Go Back   Alternate History Discussion Board > Discussion > Alternate History Discussion: After 1900

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old November 9th, 2009, 12:51 AM
CalBear CalBear is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a house on Sol-3
Posts: 1000 or more
The Anglo/American - Nazi War

Here is the start of a T/L inspired by some recent reading I've been doing on Hitler's plan's for Europe AFTER he won the war.

The conceit here is that this is supposed to be part of a 2010 book on the war between the Western democracies and Nazi Germany in the early-mid 1950's (haven't quite locked down the exact dates yet since they will depend on how detailed this gets.

I have no idea how long this will be, or just how detailed the end result will get.

As always, comments are actively sought.


Preface


Before examining the actual final conflict between the Western democracies, chiefly Canada, Great Britain, and the United States and Nazi Germany, it is worth reviewing the circumstances that brought the world to that critical juncture.

In 1939 Nazi Germany, then also called the “Third Reich” or simply the Reich, had initiated the European Phase of the Second World War with the invasion of Poland, At the time of the invasion Germany was in a state of near alliance with the Soviet Union with Soviet oil and agriculture providing much of Reich’s fuel and food. Poland was supported by both France and Great Britain and the two Western states had made clear that an attack on Poland would lead to war. It has long been debated why the Democracies waited until the Polish crisis to confront the still developing German war machine, but the decisions made in both London and Paris in late summer of 1939 were resolute and both nations believed that their combined power would be sufficient to deter Adolph Hitler’s Germany from aggression against Poland. On September 1, 1939 Hitler demonstrated his contempt for, and disbelief in, the Democracies statements and warnings when the German military (or, as it was known at the time, the Wehrmacht) crossed the international frontier separating Germany and Poland, and unleashed an early version of mechanized warfare against the Polish Army. Shortly after the Reich’s invasion of Poland, its quasi-ally the Soviet Union entered Poland and annexed a significant portion of the country’s eastern provinces. Strangely, this action caused no reaction by either the British or French governments while those of the Reich were responded to with declarations of war.

Despite these Declarations, and the fact that Hitler had focused well over 80% of his total military strength against the Poles, neither France nor Britain made any serious attempt to attack Germany at this point of greatest vulnerability. Much like the decisions made as early as 1936, this failure to act has been the subject of enormous debate among military professions for almost three generations with no consensus having been reached beyond a general agreement that the period from September through mid-November 1939 represents one of the great missed opportunities in military history. Considering the results this failure must also be considered to be one of the starkest tragedies in human memory.

Following a period of time dubbed the Phony War by the era’s media, German forces invaded Norway in March and then attacked France and the Low Countries in May of 1940, achieving strategic surprise despite the existing state of war between the Germans and the Democracies of the West. Much as had been the case in Poland in 1939, German mobile tactics, built around armored formations supported by air power, proved to be insoluble by Allied commanders. While the failure of the Poles to contain and defeat German spearheads can be at least partially explained by lack of proper equipment, the same can not be said for the inexplicable collapse of both the British and French armies which had equal, if not superior equipment, especially in the area of tanks and motorization. Whatever the cause, the Reich’s invasion of Western Europe was a stunning and rapid success. By the end of June 1940 Germany and her Italian ally controlled all of Western Europe save the British Isles, Iberian Peninsula, and Switzerland

While Germany was demonstrating a stunning efficiency, their Fascist Italy partner was showing nearly the exact opposite. Whether the result of poor civilian leadership, or a case of Military General Staff incompetence on a grand scale the independent Italian war effort proved to be a disaster for the Italian people. An ill-advised adventure into Greece was retrieved from defeat solely by the intervention of Wehrmacht forces sent by Hitler to save his Italian ally. Unfortunately for Rome Hitler proved to be unwilling to send German forces to Africa when Italian forces found themselves overmatched by British Commonwealth forces in the North African Desert. When the British, with the support of “Free French” political leaders, used Italy’s attacks into the Middle East as a pretext to seize French Colonies in the region and depose the pro-Axis Shah of Iran, Hitler presented Mussolini with an ultimatum demanding that Italy take no further actions outside of Europe until the Bolsheviks had been defeated or face the loss of all German support. Faced with the prospect of losing his gains in Greece and the portion of France that had been ceded to Rome by Hitler as spoils, Mussolini relented. The resulting low level naval war in the Mediterranean persisted until the end of active hostilities in Europe without causing any significant impact on the war’s outcome. The end of German activity in the Mediterranean Theater also marked the effective end of active combat with Commonwealth Forces in all areas except the North Atlantic, where Germany waged a serious, and quite nearly successful submarine warfare campaign against shipping headed to Great Britain.

