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  #141  
Old December 23rd, 2009, 05:33 PM
rast rast is offline
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In January 1918, Beatty had complained to the admiralty that the new shells had not yet been delivered. Have they now?

Last edited by rast; December 23rd, 2009 at 06:37 PM..
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  #142  
Old December 23rd, 2009, 05:54 PM
Eternity Eternity is offline
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For the sake of me not being arsed to re-write everything to date, yes. Why not?

Besides, if they are not it is a GF wank of extreme proportions. I would like a crippled HSF at the end of the day one that can't be used later on in this TL.....

Due to damage/loss that can't be put right by this stage in the war! Not a 'Plan 19' scenario!!!
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  #143  
Old December 23rd, 2009, 08:24 PM
rast rast is offline
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Mh, what I can find is the very vague statement that 'in 1918' the RN exchanged the old shells for the new 'Green Boy' shells for the heavy calibre guns.
Do we really think that after Beatty complained about not having them in January, they all have been delivered and exchanged two months later?
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  #144  
Old December 23rd, 2009, 10:04 PM
Eternity Eternity is offline
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Probably not, but I can't find any info either. Not even Castles of Steel or Dreadnought have anything on the shells in them! I would ahve thought Massie would include the data if he knew it. Pity.
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  #145  
Old December 24th, 2009, 07:10 AM
rast rast is offline
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When regarding the OTL inactivity of the GF in 1918 and reading Beatty`s suggestions to abstain from any action, one is inclined to suppose that the new 'Green Boys' came just in time for armistice (which also is 'in 1918').
So, perhaps the British Army was correct in stating to Beatty & Co.: "We gave you the German Navy."
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  #146  
Old December 24th, 2009, 07:59 AM
juanml82 juanml82 is offline
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Interesting timeline, although I wish to see the political ramifications later on which, IIRC are the main goal of this TL.

Of course, not having the slightest idea on shells, battleships and, for the sake of it, ships in general, I can't contribute to it at all.
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  #147  
Old December 24th, 2009, 09:24 AM
Eternity Eternity is offline
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Perhaps that is true rast, but unless we can find official records we are only guessing. I would like to know for sure however.

As I did say, without them the GF has no chance vs the HSF in this scenario so I still think it best that at least these squadrons have the new shells. The main GF won't be in combat in this TL. Sheer will run before fighting them as we both know. That way, half of the GF has the shells, half does not. Makes it more believable tha way as not all ships would have got them at the same time. One squadron would have got them at a time.
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  #148  
Old December 24th, 2009, 11:11 AM
HMS Warspite HMS Warspite is online now
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Good discussion, but I suggest to give the Grand Fleets its desired new shells, at least partially.

More problematic is that the damage created by the weapons is a bit unlikely, as mentioned before. All WW1 vintage ships are not very well designed to take on underwaterdamage, appart form the German ones. The USN and Royal Navy capital ships of the period 1906 - 1918 are most likely to be crippled by any single torpedohit, as mentioned before. More hits will nearly always be fatal. Only German Capital ships design was advanced enough at this time, to cope with such damage, due to their more extensive internal layout.

Shelldamage is a bit overexagerated. Most damage by shells is smaller, than mentioned in the scenario, as a lot of shells tended to be duds (historically) in the first place, while it also very much depended on where the shells struck the target. More important is that capital ships are not very well matched to defend themselves agfainst fast light craft, such as torpedoboats. Secondaries are only good on paper, as they are not placed very well in the ships, and their gunnery controll is very rudimentary at best. In most cases, only a true escort force of destroyers and fast, light cruisers, is good enough to defend a line of capital ships against fast torpedocraft. Capital ships on their own, are at the mercy of the smaller craft.
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  #149  
Old December 25th, 2009, 08:26 PM
Dilvish Dilvish is offline
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Eternity,

I am liking your story. Admittedly I think some of it is over the top, but that helps make it a good read. I'm also wanting to make up a wargame scenario of the sortie now.

