoid Caliphate anyone?], save for parts of Spain that are close to Africa, some of Italy 'round Rome, Britain will be gradually getting there, and the Swedes will be talking about making a Nordic Union with the last few other nations that are kinda too cold for people who make a pilgrimage to the middle of a desert as part of a religious ceremony.

I want to point out here that 5-10 percent of the current Swedish population are Muslim. It is the fastest growing religious group, and it wouldn't surprise me if they actually outnumber active Christians (though a majority of people are members of the church around 80% of the population still identify themselves as atheist, agnostic or otherwise irreligious). Sweden is hardly anathema to Islam. In many ways it is more open to that religion than most of Europe.

[Kalan]

It really depends if europe is only islamised or also arabianised. Egypt, and Syria for instance were both, while Perisa retained its own culture. An arabianised Europe would certainly differ from one that has a roman-islamic culture.

[Sachyriel]

Originally Posted by charl

I want to point out here that 5-10 percent of the current Swedish population are Muslim. It is the fastest growing religious group, and it wouldn't surprise me if they actually outnumber active Christians (though a majority of people are members of the church around 80% of the population still identify themselves as atheist, agnostic or otherwise irreligious). Sweden is hardly anathema to Islam. In many ways it is more open to that religion than most of Europe.

But when did Muslims start settling Sweden? Sometime after the Spanish drove them out?

[Emperor Qianlong]

Originally Posted by JK67

Well according to recent polls europe is largely becoming atheist. I live in Iceland and the last truly religious person (who wasn't working in a church!) I knew was my grandmother.

Actually, it's nonsense to say most of Europe is becoming "atheist". When you look up "atheist" in statistics, it's actually a bracket term of agnostics, the religiously apathetic (which probably are the largest faction), religiously people who simply do not want to be part of a religious community, and actual atheists. There's also a large number of people who are nominally Christian which are effectively religiously apathetic (except maybe that they celebrate Christmas). To a somewhat lesser degree this also applies to Muslims living in Western countries (there's a high uncertainty of the number of Muslims living in some countries as a result). So, I think only relatively few people are genuinely atheist.

Still I think that Jesus was a great man, centuries ahead of his time. As an atheist I find it much easier to respect what he said than what Muhammad did.

Actually, I must disagree. Both Judaism and Christianity are in no ways better than Islam when it comes to a history of violence, misogyny and intolerance. It's only that the West has (largely) moved beyond that.

I think thaf if we had some very liberal form of islam, with freedom of religion, advanced human rights etc. then maybe it wouldnt really matter.
If we're talking about europe being really islamic, like Saudi-arabia, then I think it would be horrible, for obvious reasons.

About an AH Islamic Europe, it's very hard to say because we don't know what paths Islam would have taken in an ATL. By the standards of medieval Christian Europe, many Islamic societies were more tolerant and liberal than Christian Europe, but in comparison with modern Europe, they were not. Either way, they were liberal than Saudi or Taliban-style, and given these are a relatively new movement in Islam (which in many respect was a spite reaction to Westernization, although I should add that this doesn't apply to original Saudi Wahabism, because it's considerably older but originally a marginal ideology). I should add that there were previous purist/fundamentalist movements in Islam, such as the Almoravid empire.

[charl]

Originally Posted by mmmeee0

But when did Muslims start settling Sweden? Sometime after the Spanish drove them out?

Late 1980's in large scale. It's all recent immigration. We take in a lot of immigrants for a country of our size. If we didn't our population would start decreasing.

[Sachyriel]

Originally Posted by charl

Late 1980's in large scale. It's all recent immigration. We take in a lot of immigrants for a country of our size. If we didn't our population would start decreasing.

So, of course in the pre-1900s era, Muslim in Sweden were of the 'Allah-Damn-It-We're-Lost' sect of Islam.

[charl]

Originally Posted by mmmeee0

So, of course in the pre-1900s era, Muslim in Sweden were of the 'Allah-Damn-It-We're-Lost' sect of Islam.

Well, sure. But that was not really my point. My point was that just because the winters are cold doesn't mean Muslims won't go there. Indeed the Russian steppes used to be dominated by the Golden Horde and the Sibr Khanate, both being Muslim.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by charl

Well, sure. But that was not really my point. My point was that just because the winters are cold doesn't mean Muslims won't go there. Indeed the Russian steppes used to be dominated by the Golden Horde and the Sibr Khanate, both being Muslim.