In June of 1941, after nearly a full year of preparation, Germany launched Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of its erstwhile ally, the Soviet Union. Thanks, in large part, to the remarkable failure of Josef Stalin to react in any reasonable manner to pre-attack intelligence reports regarding German build-ups on the frontier pre-invasion and Stalin’s post invasion ham handed intervention in the actual conduct of Red Army operations German forces made huge gains in the war’s opening months before the first year’s campaign was brought to a close by the Russian winter. The winter of 1941-42 was where the Reich’s year long preparation for Barbarossa first bore fruit. Having anticipated defeating the Soviets in the war’s first few months, the Germans had amassed a large amount of winter uniforms and equipment for the expected occupation forces (and, unknown to most of the Wehrmacht’s planning staff, Einsatzguppen detachments) that allowed German ground force to endure the very poor conditions better than the shattered elements of the Red Army.

In December of 1941, following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor (covered in detail in Volume II) Germany declared War on the United States. While this put Germany into a state of war with the UK, USSR and U.S., the situation was not nearly as severe as first glance would indicate. The Reich had begun construction of massive defensive fortifications along the entire French Coast. Foreshadowing the horrors to come more than 80% of the labor engaged in construction of the so called “Atlantic Wall” and other German military facilities in the Occupied Territories was provided by what can only be described as slaves brought in to do this manual labor from Poland and culled from among Russian PoW’s (in direct violation of the Hague Agreements). By early 1942 these fortifications already made any thought of attacking into France via the capture of a port virtual suicide. Combined with the general lack of preparedness of American ground forces in the winter of 1941/42 Germany did not face a true two front war danger for at least a year and a half from the time of America’s entry into the war. It was time the Reich spent very well.

In the spring of 1942 the German’s resumed their offensive in the USSR. This offensive met with nearly the same successes as in the previous year. . In the early summer a drive toward the Caucuses was undertaken, including a serious drive to the Volga. The key position in this southern section of the Soviet Union was centered on the City of Stalingrad. For reasons both practical and symbolic the engagement here was determined to be one that neither side could lose. Losses on both sides were dramatic, beyond anything seen to that point in the European Phase. It was not until October 12 that German forces completed their isolation of the city’s defenders when the took what both sides had come to call “The Crossing”, the only location on the western side of the Volga where Soviet reinforcements could land in support of the City. Loss of the crossing meant inevitable loss of Stalingrad. While small units of Red Army force fought until early January, the inability of the Soviets to resupply the forces in the city made the heroic stand of these small units all the more tragic. Moreover, the capture of the Crossing released better than 240,000 troops of the 6th Army for duty along the rest of the Volga line before winter fell.

Stalin, never the most forgiving of leaders, reacted violently to the loss of his namesake city, Most of Stavka (the Soviet High command), including Marshall Georgy Zhukov, perhaps the most forward thinking Soviet commander at the time along with Marshall Timoshenko, the head of the General Staff, as well as virtually every surviving general officer and Commissar on the Southwest Front received a six minute trial, followed by a bullet between the eyes. These actions, even more than the actual loss of the City and use of the Volga, were to prove a disaster to the Red Army, one from which it was never to fully recover.

Shorn of most of its planners and leadership by Stalin’s fit of pique Operations Jupiter and Mars, the Soviet attempts to counterattack in March of 1943 were an unmitigated disasters, with Red Army losses totaling over 850,000 men killed, wounded, and captured. When Stalin died on March 23rd 1943, reputedly of a heart attack, although persistent rumors exist to this day that the death was anything but natural, the power vacuum atop the USSR led to a general collapse of Soviet resistance as NKVD and Red Army units fought for position and personal survival. When Beria’s NKVD faction was defeated by a group that had Foreign Minister Molotov as figurehead, the situation had deteriorated to the point where the USSR was forced to seek terms from the Reich.

Unsurprisingly, these terms were well beyond harsh and both eviscerated the USSR and greatly enhanced the German state. The bounty received by the Reich was staggering, ranging from Soviet gold reserves to fully operational munitions factories to thousands of tons of raw material and supplies that had been produced in American factories and sent to the Soviets as part of Lend-Lease. The remarkable amount and quality of the Lend-Lease materials is reputed to have caused Grand Admiral Raeder of the Kreigsmarine (as the German Navy was known at the time) to state “maybe we shouldn’t have sank so many of those Murmansk convoys!”. While the accuracy of this legend will never be known, it would have been an accurate statement.