A few questions and comments. I am wondering if the ranges given are extreme for the North Sea. What I have read about the North Sea and seen in naval wargames is that visibility can be limited. Of course, there can also be good days where the visibility won't be a problem. A possibility for your scenario is the weather and/or seas worsening. All the gunfire and fires would cast a pall of smoke over the battlefield, also affecting visibility.

How many light ships and light cruisers has the HSF lost, or have been severely damaged? The losses in light forces could have a greater effect on the German war effort than the heavy ship losses.
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  #150  
Old December 26th, 2009, 09:31 AM
Eternity Eternity is offline
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Hi Dilvish,

The ranges that ships open fire at are the maximum gun ranges, then ships swap targets sometimes at much closer ranges. The maximum visibility ranges are naturally dictated by things like Earth curvature, weather conditions, battle smoke and so on.

Earth curvature at sea level means a maximum visibility of something like 26 miles I recall. It was a book about Yamato and her main guns so that may have been the visibility range from the top of her bridge tower but I'm not sure. Seems about right based on other books. Either way, 18 miles at sea level is within acceptable visibility range.

Battle smoke can blow away fairly quickly in gusty weather. If a ship is steaming at 18 knots/21 mph, with about 25 seconds between salvos (Germans I think, fastest definatly) then unless you are sailing with the wind, the gun smoke should have cleared before your next salvo and as such I am ignoring it. I am also using a clear day with no fog or low lying clouds to simplify matters for myself!

I did work out ranges but messed it up and had to write it all down and re-check my calcs to correct. If I add in clouds and fog it will just confuse me even more! Once I have finished writing, I may go back and add in added detail though.

Re: Ship losses.

It is about to change again, but as of the posted story:
US BBs have lost 1 sunk (Delaware). One heavily damaged, still in combat (Florida).
UK BCs have lost 2 sunk (Australia, Princess Royal). Three heavily damaged and retiring (Inflexible , Indomitable , Renown).
UK CAs = None lost.
UK DDs = Started with 96. Down to 40-50 in combat. QE's adding another 48 but not yet in combat.

HSF BBs = None lost
HSF BCs = None lost. One heavily damaged and hiding (SMS Derfflinger) and one in trouble (SMS Von der Tann).
HSF CAs = None lost.
HSF DDs/TBs = Started with 150 ish. Lost 10 in Channel. Now have 40 or so still in combat.

Note: Still in combat means fighting, not afloat. Several DDs/TBs from both sides are still afloat inbetween the fleets. They are being ignored as they are no longer in combat Live ships are somewhat more important! Some are sinking, some will be repared and make it home after the battle, although badly damaged.

The Germans have lost a larger proportion of their small craft vs the British because the German DDs/TBs did their torpedo charge and concentrated on the British BCs & American BBs. They basically arrived a few at a time in the combat area and had both big and small ships shooting at them, thus incurring disproportinate losses. The Germans decommisionned all older ships in preperation for the sortie, so there are spare (If not as good) ships back in port that can be re-activated and temperally replace some of the losses.

The CAs from both sides are only in combat against destroyers at the current time, so they are being ignored by the big ships, hence no losses or damage to speak of so far. The CAs are also with the HSF BBs and RN BCs. Once those sides come with cruiser range the cruisers will be targetting each other..... Among other ships.....
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  #151  
Old December 26th, 2009, 12:21 PM
rast rast is offline
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Compared to OTL torpedo attacks in the Great War, the results here look rather realistic in terms of hits scored. That British or US vessels would be in dire trouble once hit has already been stressed.

Looking at the small craft: Yes, the German torpedo boats would come under fire from the British DDs as well as from the BCs and US BBs. However, other than ramming or torpedoing, the British DDs would have great problems in actually sinking German torpedo boats (also true the other way round), while the middle artillery of the large ships would most probably have not scored at all.