Originally Posted by JK67

Dude, everyone knows muslims don't thrive in cold enviroments

The Russians steppes are drier than West Europe, and pigs doesn't thrieve there (at least not to the same extent they does farther west and north), while horses and cattle does. Tghe point isn't that Muslims doesn't tyhrieve in cold enviorement, they don't thrieve in pig country.

[charl]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

The Russians steppes are drier than West Europe, and pigs doesn't thrieve there (at least not to the same extent they does farther west and north), while horses and cattle does. Tghe point isn't that Muslims doesn't tyhrieve in cold enviorement, they don't thrieve in pig country.

But Scandinavia is hardly "pig country." Or at least Sweden isn't. Sure, there are pig farms, but there are many more cows (and indeed dairy is a large part of the Scandinavian diet), and even horses. Actually the climate in general should be much more friendly to animals that can handle cold (sheep, goats, horses...) than pigs who really don't do well in the winter, at least in theory.

[Iori]

All this talk about the cold has made me think of something.

Now, as we know religions change over time, sometimes on a core level, so I wonder if at some point we might see a part of a European Islam
develop that basically ignores the whole Hajj and praying all the time thing, do to distance, temperature and, well praying that often takes
up valuable time.

[Hendryk]

How it becomes Muslim would obviously be a factor. Would it be by conquest, peaceful conversion, other? When it happens would also make a difference; before the 8th century or so Christianity was still thin on the ground in much of Europe and could well have been replaced altogether, while after that date it might look more like the situation in OTL's Ottoman-controlled Europe.

[Emperor Qianlong]

Originally Posted by Iori

All this talk about the cold has made me think of something.

Now, as we know religions change over time, sometimes on a core level, so I wonder if at some point we might see a part of a European Islam
develop that basically ignores the whole Hajj and praying all the time thing, do to distance, temperature and, well praying that often takes
up valuable time.

An Islamic Scandinavia would also probably develop it's own distinct approach regarding fasting during Ramadan. Given how days/nights becoming longer (and beyond the polar circle, perpetual during summer/winter), the purpose of fasting from dawn till dusk becomes in vain. I'm not sure how contemporary Muslims in Sweden deal with it, but AFAIK, I think they basically assume the times of dawn/dusk as if they were in Mecca. The Hajj is not so much of an issue because Muslims are only entitled to do it if possible.

And the statement about "Islam doesn't thrive in pig country" is nonsense, actually. Pork was staple food in the Majapahit Empire (it still is for example in Vietnamese cuisine), and people of the greater Sunda isles changed their diet rapidly when they adopted Islam.

[Iori]

Originally Posted by Emperor Qianlong

The Hajj is not so much of an issue because Muslims are only entitled to do it if possible.

I thought that only meant you don't have to if you're physically incapable of doing so, like if you have a severe physical condition or something.

It does make sense and is much more sane and pragmatic otherwise, though.

Anyways, I still think it'd be interesting if a version of Islam developed that basically ignored it totally or made it official that doing so was a personal decision and Allah would'nt care if you ever went, regardless of if you could or could'nt.

example in Vietnamese cuisine), and people of the greater Sunda isles changed their diet rapidly when they adopted Islam.

They did or did'nt change?

I'm no expert on the historical cuisine and dietary habits of the Sundanesian people's, but I thought their diets stayed more or less the same?

[Emperor Qianlong]

Originally Posted by Iori

I thought that only meant you don't have to if you're physically incapable of doing so, like if you have a severe physical condition or something.

It does make sense and is much more sane and pragmatic otherwise, though.

Anyways, I still think it'd be interesting if a version of Islam developed that basically ignored it totally or made it official that doing so was a personal decision and Allah would'nt care if you ever went, regardless of if you could or could'nt.

You have to consider, in the old times, the Hajj was an extremely arduous and dangerous journey. Think about Mansa Musa's journey from Mali to Mecca.

They did or did'nt change? I'm no expert on the historical cuisine and dietary habits of the Sundanesian people's, but I thought their diets stayed more or less the same?

I meant, conforming to Islamic dietary laws.