The Dagda and the three Saints

[boynamedsue]

Following on from the pagan Ireland thread, here's a teaser for a possible new timeline

The Dagda and the three Saints

Well, during the time Lóegairos maqui Néilli was the big man at Tara, and so in charge of all holy rites and rituals a body would associate with that position, there came a ship to Ireland.


And the ship was as fast a thing as you’d want to see: So fast it was, that it jumped from the top of one wave to the next without hardly getting wet.
And the ship was as big a thing as you’d want to see: So big it was, that the sea monsters and leviathans would leap out of its way, for fear of getting crushed like a dog by a chariot.
And the ship was as rich a thing as you’d want to see: So rich it was, that its hull was made of gold, its ropes were wound from silver wire, and its cess buckets were cut from giant emeralds and rubies.

Sure, it was a wonderful ship altogether! For as well as all this it had no need for sails, it had just three great golden crosses to make it go so awful fast.

As you’re after knowing about this wonderful ship, it’ll not surprise you at all when I tell you that it took it just the time it takes to boil three eggs to come across the sea from Britain. Though to this day, nobody knows if the eggs were boiled one after the other, or all at the same time.

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Well, when this boat landed at Lùghos, three gods got off it, eating their boiled eggs. But mark you now, these were not gods of Ireland, they were gods of the Christians, which are called Saints.

The first of them was called Saint Catroicos, or Patricius to his countrymen. He had the power over snakes.
The second of them was called Saint Jesus. He had the power over water.
The third of them was called Saint Devil. He had the power over fire.

Now, the Saints wanted the Irish to worship them instead of the Tuatha Dea Dananna, so they got to doing all kinds of magic to make everybody forsake their own gods.

Saint Catroicos did three unruly acts, which were: Chasing away the snakes from Ireland, so they could not give advice to our magicians. Stealing the voice of the druid Cartinos, by making shamrocks grow out of his mouth. Tempting noblewomen to wed Saint Jesus, despite him being impotent due to a spear wound.

Saint Jesus did three acts of bribery. He promised free wine to those who worshipped him, and fulfilled his promise by turning his urine into wine. He brought back to life the daughter of the Dovinias after she was sacrificed to Brigita. He walked across Lough Neagh to bring a fish dinner to the Avi Neill.

Saint devil did three acts of temptation and extortion. He offered the world to the Cruithne. He threatened to burn the men of Kil Erani. He offered the throne of Tara to Aillilos Macqui Nathi.

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One day the Dagda sickened of seeing these saints and their impious ways, and so he disguised himself as an old man and went to visit their church at Armagh. They were up the front of the church ranting and cutting bits of their flesh off to feed their hungry flock. The Christians were quite wild for it and were running around in the blood of Saint Jesus and rutting like dogs while they fought over the scraps of their gods’ bodies.


The Dagda stood quietly at the back of the church for a few minutes, disgusted by the ritual. Then Saint Devil noticed him.

‘You at the back,’ Said the great horned man. ‘Why are you not joining in the mass?’

For mass is what the Christians call their festival.

‘Oh, no.’ Said the Dagda. ‘I was just wondering to myself which of you saints was the stupidest and most pathetic. I doubt any one of you could even kill an old man like me.’

The gods began to rage at the old man, but he stilled them with a wave of his hand.

‘Now, I’ve decided. Catroicos, you are the most pathetic.’

Enraged, Catroicus used all his powers to conjure a plague of ten thousand snakes, who crawled towards the Dagda, as the Christians screamed in fear.

‘Devil, you are the next most pathetic.’

Saint Devil shrieked with rage and poured fire towards the Dagda, but there were so many snakes in the way that he was as safe as a swaddled babe. The furious saint used up all his powers, but to no avail, all he’d done was make a bonfire of Catroicos’ snakes.

‘And then it is you Jesus, a little stronger than your daft wee buddies, but an impotent fool nonetheless.’

So Jesus too rose to Dagda’s bait and sent a torrent of water which put out the snakefire nicely.

Dagda laughed and stepped back into his own appearance, a great golden beautiful naked man, and he said to the Christian gods.

‘Now Saints, I’ll show you how you should have done it.’