Having spent their torpedoes, the German boats (with their huge numerical superiority) would engage the British DDs and rather soon put them out of action.
At the stage we're in now, none of the British DDs should retain notable combat power (although most might still be afloat) - und the German boats still would be in the process of reducing them to scrap iron, as there's nothing else they can do without torpedoes.

Last edited by rast; December 26th, 2009 at 02:00 PM..
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  #152  
Old December 26th, 2009, 01:02 PM
Grey Wolf Grey Wolf is offline
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Plunging fire is of course better at extended range - if it can achieve a hit

Main armament at short range tends to punch right through, which can be useful in searing a bridge or conning tower away, but more difficult to do significant damage to a large warship

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
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  #153  
Old December 26th, 2009, 10:06 PM
HMS Warspite HMS Warspite is online now
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I can suggest to have the actuall lost DD's and Torpedoboote much smaller than mentioned before, but these vessels are to be effectively out of action, once they have expended their torpedoes and are of limmited other uses anyway. German Torpedoboote are not known to have great artillerypower, as are most British contemporary DD's in the scenario. The USN has no real destroyers at this time, as most are still in the buildersyard by this time. (In the OTL the USN was lagging far behind in destroyers, compared to both Germany and the UK. The ships in this class were completely inferior to those of the Brtiish and Germans as well, when designed and constructed, but in large numbers available in the post Great War.)

Gunnery range is overexagerated, as theoretical range is not possible in normal service, given the conditions at sea. Weather and seaway effect the gunnery range. Accuracy is also a problem, as the firecontroll on the 1918 period capital ships is not very accurate and it is simply a waist of ammuntion to continue to fire at great ranges in this period. By the time the range is close enough to get a reasonable chance to hit something, the dreadnought will have emptied its magazines. Most admirals were still opposed to distant gunnery, and prefered close range action.
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  #154  
Old January 1st, 2010, 08:13 PM
Eternity Eternity is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Wolf View Post
Main armament at short range tends to punch right through, which can be useful in searing a bridge or conning tower away, but more difficult to do significant damage to a large warship
As I recall from a documentary about HMS Hood and the DKM Bismarck. The historian said that after HMS Rodney and King George V had silenced the Bismarck, the kindest thing they could have done was withdraw and shell from afar to get plunging fire, and thus sink her rather than pound her from close above the waterline.
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  #155  
Old January 1st, 2010, 09:22 PM
rast rast is offline
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Due to German construction history even penetrating plunging fire would not result in sinking the vessel - due to excellent 'space management'.
It was possible to put German vessels out of action - but sinking them was quite another story - if the crew didn't decide to scuttle the ship.
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  #156  
Old January 1st, 2010, 09:34 PM
HMS Warspite HMS Warspite is online now
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I agree with the statement that gunfire alone is normally insufficient to sink a German capital ship of the Great War period, or after it. They were constructed to absorb damage quite well, while the vessel was to remain afloat and likely survive, although propably out of action. German shipdesign is quite advanced throughout the 20th century, where most capital ships were to outlast, rather than outgun their opponents, normally accepting a lesser fightingpower over sturdy and sollid construction.
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  #157  
Old January 2nd, 2010, 04:24 PM
Eternity Eternity is offline
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That's true. I think this historian was on about the plunging fire touching off the Bismarck's magazines like Hood's though. Not to sure as it was a few years ago now! Mind you, that probably wouldn't have worked as I believe that all of her magazines had been flooded to stop explosions!
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  #158  
Old January 4th, 2010, 11:19 AM
Eternity Eternity is offline
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OK. New update. Sorry for not doing one over Christmas but my life has been thrown into slight turmoil - I am having to do alot of things at home quickly. Won't affect me writing at work though!

New update is from the HSF BCs/US BBs view and covers 20 mins initally, but briefly covers the following 90. Tried to keep it realistic as usual, but I think some of you may see this update as total bull!