The State of the War in the West 1942-43
__________________
Eddie would go!

They thought that was an alien? Really? Jesus tap-dancing christ the standards for "alien" have dropped dramatically - Nietzsche

Last edited by CalBear; November 9th, 2009 at 03:09 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old November 9th, 2009, 01:01 AM
Jasen777 Jasen777 is offline
Martyr Without a Cause
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1000 or more
Interesting start, look forward to more.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old November 9th, 2009, 01:28 AM
kojak kojak is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 620
I'm definitely subscribing to this thread.

Keep up the good work, CalBear.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old November 9th, 2009, 01:44 AM
mrmandias mrmandias is offline
Regent
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 1000 or more
Good stuff. Subscribed.

final conflict between the Western democracies, chiefly Canada, Great Britain, and the United States


Seriously? Given your TL title I thought it was going to be the democracies vs. the Nazis, but this says that ultimately the democracies turn on each other.

the “Third Reich” or simply Reich

Is calling it 'Reich' instead of 'the Reich' some ATL thing or just a mistake?

a significant portion of the country’s eastern proveniences

provinces?


__________________
God and Spain, motherf***
-the Ninth Crusade
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old November 9th, 2009, 01:49 AM
CalBear CalBear is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a house on Sol-3
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmandias View Post
Good stuff. Subscribed.

final conflict between the Western democracies, chiefly Canada, Great Britain, and the United States



Seriously? Given your TL title I thought it was going to be the democracies vs. the Nazis, but this says that ultimately the democracies turn on each other.

Guess I need to clean that up a bit. The title is correct
Quote:
the “Third Reich” or simply Reich
Quote:

Is calling it 'Reich' instead of 'the Reich' some ATL thing or just a mistake?


Mistake (corrected) Thanks

Quote:
a significant portion of the country’s eastern proveniences
Quote:

provinces?


Triple damned spell check!


Thanks for the comments.
__________________
Eddie would go!

They thought that was an alien? Really? Jesus tap-dancing christ the standards for "alien" have dropped dramatically - Nietzsche
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old November 9th, 2009, 01:57 AM
mrmandias mrmandias is offline
Regent
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalBear View Post


Thanks for the comments.
I only bother nitting when a TL has me hooked. Good work.
__________________
God and Spain, motherf***
-the Ninth Crusade
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old November 9th, 2009, 02:07 AM
TheDarkMessiah TheDarkMessiah is offline
Moderatorem Princips
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Whoring Quarters
Posts: 1000 or more
Send a message via Skype™ to TheDarkMessiah
Oh, good start, I am very interested to see where this leads.
__________________
┌∩┐(⌐■_■)--︻╦╤─ - - -

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99lives View Post
For me, it was like watching X-Men directed by Guy Richie.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old November 9th, 2009, 02:11 AM
Workable Goblin Workable Goblin is offline
Spacepony
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Low Equestrian Orbit
Posts: 1000 or more
The last bit is confusing. Stalin carries out a purge against STAVKA, correct? Zhukov et. al. imprisoned or killed?
__________________
Eyes Turned Skyward: An alternate post-Apollo space program
Where the Heart Is: MLP/Homeworld (offsite)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old November 9th, 2009, 02:13 AM
RandomIdeaGuy RandomIdeaGuy is offline
I'm a real boy!
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Metroverse
Posts: 1000 or more
Send a message via AIM to RandomIdeaGuy Send a message via MSN to RandomIdeaGuy Send a message via Yahoo to RandomIdeaGuy
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalBear View Post
Most of Stavka (the Soviet High command), including Marshall Georgy Zhukov, perhaps the most forward thinking Soviet commander at the time along with Marshall Timoshenko, the head of the General Staff, as well as virtually every surviving general officer and Commissar on the Southwest Front.
I think there are some words missing there
Oh, and subbed. I like it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augustus Montes View Post
The Law of Conservation of Mass and Conservation of Energy exist in this universe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambyses The Mad View Post
They bend before the almighty Law of Narrative Causality.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old November 9th, 2009, 02:31 AM
Blizrun Blizrun is offline
Mile high
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1000 or more
Send a message via AIM to Blizrun Send a message via MSN to Blizrun
Since when did Hitler suddenly become competent?
__________________
56th Brigade - the last line of defense is a group of over-the-hill men and women.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old November 9th, 2009, 02:38 AM
CalBear CalBear is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a house on Sol-3
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizrun View Post
Since when did Hitler suddenly become competent?
He didn't, not really. He just decided that finishing off the Bolshies, which was always his biggest goal, was not going to be derailed by the Italians.