First he sent water to put out Saint Devil’s fire. Then he sent snakes to kill Saint Jesus’ power in the water. Then he sent fire to burn Catroicos like a snake.

So after this was seen by everyone, all but the stupidest Christians came back to the true religion, and the Saints’ bodies were thrown in a pit in Armagh and forgotten, apart from a hidden stone which bears the mark of a fish, a flame and a snake so the druids can find the place of the three gods’ death.

And that is why even today, children play snake, fire, water to decide who gets the biggest apple or goes first in the game of leaping.

From Book of Bards. Cerca 1250.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

I like the story . Keep it up.

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by Lysandros Aikiedes

I like the story . Keep it up.

Thanks mate, I was going for the Mabibogion as told by Dougal from Father Ted. I think it works quite well.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Will this new reformed Polytheism of Ireland develop into a competitive prostelytizing religion like Christianity, or will it be to Ireland what Shinto is to Japan?

[Mikey]

What are the hand gestures for snake-water-fire?

[Flocculencio]

Fifty points for excellent pastiche, to be sure

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by Mikey

What are the hand gestures for snake-water-fire?

snake is like scissors, but you move your arm after throwing the sign.
Water is flat hand like paper.
Fire is spread fingers, with the thumb erect.

Originally Posted by Floc

Fifty points for excellent pastiche, to be sure

It's not me pastichin guv, it's the bards.

Originally Posted by Lysandros

Will this new reformed Polytheism of Ireland develop into a competitive prostelytizing religion like Christianity, or will it be to Ireland what Shinto is to Japan?

More like Shinto, but it will not be 100% specific to Ireland. It will have a tendency to throw off cults based on its gods, and some of them will travel. The story above was written by a Dagda cultist who probably only worships the Dagda, so (not having a very solid grip of Christian theology) considers himself more monotheistic than the Christians.

[kellineil]

I like it, especially the misrepresentation of Christianity. It's typical of how one religion often describes the beliefs of another

[TheDarkMessiah]

Very good! I hope you do some more BNS. I've been reading up a bit on the Tuatha of late, so this was a pleasant find. Subscribed

[Hendryk]

Nice opening. This will have consequences for the rest of Europe as well.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Originally Posted by boynamedsue

More like Shinto, but it will not be 100% specific to Ireland. It will have a tendency to throw off cults based on its gods, and some of them will travel. The story above was written by a Dagda cultist who probably only worships the Dagda, so (not having a very solid grip of Christian theology) considers himself more monotheistic than the Christians.

Come to think of it, it might help the long-term survival of this religion if there were other countries than Ireland that were practicing it. Otherwise, the Christian kingdoms of the continent, if not from Britain, were to launch crusades if Christian missionary work was to prove a failure.

[Geekhis Khan]

Bloody brilliant, boyo!

Bring us another round, aye?

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by kellineil

I like it, especially the misrepresentation of Christianity. It's typical of how one religion often describes the beliefs of another

What do you mean misrepresentation?

Wait a minute! Maybe that's why they chucked me out of Church on Sunday...

[EvolvedSaurian]

I like it. I'd really like to know more about this religion(s?) is set up and what some of the beliefs are... what it's called, for that matter.

[boynamedsue]

In 399 AD, a warband of 31 Irishmen raided a villa at Banna Venta Berniae, which now lies under the sand dunes of Morecambe bay. Their choice of location for the raid was intelligent: The nearby Roman fort of Medibgo had recently been denuded of its garrison to strengthen the defences at Hadrian’s wall, which had been breached by Picts for three consecutive summers. In addition, the civilian Militia of nearby Galacum(1) would be unlikely to face a savage Irish warband just to defend one villa, so there would be time for the raiders to conduct a thorough search for valuables, and perhaps have a little fun with the local women.

In the confusion of the attack, most of the wealthy Romano-British family managed to escape the raiders. However, Maximus Cereticus Patricius, the 13 year old son of the villa’s owner, Flavius Cereticus Diaconus, was captured and taken as a slave to Lughòs (2) in Ireland, heartland of the emerging power of the Connachta tribe. During his 12 year captivity, Patricius, known to the Irish as Catroicos, served initially in menial tasks but later became a translator and scribe for Niallos Maqui Eochadi, the Chief of the Connachta confederation.