------------------------------------------------

March 22nd 1918
09:20 till 11:10 ~ German Battlecruisers

Kzs Mommsen knew that the SMS Von der Tann was in trouble as soon as he was told that the steering was un-responsive. He was steaming at flank speed directly for the American battle line. Four battleships were shooting at what seemed to be him! At the range which Admiral Hipper wished to engage them, all the shells fired by both sides exited the guns and seconds later passed clean through the enemy armor plate. At the range of engagement, the armor plate may as well be tissue paper. That said however, it did negate the effect of the American armor plate so both sides were doing equal damage to each other.

That was not the current major problem for Kzs Mommsen however. His steering was disabled and he was steaming at 24 knots directly towards the American battle line! At the range of engagement that Admiral Hipper wanted - 1 Nautical Mile - It would take the Von der Tann only a few minutes to reach that line and pass through it. If the Americans did not alter course, he would potentially ram one of their ships. A quick mental calculation told him that it would be one of the last two ships in the line. The USS Wyoming or the USS Florida, already seriously damaged.

On both the USS Wyoming and USS Florida, the immediate seriousness of their situation became immediately apparent. They watched as three of the German Battlecruisers turned broadside to them at one nautical mile distant, and watched in disbelief as the lead ship, smoking heavily from onboard fires continued straight on - directly at them. All of the American captains had done quick mental calculations and worked out that the lead two ships - the 14" armed USS New York and USS Texas would be out of danger but that the 12" armed USS Wyoming and USS Florida would be at risk. As such, the Captain of the USS Wyoming ordered a slight change in course and speed to allow him to continue firing broadsides at the German ships, but so that his ship drew out of danger.

On the USS Florida, things were not so simple however. She was seriously damaged and although she was still in the fight, she was in trouble. Not in immediate danger from sinking due to her damage, she was considerably less maneuverable than the other ships in her squadron. Her captain ordered evasive maneuvers and although her guns still fired at the Von der Tann, the mathematics were against her. She could not turn fast enough in her damaged state and at 9:23am she was rammed amidships by the Von der Tann still steaming at 24 knots.

------------------------------
The USS Florida carried an 11" main armor belt, but against a 21,000 ton ship steaming at 24 knots, it had no chance and, as the Von der Tann smashed into the Florida she tore deep into the ship causing massive flooding and structural damage - before pushing her way completely through the Florida's hull and exiting the other side. For a few seconds it seemed like the Florida's keel had remained intact as it was below the keel of the Von der Tann due to the water she had already taken onboard, but as the Von der Tann pushed through, the two halves of the Florida twisted apart and it was obvious that her keel was broken. From the second of the impact between these two ships, the Florida's fate was sealed - As was that of the Von der Tann. This was because the Florida was listing, and then the Von der Tann smashed into her, the Florida rolled over slightly raising the side the impact occurred on. This caused the hull below the point of impact to rise into the Von der Tann's hull bottom and rip it open for the first six compartments before it sheared apart.
------------------------------

On the bridge of both the Von der Tann and the Florida, neither captain could quite believe what had happened. In the few seconds before the Florida started to roll back towards the Von der Tann and break up, both captains were on their bridges and surveying the damage and as the Von der Tann passed, their eyes met. Both recognized the shock and disbelief in each other's eyes before they set about abandoning their ships.

On the USS Florida, no order was given to abandon ship - but then neither needed to give one. When the ships collided both were rocked violently. The Florida rolled 30 degrees in a few seconds and almost everybody on board was thrown off their feet. As they got up they could hear the ship groaning as she broke up and took on water and the crew abandoned of their own accord. Chaos reigned.

------------------------------
In her after half, already partially flooded due to earlier torpedo hits, the additional flooding in the engineering spaces was too much for the hull to take and it rapidly started to settle. Within minutes it had gone, leaving less than 50 survivors in the water. The scene in the forward half was not much better. Rapid flooding through the aft bulkheads sealed the fate of the bow half, but it did remain afloat longer than the after half as it had received less flooding during the battle, and took 15 minutes to sink. From the forward half of the ship, there were some 400 survivors. There should have been more, but in the damaged and rapidly flooding hull, with no lighting it was nothing short of a miracle that 400 men made it out before the bow capsized, pointed skyward and slipped beneath the waves. There were some 450 survivors from the USS Florida out of a crew of 1001 men.