He is still his insane self. Boy, is he still his insane self.
__________________
Eddie would go!

They thought that was an alien? Really? Jesus tap-dancing christ the standards for "alien" have dropped dramatically - Nietzsche
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old November 9th, 2009, 02:39 AM
CalBear CalBear is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a house on Sol-3
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by truth is life View Post
The last bit is confusing. Stalin carries out a purge against STAVKA, correct? Zhukov et. al. imprisoned or killed?

Thanks for the catch.

Fixed it.
__________________
Eddie would go!

They thought that was an alien? Really? Jesus tap-dancing christ the standards for "alien" have dropped dramatically - Nietzsche
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old November 9th, 2009, 02:45 AM
jose1357 jose1357 is offline
In Myer We Trust!
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kapolei ,HI
Posts: 323
Send a message via AIM to jose1357
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomideaguy View Post
I think there are some words missing there
Oh, and subbed. I like it.
Concur, never says he has them sent to a Gulag, Lubyanka or killed... good start though!
__________________
"Gentle when stroked - Fierce when provoked"
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old November 9th, 2009, 02:53 AM
RCAF Brat RCAF Brat is offline
Vanguard of your destruction
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dark Space
Posts: 1000 or more
You misspelled Admiral Raeder's name.

Other wise very good. This could be an "interesting" alternative to your Pacific War TL. Which really needs and update.


Just saying.


But if you can bring about a 1950s slugfest between the Nazis and the free world, that just as good.

Please let MacArthur be stuck in Japan (As 'The American Shogun', of course. That is the only real good that he ever did, so...) and thus be unable to "contribute" to this war.
__________________
"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it. You will end because we demand it."
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old November 9th, 2009, 02:56 AM
King Thomas King Thomas is offline
Has Learned His Lesson
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Whitstable,UK
Posts: 1000 or more
Send a message via AIM to King Thomas Send a message via Yahoo to King Thomas
I want to read more.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old November 9th, 2009, 03:08 AM
CalBear CalBear is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a house on Sol-3
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCAF Brat View Post
You misspelled Admiral Raeder's name.

Other wise very good. This could be an "interesting" alternative to your Pacific War TL. Which really needs and update.


Just saying.


But if you can bring about a 1950s slugfest between the Nazis and the free world, that just as good.

Please let MacArthur be stuck in Japan (As 'The American Shogun', of course. That is the only real good that he ever did, so...) and thus be unable to "contribute" to this war.

I will NEVER give MacArthur an even break, that is a promise.

I will get back to the Pacific War Redux T/L, but this one has been nagging at me for a while, so...
__________________
Eddie would go!

They thought that was an alien? Really? Jesus tap-dancing christ the standards for "alien" have dropped dramatically - Nietzsche
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old November 9th, 2009, 03:23 AM
RCAF Brat RCAF Brat is offline
Vanguard of your destruction
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dark Space
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalBear View Post
I will NEVER give MacArthur an even break, that is a promise.

I will get back to the Pacific War Redux T/L, but this one has been nagging at me for a while, so...
So he will be stuck in Japan while everyone else does the job right and gets the glory. And then MacArthur will end up as a footnote. Which is better punishment than just killing him off, of course.
__________________
"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it. You will end because we demand it."
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old November 9th, 2009, 03:25 AM
Father Maryland Father Maryland is offline
Enemy of Neo Secesh Everywhere
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Grand Duchy of the Chesapeake
Posts: 1000 or more
I suggest we crown Calbear the king of Military TLs.
__________________
On hearing news of North Carolina banning Great Danes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redem View Post
North Carolina governor Bev Perdue is finally getting revenge on those meddling kids
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old November 9th, 2009, 03:27 AM
T3h_shammy T3h_shammy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tallahassee
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Marylander View Post
I suggest we crown Calbear the king of Military TLs.
While I do agree the Pacific War Redux is high up. Lets reserve judgment on this one for now. It has started out epically however! Kudos to you Calbear!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old November 9th, 2009, 04:32 AM
Blizrun Blizrun is offline
Mile high
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1000 or more
Send a message via AIM to Blizrun Send a message via MSN to Blizrun
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalBear View Post
He didn't, not really. He just decided that finishing off the Bolshies, which was always his biggest goal, was not going to be derailed by the Italians.

He is still his insane self. Boy, is he still his insane self.
Then why does he delay Barbarossa by a full year?
__________________
56th Brigade - the last line of defense is a group of over-the-hill men and women.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.