Between 403 and 407, a rebellious general, Flavius Claudius Constantinus, was de facto dictator of Britain south of Hadrian’s wall. Fearing an attack from Stilicho, the Vandal general who maintained the Emperor Honorius on the throne, Constantinus adopted a policy of bribery and alliances with Irish and Pictish leaders, in hope of securing his Western and Northern flanks. This involved protracted negotiations with Niallos, conducted through the Latin speaking translator, Patricius. During these talks, it was agreed that Constantinus would send Niallos nine high ranking hostages to guarantee timely payment of his annual stipend.

When, in 406, the Burgundians, Vandals, Alans and Suebes crossed the Rhine into Gallia, Constantinus saw an opportunity to make himself Emperor of the West. Stripping Britain of all its legions, and trusting that his strategic agreements with the Celtic barbarians would hold, he crossed into Gallia, never to return.

Initially this plan of defence worked, with the civic and tribal militias more than sufficient to deal with the comparatively innocuous Saxon and Frisian raids along the east coast. After Constantinus’ departure, Britain was increasingly governed by a council of Britsh Dux, Magistrati and Praefecti. As these offices were often related to tribal positions, the representative of the Brigantes, Coelius f. Tegmanius, quickly gained preeminence on the council. The Brigantes had a much larger territory and population than the other tribes, so, by 412, Coelius had become effective ruler of Britain from the Clyde and Forth to the Mersey and the Calder.

Not long after Constantinus’ death in 411, British bards bad begun to sing of Brenno’ Coelio’, King Coelius. Coelius did little to dissuade them.

In 412, one of the sons of Niallos was sailing to Lugvalium (3) to enter into diplomatic negotiations with Coelius, when his boat was wrecked by a storm in the Solway firth. The only survivor was Patricius, who survived by clinging to an empty water barrel over a whole night. When he was washed ashore, he found himself on a stretch of coastline not 50 miles from his home. Incredulous that his ordeal was over, he gave thanks to God for his deliverance and vowed to become a priest. He had chosen the road that would lead to his martyrdom.

The P.O.D is that Patricius’ Irish captors recognize the value of a trilingual literate slave, and instead of setting him to menial work, they use his gifts in their diplomacy with Roman Britain. The nature of Pat’s escape is also different, an act of divine intervention, rather than OTL’s cunning escape. A fundamentalist is born…

10 points if you can identify all the semi-legendary/historical figures mentioned.

(1) Lancaster
(2) Louth
(3) Carlisle

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by EvolvedSaurian

I like it. I'd really like to know more about this religion(s?) is set up and what some of the beliefs are... what it's called, for that matter.

Initially it won't have a name, it'll just be "our religion". I need to do a little bit of linguistic work to get its later name (not easy when it means I have to completely change the development of a language in which I can only say the phrases "Kiss my Arse" and "our day will come").

The beliefs evolve, but I'll deal with them more fully in a couple of days. One interesting fact is that 7th century Christian sources talk about magicians with a belief in reincarnation in contemporary Ireland!

Now that, my friend, is a gift from history...

[boynamedsue]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

Nice opening. This will have consequences for the rest of Europe as well.

Massive butterflies as we enter the 6th century, by the 7th the whole place will be a mess!

It's a strange feeling to know that you've killed Charlemagne... a thousand generations of *French schoolkids will love me!

[TheDarkMessiah]

Great new chapter.

The good thing about such a POD is that the differences seen in society will be even more stark an interesting than a usual POD, not to mention it is focusing on a subject which really interests me.

As for recognising the names, I got Lughòs, probably named in honour of the Tuatha, Lugh. Probably a few others I can spot but i'll let other people do that since i'm lazy

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

So, "Old King Cole" or "Coel Hen" was a Brigantes chief?!

[Jaded_Railman]

I'm interested on this.

What sources of information do you have about Ireland's pagan religion? I know not much survives and a great deal of our 'understanding' comes from looking at other Celtic religions that we have some more information about.