The situation onboard the SMS Von der Tann was equally as severe as on the Florida. She was flooding aft due to the damage that she had received earlier, and the shock of the impact had caused a deck girder to collapse and short the generators, stopping the electrical supply to the ship for the time being and in turn disabled the pumps. This meant that the Von der Tann was flooding with no way to remove the water for the time being. She was however fortunate in some respects as the ramming of the Florida had completely destroyed the forward three compartments, and stripped the armor belt off the fourth. The main armor belt had held, but this was only started in the fifth compartment. This meant that although they were flooded, no more water could enter them and pull her bows downward. Water was however streaming into the fifth compartment through the watertight bulkhead and it was doubtful whether damage control could do anything to stop it without the pumps. The double bottom had also been punctured in the fifth and sixth compartments and water was seeping into her hull there as well, but not as fast as through the bulkhead between compartments four and five.

The impact had been like the ship hitting a wall. From 24 knots she decreased speed to 5 or so in a matter of seconds, before picking up again as she pushed through the Florida. Everybody was thrown forward and many hit forward the bulkheads of their compartments. In addition to disabling the electrical generators, the force of the impact shattered steam, water and fuel pipes and twisted many fittings and mountings. Even if she survived, she could never be fully repaired again without a major rebuild. She was flooding aft from her previous damage, and forward from the ramming, and as such, she initially started to settle on a relatively even keel. With her guns out of action due to an absence of power to operate them, the crews abandoned them and set about attempting to save the ship. They formed bucket gangs to remove the water from the fifth compartment by hand to help the damage control teams as they fought to save the ship, but she gradually settled lower and lower in the water by the head. A severe problem, for as soon as the water reached the top of the bulkhead it would flow over and flood the fifth compartment, sealing the fate of the ship. The heavy flooding forward did have one benefit however. It was raising the stern out of the water enough to ensure that the stern would stop flooding and that some of the water already in the stern would pour back out.

After the impact, Kzs Mommsen immediatly ordered the engines stopped. His ship was out of combat for now he knew. No sense in attracting attention for the time being he reasoned. When the damage reports came in, they showed that 'A' turret was jammed by debris from the Florida, the forward compartments were destroyed, the rudder could not be repaired but the electrical generators could and the engines were still functioning. As such, he decided that once the Americans were out of the area, he would slowly go astern as this would not put pressure on the forward bulkhead, and attempt to ground his ship on one of the islands to the South. At least he could save his crew by beaching his ship - assuming the bulkhead held and she stayed afloat that long.
------------------------------

Onboard the remaining three German Battlecruisers and three American Battleships, every member of crew who could see what was happening stood rooted to the spot - their eyes glued to the unfolding scene. Not a single shell was fired from the time of impact for a whole minute - Until Admiral Hipper tore his eyes off the spectacle and ordered his guns to open fire again. At the same time he sent a signal to Admiral Scheer and the Admiralstab. The signal was brief. "SMS Von der Tann rammed American Battleship. American sunk, presumed Von der Tann will founder too. Position....." Further detail could wait for the after combat report he would have to make later.

By 9:40, the German Battlecruisers were past the American battleships and had formed line abreast so that they all could continue to fire on the American ships with their stern guns. Nobody was paying any attention to the SMS Von der Tann now as her guns had fallen silent and her crew fought to save the ship and their own lives. They had been joined by some of the survivors of the USS Florida who had swum to the Von der Tann after their ship sunk. They figured that they would die in the cold waters of the North Sea long before rescue came, so they were quite prepared to help the Germans save their ship if it meant saving their own lives in the process. Among the men to reach the Von der Tann was the Captain of the USS Florida. He and Kzs Mommsen would both survive the war and become good friends in the years to come.

In the meantime, the Americans were livid. They had lost two of their ships for one German one and had turned and were perusing the surviving German Battlecruisers at full speed, but at 5 knots faster, the German ships were steadily pulling away from their pursuers. Safe for now, Admiral Hipper requested another damage report from his remaining ships.

The SMS Hindenburg was in relatively good condition all things considered. She had many holes in her armor and above decks. Most of the cranes, boats and above deck fittings were shot away along with both her masts. Her 'B' and 'D' turrets were out of action. 'B' turret's magazine had been flooded and 'D' had suffered a direct hit as a shell was being loaded. The turret was burnt out and required dockside repairs. This magazine had also been flooded and she had also been holed under the waterline in several places. All of this had resulted in some 500 tons of water now being carried in the hill, reducing her speed to 22 knots. She only had one 5.9" gun fully operational - the forward starboard one under the bridge and only two 3.4" guns were still fully operational - the after two under 'C' turret. All of her other secondary armament guns were damaged or destroyed to some degree. By 9:40, all of her fires were out however and the damage control crews were busy patching up the ship as best they could, starting with the holes near to and below the waterline.

The SMS Moltke, in addition to her disabled 'B' and 'C' turrets, her 'E' turret (Port wing) was disabled through a hit when she was broadside to the American ships, her aft super-structure had been completely shot away with the aft mast and all of the ships boats. The forward mast had sheared off slightly above the top of the forward funnel and she had been holed on the port side below the waterline in several places and had taken on 200 tons of water reducing her speed slightly. Most of her secondary guns were also disabled or destroyed as well.

The SMS Seydlitz, already hit hard by the combat against the British Battlecruisers, had been hit as equally hard by the American Battleships. Her aft super-structure had been hit and burnt out, destroying the aft mast (Its base had melted due to the heat) but that fire was out. The four light guns below it had been evacuated due to the intensity of the fire, but were now manned again, although two of then had been damaged. Her aft funnel was also shot away above the armored base and in addition to her disabled stern turrets, an underwater hit had penetrated the forward magazine. Although the 14" shell had been a dud, it had flooded the magazine rendering 'A' turret useless in combat. At 700 tons, she had also taken on more water than the other two ships and her speed had been reduced to that of the Hindenburg - 22 knots.

Although they were still in pursuit of the Germans, the American Battleships had faired little better than the Germans due to the close range of the battle. They had all been hit hard by the Germans, and suffered extensive damage to some systems. The USS Wyoming had had her aft mast hit, and the director on it had been burnt out. She had also taken hits in her amidships turret area that had disabled both of those turrets. The lower had burnt out and the super-firing one had taken two shell hits on the barbette that had completely jammed it. She had also suffered numerous hits throughout her hull that had gutted compartments and caused fires, but all of these were out by 9:40am and luckily none of them had caused serious flooding.

The USS Texas and New York both had lattice masts, and as such, neither one had suffered serious damage to them. The USS Texas had had her forward funnel seriously damaged, and debris had fallen into and onto the air intakes in that area, forcing her to reduce speed by 4 knots until they could be cleared. She had also had her forward super-firing jammed by a hit that passed clean through the barbette - fortunately without exploding. Most of her amidships secondary guns had also been damaged or disabled during the close range battle. Her sister, the New York, had almost suffered a amidships magazine explosion that would have caused the loss of the ship, but quick and brave action by the turret captain had sealed and flooded the magazine thus saving the ship. The cordite in the barbette had exploded however, completely burning out the turret - but the ship had been saved. The turret captain would be posthumously awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for staying in the turret and saving the ship. She had also been holed below the water, and having taken on 400 tons of water, the New York's speed was reduced by 2 knots.

The remains of both fleets had had their relative speeds reduced by two knots, so they were parting at 5 knots. By 9:40am, the German ships were 2 miles away from the American ships and drawing steadily further, although they would be in range of the American guns until they turned into their swept channels through their minefields an hour later. The American ships would break off combat at that time and turn to engage the approaching German Battleships. The sporadic fire between the German Battlecrusers and American Battleships would cause additional damage and loss of life to all ships in the next hour, but no further ships would be seriously damaged or loss. Admiral Hipper did not know it, but he had accomplished his orders superbly. Two American Battleships lost for one German Battlecruiser, and the Americans were so enraged by the loss of their ships that they would peruse the Battlecruisers and not attack Admiral Scheer's forces for one precious hour.

------------------------------
Neither Admirals Hipper or Scheer would know it until later, but the Von der Tann slowly started to go astern. Starting 30 minutes after the collision, at 10:10 she slowly started to creep South, towards the Island of Spiekeroog. Her pumps had been partially repaired, and with the help of the bucket gang, she was almost breaking even. The water was only very slowly making headway into the ship. It would take an hour for the ship to creep to the island and ground, but once she made it 1100 souls on the ship would be saved. Some 850 Germans and 250 Americans that had swum to her. To all of those men, all that mattered was making it ashore alive.

------------------------------------------------

Note: Shells may not do too much damage in a close battle due to the flat tajorectory they are fired at. They would struggle to damage a ship below the waterline and APC shells may pass straight through a ship without detonating, or over the decks and carry away equipment.

The US Lattice towers are relativly undamaged as shells would pass through the lattice. I know that they can be damaged/destroyed by storms, but that is by them catching the wind not a shell!

Comments welcomed as usual.

Last edited by Eternity; January 5th, 2010 at 07:50 AM.. Reason: Update
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  #159  
Old January 4th, 2010, 11:53 AM
rast rast is offline
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One would expect SMS Von der Tann's captain to fire a torpedo or two at USS Wyoming.
Although the bow and stern tubes had been removed after Jutland, those at the broadside still were active.
The 45 cm torpedo was not as powerful as the 50 cm one of the torpedo boats, but good enough to do some nasty damage - and that at close distance, can't miss the target!

At 24 knots SMS Von der Tann can be expected to plow straight through USS Florida, cutting her into two.
Von der Tann had 15 watertight compartments and a double bottom. She would eventually sink with the engines and all pumps out of action, but this would take time...
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  #160  
Old January 4th, 2010, 01:31 PM
Eternity Eternity is offline
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Quote:
One would expect SMS Von der Tann's captain to fire a torpedo or two at USS Wyoming.
Although the bow and stern tubes had been removed after Jutland, those at the broadside still were active.
I thought all the BCs TTs were taken out after Jutland. Well, minor mistake! lol At that close range you will see that I have given all the ships relativly clean decks - as in the fittings etc blasted off. It would stand to reason in my mind that Von der Tann would have lost her deck mounted TTs at that close range through them being shot off as well.

The Florida's rock back would have punctured the Von der Tann's double bottom relativly easily - It is believed that the same thing happened to the RMS Titanic when she clobbered an iceberg. An "upshoot" on the iceberg tore a hole through her double bottom in the damaged compartments. Pity we can never know due to the inaccesable nature of the wreck as I could use the info to see if it was a realistic possibility.

If however the Florida was split clean in two, then she would:
a) Have sunk much quicker. I capsized her in 10 mins. Split in two, expect it to be only a few minutes for the more damaged half to sink.
b) Her two halves to be pushed apart and not damage the underside of the Von der Tann.

Item 'b' is one reason why I did not have the Von der Tann split the Florida in two - so I can inflict more damage to the Von der Tann and have her sink quicker. I will re-write that part however and see which you folks like more!

Query/Thought..... If the Von der Tann lost all electrical power, her main guns would stop firing (No power to load, train etc) so she would be ignored as a target. If she stayed afloat till after the battle - basically adrift, and the Derfflinger came across her..... Could she have been saved or would the Derfflinger sink her? Progressive flooding aft (light) and forward (Medium) with WT doors shut would mean 4/5 hours sinking time at least. The forward compartmants would be crushed so slowish flooding aft of those compartments which would be completly flooded.

David.
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